INFO & FEEDBACK [A11] New Flight Mechanic and Techniques

Discussion in 'FAQ & Feedback' started by Hummel-o-War, Oct 27, 2019.

?

Did you understand the explanations and how the new Flight Mechanics and Techniques work?

  1. Got it!

    45 vote(s)
    78.9%
  2. Not really. (Please comment on WHAT exactly you did not understand!)

    12 vote(s)
    21.1%
  1. Hummel-o-War

    Hummel-o-War Administrator
    Staff Member Community Manager

    • Developer
    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2015
    Messages:
    9,977
    Likes Received:
    14,807
    Hey everyone!
    A big part of the upcoming Alpha 11 is not only the CPU Points, but also the new tech and mechanics that are going to be changed/added with the global topic "New Flight Mechanic"

    This includes the following changes/additions:
    • Virtual Drag (physics) influencing the vessel top speed
    • Aerodynamic Lift (physics)
    • Thrusters generating Torque (Roll, Pitch, Yaw), based on their placement (game tech)
    • Boost-capability for Thrusters (game tech)
    • Increase absolute, technical max speed (game tech)
    We have also updated the HUD and added new ways to display some of the aforementioned values ( as far as they are relevant for the process of "flying").

    Please have a look here for all the details: [A10.6] New Pilot HUD
     
    #1
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2019 at 9:38 AM
    DASHEDM, Arkudo, Robot Shark and 3 others like this.
  2. Hummel-o-War

    Hummel-o-War Administrator
    Staff Member Community Manager

    • Developer
    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2015
    Messages:
    9,977
    Likes Received:
    14,807
    I. GAME TECH

    1. TECHNICAL MAX SPEED

    As of Alpha 10.6, the technical (game-limited) max speeds are: ( planet / space in m/s )
    • Hover Vessel: 50 / 3
    • Small Vessel: 70 / 200
    • Capital Vessel: 60 / 150
    Technical max speed = relates to rendering, collision and other game parameters. This is the absolute max speed that you cannot go over by any means (if cou can, it is possibly not intentional and a bug ;)

    TECHNICAL max speed should not be confused the TOP SPEED of your vessel. The latter can be much lower than the technical max speed. See chapter about VIRTUAL DRAG for more info.


    Note: The given values for the technical max speeds are those that "work" with the game and create the least of issues. We have some ideas on how to increase technical max speed, especially on planets, but this is not yet ready for A11.

    2. BOOST-CAPABILITY of THRUSTERS

    Most of the thrusters* now offer the capability to BOOST the ship speed for a short amount of time.

    The most important things to know:

    • The HUD is showing the load status with a circle below the MOVEMENT element on the right side of the HUD (see screenshot in the 1st post of this thread or in the HUD info thread!
    • The BOOST will load up only when the vessel or the thrusters are On/powered.
    • The boost is available in ANY direction for which a boost-capable thruster is available. Said that, BOOST is not an "afterburner" tech, only accelerating the ship forward, but BOOST can also be used to the side,up or down or even for backward, for example to come to a full stop faster. Given a boost-capable thruster is available for this direction, of course!
    • The Boost will NOT bring you above the technical max speed or the top speed of the vessel (see explanation of VIRTUAL DRAG further below), but BOOST-ACCELERATE your vessel towards the TOP SPEED of your vessel. Using Boost while you are already at TOP SPEED is only wasting your boost
    • Boost, technically spoken, is a multiplier to the actual THRUST value of the thruster.
    KEY Kombo to use:
    • LeftSHIFT+DirectionKey (For example SHIFT-W, -A, -S, -D )
    The BOOSTERS will fire, as LONG as you keep the key kombo pressed OR until the boost is consumed. Then it will take a while to load up again.

    Boosting does not consume extra fuel or energy at the moment and it is also not visible by an extra effect on the thrusters, yet.

    *Currently some standard and JET thrusters have this capability. This might be subject to change. For example only JET thrusters might get that capability to make it a specialization for SVs over CV and BA.

    3. THRUSTERS generating TORQUE

    Ahead of A11, ONLY the RCS was adding the "torque" for these movements.


    With Alpha 11 the thrusters will add torque as well!

    Most important things to know (simplified):

    • Spreading out the thruster from the center of mass of the vessel will increase the torque
    • Depending in which direction the thruster points and where it is placed, it will add its torque to roll, yaw or pitch
    • Unlike the BOOST, torque will be added by ANY thruster (JET and Standard)
    This means:
    1. You do NOT need an RCS anymore to roll or pitch or yaw your vessel!
    2. An RCS is no longer a required device in any vessel! (which saves you CPU Points as well)
    The calculation itself depends on a lot of factors ( inertia tensor of the ship, the positions and orientations of all the thrusters of the ship compared its the center of mass,..etc) BUT information about what amount of torque is contributed by RCS and/or Thrusters is available in the STATISTIC tab of the control panel.

    Important NOTE: The thrust-torque always generates in relation to the planes created by the different axis spread from the CENTER OF MASS, not anything else!

    What means: Thrusters generate rotation around the two axes perpendicular to the thruster direction, with a stength proportional to the thrusters' distance from the center of mass. Ships always rotate around their center of mass.

    Example:
    If your thrusters you use to produce a Yaw are not exactly in the horizontal plane containing the center of mass, then this will generate mostly a Yaw but also some small Pitch and some Small Roll. If the ship is not able to cancel those other unwanted rotation (here Pitch and Roll) with some other thrusters it will cancel the rotation and not turn.
     
    #2
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2019 at 9:38 AM
    DASHEDM, Arkudo, Robot Shark and 3 others like this.
  3. Hummel-o-War

    Hummel-o-War Administrator
    Staff Member Community Manager

    • Developer
    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2015
    Messages:
    9,977
    Likes Received:
    14,807
    II. GAME PHYSICS

    1. AERODYNAMIC LIFT

    In Alpha 10.5, when you wanted to make use of a SV or CV vessel in Empyrion, you had to add about 6 thrusters - one in each direction for SV and CV (for HV only in the 4 horizontal plane).

    With Alpha 11 you can build a
    fully usable "plane style" vessel, which is propelled by only one backwards-facing thruster!

    Example: Our B2 and F114 Test planes in the following picture can actually fly with only backwards facing thrusters.

    Lift1.jpg

    (Of course having a forward facing thruster for braking, is still convenient ;) )

    The mechanic is pretty straight forward:
    As long as the ground-facing surface of your vessel is large/big enough, it might create enough uplift to allow your vessel to be leveled with the horizont and NOT drop to the grown as you are moving forward fast enough. (This is NOT a full real-world simulation of course!)

    If you vessel is heavy and you are going too slow and the shape is not really optimal (although you will not need a wing-only style vessel to make this work!!) you will not achieve the same performance and possibly drop to the ground. ;)

    We are looking forward to your designs. :)

    2. VIRTUAL DRAG

    The VIRTUAL DRAG, although it will have a lot of impact on the TOP SPEED (not to confuse with the TECHNICAL max speed of the vessel class; see explanation above) of your vessel and depends a lot on how you shape your vessel, is the feature that possibly requires the least of explanations.

    The system is very simple and can be put in between these two extremes:

    • If your vessel is build more like an arrow, you might be able to rise the TOP SPEED of your vessel up to the TECHNICAL MAX SPEED of your vessel type just by building and with only few thrusters.
    • If you build a flying brick, the TOP SPEED of your vessel might not even be close to the TECHNICAL MAX SPEED of your vessel type and you might need to reduce mass or increase thrust.
    This accounts for ALL movement directions, as well as for roll/yaw/pitch!

    Virtual drag takes into account the overall shape of the vessel.
    (Note that there is a known issue with so called "spiked" designs, which will be fixed soon)

    Why is it called VIRTUAL DRAG?
    Because it is NOT the physical (aerodynamic) drag alone, but a combination of a lot of factors. The term "VIRUTAL DRAG" is a hand term to describe the methods and factors used to define the TOP SPEED of your vessel (which might not necessarily range up to the technical max speed of the vessel type)!

    For example in space the single factor "drag", that you only have in an atmosphere, is of course not present, but other factors like mass and thruster capability are still weighted in.

    Why is this also affecting ships in space?
    The VIRTUAL DRAG to some extend compensates for the inevitable technical limitations of the game environment and engine. Also, as we do NOT want Empyrion to be a physics simulation, we cannot fully use real world physics and mechanics, for example thrust power, mass, volumes etc.

    By limiting the technically limit the technical max speed, we have to finde a middle ground between technical possibilities and a gameplay that is fun but not too simplified. The VIRUTAL DRAG (As well as other feautures) add a new challenge in terms of an additional balancing parameter - which can be overcomed either by building and design or by using CPU Points in terms of investing in thrust or RCS.

    The Virtual Drag values are planned to be visualized on the STATISTIC page or - together with the other flight mechanic values - on a dedicated, new Control Panel tab
     

    Attached Files:

    #3
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2019 at 9:44 AM
    yataro79, DASHEDM, Arkudo and 9 others like this.
  4. Hummel-o-War

    Hummel-o-War Administrator
    Staff Member Community Manager

    • Developer
    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2015
    Messages:
    9,977
    Likes Received:
    14,807
    III. STATISTICS INFO

    StatisticsFLIGHT_b2695.jpg


    TOGGLE THRUST/TORQUE checked = shows amount of Torque coming from Thrusters
    TOGGLE TORQUE SOURCE checked = shows amount of Torque coming from RCS

    Min. Lift-Off Thrust = Thrust required to lift your ship + cargo
    Remaining Thrust = Thrust you have at your disposal (for additional cargo); (Remaining Thrust = NettoThrust - Min.Lift-Off Thrust)

    Note: When "Remaining Thrust" goes negative, you will not be able to lift off or you will drop to the ground

    Maximum Speed = Max speed in FWD direction (Also displayed in Pilot Hud on the top right)
     
    #4
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
    DASHEDM and Space Beagle like this.
  5. Azule

    Azule Ensign

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2019
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    3
    Very nice, this was something i have felt the game needed. It will go a long way to helping differentiate the different classes of ship.
     
    #5
    eLLe likes this.
  6. Combat Wombat

    Combat Wombat Commander

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2017
    Messages:
    162
    Likes Received:
    179
    Is there a plan when movable blocks are added to allow you to make flaps and such to dynamically create drag/reduce lift for braking without a forward facing thruster?
     
    #6
  7. [BB]Drifter

    [BB]Drifter Lieutenant

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2017
    Messages:
    96
    Likes Received:
    62
    While I understand the intent I’m not convinced this is the best way to proceed. Assuming we are flying futuristic vehicles, and even including today’s existing technology, torque would only be likely with an engine where mass changes state ie, rotation.

    Thrusters, in my mind, simply provide thrust from chemical reactions out the orfice such as rocket engines currently do.

    The rest seems reasonable depending how it’s implemented at this point so I’m willing to give it a try. The rcs cpu points and weight could be lowered to allow usage without a total conceptual rewrite but let’s see how it goes.

    Impressed either way and keep up the good work!
     
    #7
    Siege Inc. and daddychillin like this.
  8. Welderold

    Welderold Ensign

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2018
    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    20
    I know at least one who hasn't understood thruster placement yet. @spanj just shows it in his stream. Eleon should ask these streemers are they "understand explains" before give them pre alpha versions.
     
    #8
    lorq von ray likes this.
  9. Myrmidon

    Myrmidon Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2016
    Messages:
    1,295
    Likes Received:
    1,752
    I think flight mechanics are more importand than the new CPU changes. Again try to keep things simple with new mechanics and not make this game a flight simulator, which is not. ;)

    If there are players among the community that want to see further implementation of close to real life mechanics, I suggest you guys must wake up and realise that EMPYRION IS A SURVIVAL GAME. Anyone want a flight simulator feel free to go find and play one.

    After all it is better for the developers to spend their time introducing new features regarding the survival aspect of the game and correct bugs here and there, than to waste time and possible money to bring simulation elements to a game that does not need them.

    So for me the new flight mechanics are welcome but I think, after the needed rectifying, it is enough, as it matters of the flight implementaion & representation aspects of the game.

    Finally, I think in terms of ranking vessels regarding their MAX speed, that should be from faster to slower :

    1. SV
    2. HV
    3. CV
     
    #9
    Track Driver and born4poker like this.
  10. Hummel-o-War

    Hummel-o-War Administrator
    Staff Member Community Manager

    • Developer
    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2015
    Messages:
    9,977
    Likes Received:
    14,807
    That would be awesome i think - will add this to the discussion list
     
    #10
  11. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    May 13, 2017
    Messages:
    3,434
    Likes Received:
    4,747
    I think it's simply a "flight simulator" simulator. Takes nothing "out" of survival, and adds reason to design variety now.

    I prefer :

    1. SV
    2. CV - can go fast in space
    3. HV -there can be trees in the way...
     
    #11
    Track Driver likes this.
  12. Jawatraders

    Jawatraders Lieutenant

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    57
    Likes Received:
    78
    Having a plane 'style' vessel seems really cool, especially since you'd only need one thruster. These new mechanics seem very promising
     
    #12
    Kassonnade likes this.
  13. RazzleWin

    RazzleWin Captain

    Joined:
    May 22, 2017
    Messages:
    644
    Likes Received:
    935
    But what will happen when it's in space? Do you still need an rts while in space to turn the ship? Or can a ship with one thruster even make it to space?
    While on a planet will your ship crash when a wing is blown off by a drone because of the aerodynamics?
     
    #13
    EstebanLB01 and krazzykid2006 like this.
  14. sillyrobot

    sillyrobot Captain

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2016
    Messages:
    391
    Likes Received:
    497
    I really have no idea any more what type of game Empyrion is, but a survival game it is not. Any game with vendors where you can buy stuff isn't much of a survival game. It's more like a playable sandbox with some limited building of stuff and shooting things.
     
    #14
    EstebanLB01 likes this.
  15. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    May 13, 2017
    Messages:
    3,434
    Likes Received:
    4,747
    Obviously, a 1-thruster SV will pitch/yaw/roll better with a RCS but it's not required. This was already possible before but very cumbersome to keep flying. Since thruster placement will influence how torque is applied, it's possible that it may be a better "CPU" decision to add a rcs than to add other thrusters for better pitch/yaw/roll.

    It looks like bricks can still fly, just not as well as "well made" ships. We will have a chance to "test" what this means soon, as it may be tied to center of mass + "shape", which can be a simple geometry "rule" to which ships would be compared to calculate its flight "capability", a bit similar to what they have done to calculate mass/ armor for different block shapes.
     
    #15
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2019
    RazzleWin likes this.
  16. RazzleWin

    RazzleWin Captain

    Joined:
    May 22, 2017
    Messages:
    644
    Likes Received:
    935
    Well it should be fun finding out all the answers to all our questions once we can start testing things. I have a few ship designs that I know I will just bust up laughing at when I find out how they respond now.
    Like when w&v was added. My hv's all tiled so had to change my design of those. At least now I have a nice HV that works well and can carry a load. But will it be ok still with the new system? I guess I will find out soon.
    I never tried making a 1 thruster sv before so that is going to be fun to try. Wonder if we will need runways for them:) Those trees might stop us from taking off. Or maybe pulling back on the stick too much might just flip you upside down. Good times ahead I think. With a few belly laughs tossed in :D
     
    #16
    Kassonnade likes this.
  17. Supay

    Supay Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2019
    Messages:
    151
    Likes Received:
    258
    10.6 looks interesting!
    I wonder will we see turbulence flying into orbit or coming into the atmosphere from space into a planet? Maybe in storms as well?
     
    #17
    banksman45 and daddychillin like this.
  18. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    May 13, 2017
    Messages:
    3,434
    Likes Received:
    4,747
    My guess is that they will take off the moment you press "forward" because lift & drag is only simulated. Like written up here :

    As long as the ground-facing surface of your vessel is large/big enough, it might create enough uplift to allow your vessel to be leveled with the horizont and NOT drop to the grown as you are moving forward fast enough. (This is NOT a full real-world simulation of course!)

    If you vessel is heavy and you are going too slow and the shape is not really optimal (although you will not need a wing-only style vessel to make this work!!) you will not achieve the same performance and possibly drop to the ground.

    So maybe it will just rub its retractable landing pads a bit before being airborne. Although I liked the 6-degrees-of-freedom provided with thrusters all around the ship, it was consuming fuel very quickly. This new mode allows to shut down all thrusters but the rear one for exploration/ travel while having benefits from "lift" to save fuel.


    And maybe just 1 or 2 small directional thrusters can be used for take-off and landing. Tackling POI turrets with this will not be easy if the ship can't strafe, but again all thrusters don't need to be active all the time. Like mentioned in the descriptions in OP the "lift" will not be calculated only for 1 direction, but for any direction the ship can have thrust, so even strafing can benefit from it provided the shape is adequate (think flying saucer = all directions give same "lift").
     
    #18
  19. JupiterVessel Corp

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2018
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    12
    definmetly need it to require runways to work and use a haver engine for a landing gear so you dont need wheels and length depends on a vessels drag and weight.
     
    #19
  20. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    May 13, 2017
    Messages:
    3,434
    Likes Received:
    4,747
    The suggestion has been made many times to get some "hover engines" also for CV and SV to allow low-level flight (ex. entering a hangar) without bumping on the ground or hitting low obstables like rocks. It's worth keeping asking. ;)

    But in any case, if a player builds a brick with only 1 back thruster, he surely can't expect to get airborne as easily as with a light and well designed "glider" shaped SV with also 1 back thruster. Players can still put some small thrusters under their ships for take-off. We only had 1 example of what is now possible to do with "torque" added to thrusters, but they also mentioned that thruster placement will now contribute to pitch/yaw/roll, which is another incentive to think about costs/ benefits of some trade-offs (thrusters vs RCS).
     
    #20
    stanley bourdon likes this.

Share This Page