A6.0 Feedback: OXYGENATED ROOMS

Yay!!

err... hows that now??

If I'm understanding then on Akua with a breathable atmosphere, then I _shouldn't_ lose O2 if I open a hole to the outside? 'Cause, well, the O2 levels are the same on both sides of the wall/floor/ceiling... I mean that makes sense intuitively, right?

Not trying to be snarky, just scratching my head trying to understand why, if I -do- open a hole I lose O2, and while I'm in a sealed base (helmet off) I use up O2 (on Akua).

I'm guessing every use case hasn't been coded yet, and that's fine, you guys are working hard on lots of stuff so no worries.

Just bringing up that, for me anyway, I'd expect that the Ventilator would have logic that would check for breathable outside atmosphere (if exposed to the outside on at least one face of course). And if outside _is_ breathable, and _is not_ poisoned (radiated fog), then 'circulate/ventilate' BA/SV/HV/CV using outside atmo.

Not sure if the Ventilator is intended to act like "Central Heating and Air Conditioning" or not?
If so then logic could include a 'temp' bit where if outside is too cold or hot then close up and run off O2 tanks.

Note: for the bit below I do know that, right now, the Ventilator is capable of re-capturing all the O2 in a space, limited to available room in Tanks, regardless of _pressure_. Problem with that is that it means that a Ventilator should be/is able to refill/create O2 _Bottles_ and that seems illogical as those actions would require serious compressor power, and a building "ventilator" needs to be high _volume_ low pressure.
-- Medical portable O2 tanks are typically filled to 2000 psi
-- Scuba tanks regularly get filled to 4000+ psi. A multistage compressor capable of filling these runs $3000.00 plus.
-- Pneumatic tools typically run at 100 psi. A handyman Home Depot compressor for these maxes at 125-150 psi and runs maybe $200.00.

Anyway. If the Ventilator were to act as a low pressure compressor, then it could only partially refill the installed O2 Tanks (compared to their being stocked now w O2 Bottles). So O2 Tanks on Akua could then act as resevoirs for the outside atmo, and if sized correctly, then you'd never need to manage them. Radiated Fog hits, Ventilator closes off, switches to using O2 Tanks(resevoirs), fog passes, Ventilator opens up and starts to slowly refill O2 Tanks.

In other words, not suggesting that a Ventilator could/should refill/create O2 Bottles that the Oxygen Generator creates.
So if the Ventilator was capable and set to 'recharge O2 resevoirs' then (if using same/current O2 Tanks) then those tanks could only be 'charged up' to say 20%. You could still stock Tanks the other 80% with the same blue O2 Bottles we're using now... hope that makes sense..?

 

Can we make sure that elevators are sealed, or add a new type of sealed elevator tube, I usually have elevators to the roof to reach a turret or a SV and dont want to have to build a small shack with a door on the roof just to accommodate an elevator in a sealed room.

Can a description also be added to each block on mouse over to indicate if it is air tight or not before you place it.

 

I solved the elevator to roof issue by just placing the smallest air sealing building block I could choose onto it, or a door. Can also try removing the last elevator block and place down a door or shutter horizontal (aligned with the roof). Might have to jump up though. Could also do angled blocks around the entrance., with the door furter down (180 degrees rotated). Probably other solutions too, without doing much changes to current build.

 

Any basic building block no matter how small will block air from all directions. This limits what blocs can be used where... please make a little more sophisticated .
In the below Pic, you can see the back of one room is blocked by the "Ramp Bottom" block.

 

I like that there is an oxygen system as it removed the need to constantly click the O² station. The current implementation however feels a little... minimalistic.

- The rules for which room is oxygenated is unclear. Visual or audio indicators on the ventilation or hull breaches would be helpful.
- It is unclear which blocks are air-tight and which are not. For example the storage box seems to be air-tight, while visually it is clearly not.
- There should be an option to drain oxygen from the atmosphere of a planet to refill your tanks.
- The ventilation system drains too much power. I feel the constant need to switch it off, as it saves hours of fuel time.

 

could we please get a delay on plants dying? I dont thing plants should die from a 2 second accidental powering off of a CV. 128 plots instantly dead.

 

That and I think that plant lights in general should not switch off when I press T with the new system. No one ever wants to switch off plant lights.

 

Speaking of plants dying instantly.. How about a better way of changing the location of a core? Having to worry about plant die out because i want to move the core stinks.

 

I recently discovered this behavior and I agree that the current mechanism for determining if a block is airtight is too simplistic. If I can walk my character through the opening, then surely it cannot really be airtight!

It might be possible to implement an improved mechanism that considers a block on a face-by-face basis. For example, the ramp bottom could be airtight on the face that is fully occupied, but not on any other faces. Then surrounding blocks having faces with shared edges could be considered. This "all or nothing" approach on a per-face basis is still kind of crude, but it would be an improvement. A step further could be to take into account the geometry of both blocks on opposite sides of a shared face - both could be non-airtight by themselves but with holes in different places, and could be airtight together.

 

So, I've discovered a really bloody serious problem:

1. You have to power off a CV to have a BA repair block work on it.
2. Powering off removes o2.
3. This kills all your plants (no o2 / temp control)

Can something be done about this? I really don't want to have to set up farms in every playfield just so I can have food / backup sprout production when my shipboard farm dies.

 

This is getting huge. For survival-mode builders in SP and MP, it is getting much more challenging to get up and running.

I feel there should be at least an hour or so of time to work with the power off. If the plants are that sensitive to changes in the environment, they would have failed in the 22nd century as a viable option for space-travel....

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the new features. The progression of new content, and balancing is going very well IMO. This is really a tribute to the excellent and fast development of the game.

I did notice that BPs are spawning with all the plants grown and healthy, even with power off and no O2. It seems there is a grace period similar to the structural integrity buffer time. So, you can spawn a BP, add O2 and fuel, and get started.

 

I agree with the previous two posts regarding pressurization and dead plants. And while plants DO need O2 to survive, they produce more of it (over a full day/night cycle) than they consume, but I'll save that for another post another time.

I think the problem here is that the ship immediately depressurizes when the power is shut off. It doesn't just leak, though... it goes back in the O2 tanks! Well that's pretty silly IMO, especially because it would take power to pump the O2 back in. I'm fine (for now at least) with the idea of a ventilator keeping the atmosphere sustained in a given airtight compartment. But instead of just O2 or no O2, there should be measurable and controllable O2 pressure. (For now, let's just pretend that no other gasses matter.) The varying amount of pressure should have different effects on players and plants. It should take time for the ventilation system to make changes to that pressure.

When you power the ship off, there is no reason that the pressure should automatically and immediately be lost. But perhaps the force fields on airtight doors become inoperable, and if those doors are opened, THEN pressure is equalized on both sides (or lost into space, as appropriate). I don't want to have to build airlocks everywhere, but it might be worth having a small airlock in case you want to go in or out of a structure while the power is off. And while the power is off, the O2 levels would not be actively maintained, but O2 would still be present and could still be consumed for as long as it lasts. There could also be a small leak rate. Similarly, temperature should not immediately change.

Down the road, I'd like to see more complex atmospheric chemistry and mechanics, with options perhaps for maintaining an earth-like atmosphere of primarily N2 and O2, or more something more exotic. And Co2 removal (including plants in the process). Atmosphere controls could also involve temperature, humidity, etc. Different plants could require different growing conditions, giving players a reason to have multi-room greenhouses with individual environmental controls.

 

I was tempted to create a new thread entitled "Plants in Space," but I suppose this thread is just as likely to get the attention. Some facts:

1. "Plants" (as we know them on Earth) consume CO^2 as part of photosynthesis
2. Plants EXCRETE O^2 as part of photosynthesis (as a "waste" product).

Beyond that, even just here on Earth the complexity and alternative configurations of plant physiology and adaptations on Earth is too complex and esoteric for me to trouble myself. I do see some sources claiming that, "in the dark," "plants," "produce" [which probably means excretes] relatively more CO^2. This appears to be a result of a process called "photorespiration," which I think I learned the basics of about 40 years ago!

One last point deserves to be clarified:

The atmosphere of Earth is 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen and ~1% trace gases. Apparently the "healthy" range of O^2 concentration in breathable air is 19.5 to 23.5% [but I think that is in part bullshit, because the Apollo missions used 100% O^2 content during spaceflight <though with a a 60% N + 40% O^2 concentration at launch . . . done so that the internal cabin pressure could be sufficiently high but without the fire risk>]

Technically, plants should NOT die when the atmosphere in a base/ship is "deoxygenated." I think it is almost certain that plants would die in a vacuum (or very low pressure atmosphere), and they would also die in an environment outside their temperature tolerance.

With the latter sentence in mind, the present dynamic by which plants die when there is a breach in an airtight compartment is not egregiously unrealistic. I can empathize with the desire, in fact the NEED, to not make these game mechanics overly complicated.

I would suggest that plants die when they are not in a breathable atmosphere, simply because the pressure and temperature may be insufficient. If there was a desire to make the mechanic more exact, then the actual pressure and temperature of the air in each block could be plugged in and plant death would only happen outside the healthy tolerances.

Whether this should happen rapidly or slowly? So complicated to say, but in general a system that is LESS annoying to players would seem to trump "realism." -> make it an hour and give the player warnings.

I'm not a botanist, but from my standpoint as a biological anthropologist, I agree with everything you say. However, one issue I'm curious about and would appreciate if you could elaborate:

<<while plants DO need O2 to survive, they produce more of it (over a full day/night cycle) than they consume, but I'll save that for another post another time.>>

Is that really true? It may or may not be, I'm not certain. Obviously anaerobic organisms do not need oxygen, but if memory serves all "plants" are aerobic respirators . . . however, my understanding was, that doesn't necessarily mean they "need" atmospheric oxygen? Oxygen exists in the soil too, and it may be that the necessary quantities can be acquired from that source? I really don't know, but I'm curious: what is the lowest oxygen content in which Earth plants can live?

I know that they actually do BETTER in high CO^2 environments . . .

 

The O2 room system has been working really flawlessly for what i can tell. Just 1 thing i'd hope changing is that some doors are not airtight. Especially the glass doors i would use much more but they leak. You have force-fields in place anyway so why not have all of them airtight?

 

Actually i hope that the option stays that some doors are not air tight. Simply because i use those glass doors for small rooms and not having the issue to have to put a vent in there.
I understand why you want that, maybe you want to have the glass doors on the outside on some builds by chance? I guess for that reason it would be good to have a door of each type that is airtight and the same doors which are not. Maybe even a toggle/switch in the Doors menu to make them airtight or not. That way you don't have twice the numbers of doors in the menu.

 

You can still use the shutter windows. You can make sort of ventilation tunnels inbetween rooms, and i think it would be far better way to pass oxygen in between. But 1 ventilator in CV uses 20kW, which is nothing in the total of 2.5MW it uses while ship is landed and thrusters off. Also if 1 room gets breached, had i not isolated them could vent air out of whole ship at once.

 

There are times when I'd like to be able to set the "air tight" feature separately from the appearance of the door. Why can't I have a glass air-tight door with the blue shimmery field holding everything in?

 

Because you don't want this feature all the time.