Alpha 12.3 Public Release

Discussion in 'News & Announcements' started by Hummel-o-War, Jul 23, 2020.

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  1. Spoon

    Spoon Captain

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    If what @Asmodan says is true for all scenarios then for us beginners playing the game I think it's a step too far.
    I don't want to be constantly running from shielded CV's if I want to go to my moon.....
    It's hard to get "tougher" is you are spending all your time getting little bits of ores while dodging the CV's.
    It's also easy you you who have played thousands of hours on the game. You know the best tactics and the ins & outs of the game.
    Just imagine some newbie who gets this when its released to 1.0 and keeps getting killed every time they leave their starter planet... talk about bad reviews....
    They should have these CV's in other systems... Not the starter one.
     
    #101
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  2. Asmodan

    Asmodan Lieutenant

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    The Point is i can not get away. The moment i enter space the Zirax CV set a course to me and follow me everywhere. I can not mine asteroids or make POIs because the Ship is in my back.
     
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  3. Leftcoast

    Leftcoast Lieutenant

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    Have you tried using a small vessel? Go in quick, get more distance from the CV, mine and evade.
     
    #103
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  4. ChumSickle

    ChumSickle Captain

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    After a bit more playtime at the start, I agree the Zirax need to be nerfed back just a little in the starting system. I’ve managed to get a decent starter SV to try to gather more resources, but there is a constant threat, while trying to scrape up those few scarcer ores that a drone will show up, and if a drone shows up, his big brother will be following.

    Normally I would say this is the perfect rationale for turrets on an SV, to cover for you while you mine. But if we pop a drone only to have a bunch of his buddies soon show up and their big brother it’s going to make that first step to the stars pretty daunting for new players, and may cause a pretty negative reaction.

    I think that outside of the starter system, in other controlled areas, that response is absolutely fine. Would add a great degree of risk for infringing on territories. Would also spice up capital ship level mining to have to contend with system defenses.

    I get it, it’s survival. It’s not supposed to be >easy<. But I’ve got a month or so of experience and I’m struggling through it. But I can imagine a new player on their first play through would have an even more frustrating time.
     
    #104
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  5. Asmodan

    Asmodan Lieutenant

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    For testing i spawned a T4 Warp SV and warped to a new Asteroid playfield. Instead of the heavy armed and shielded CV spawned a Corvette which i could beat with the SV. I can mine and evade when i make it quick, but the problem remains. I don't like the mechanic of enemies constantly following me without provocation.

    Its like @ChumSickle wrote. I think this behavior would be fine if you are in Zirax (or Enemy) Territory, but not in Neutral Systems like the Starter System.

    I'm not a New Player. I have several Hours in this Game and know how get around this if i really want, but i think this is not balanced and should be changed.
     
    #105
  6. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    What @Leftcoast wrote : perfect advice.

    Edit : I see you already replied... Well sure it can get balanced again untile v 1.0.

    I did not play thousands of hours in this last version of "Hostile Faction chasing players non-stop" (who did ?) , and just a caveat here : number of hours doesn't give a hint about playstyle. Many players spend 90% of their "thousands of hours" in Creative, or in scenarios, etc. But many players new to Empyrion also have lots of experience in other games.

    I think it's more a question of : is it more important for me to survive, or to (insert whatever else can be done in empyrion here : farming, building, exploring, etc). ? While the game is not strictly survival, it has this componenet, just as any other games where the player can be killed has a "surviving" component, just a different model of it. Whatever the context, at some point players have to adapt, and when the game puts the player in a closed room with an almost unbeatable enemy, there is no option but to fight and try to understand patterns, tricks, and master the basics.

    But in Empyrion, it is free-roaming. And we outrun all other enemies with a basic SV. Why should "surviving" be so difficult ?

    Maybe because players have other expectations than just "survive and run" in situations where this is what should be done ? Here, player wants to stay in the system and get materials there. Is it absolutely necessary ?
     
    #106
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  7. Spoon

    Spoon Captain

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    My quote was "who have played thousands of hours on the game." mate. No mention of 'this last version'.....

    You missed off "Or they put the game aside, tell their mates it's rubbish and not play again."

    You start in a 'Starter System'.. Why have such an over overpowered enemy presence?
    People have different playing styles. If they like to play the 'constantly running away from enemy' game than that is good. I don't, so I'm saying it's too much. Put them in other systems... Not the Starter System.
     
    #107
  8. Brimstone

    Brimstone Rear Admiral

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    Haven't experienced it myself yet, but it would seem that the response needs to be weighted by player level and game type: lower in starter systems or far from faction territory; higher for upper level/faction territory/multiplayer
     
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  9. stanley bourdon

    stanley bourdon Captain

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    The problem I see with the over-aggressive NPC's in the starter playfields is, what is the point of all the rest of the playfields if you can get the full experience in the starter. This goes to the lack of a sense of progression in the game. there is no need to go out into the thousands and thousands of playfields if you get the full experience in the first 10.
     
    #109
  10. RazzleWin

    RazzleWin Rear Admiral

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    Is there even a way to stop them in space like you can on the planets?
    Or is this just going to be remake of the Fugitive and your always on the run?:rolleyes:

    Hey if it becomes to much of a PIA you can always remove the models so they don't spawn in. :cool:
    They can't kill you if they don't have a ship to shoot with.:eek:
     
    #110
  11. Khazul

    Khazul Rear Admiral

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    I would take this much further - the whole starting solar system should have it resources reevaluated as well. Current once you have an SV and a warp drive then you pretty much have access to lots of everything unless you get an occasional unlucky seed.

    To my mind game progress seems a right mess at the moment.

    As far as starter system orbits go - mostly I find it easy enough to evade PVs, but at the same time it kind of makes minimal early game (and even many mid game) CVs almost non viable now as if the thing catches up with you and starts shooting there is no escape without big enough guns to shoot it and decent thrust to mostly evade its shots.

    For me this basically means heavily armed SV carrying and HV miner (or armed mining SV with EE mod) and using that to acquire enough resource for a well armed and shielded CV.

    I also hate the instant self destruct and despawning - couple this will not being able to board and walk around a moving vessel then space PVs seem a boring and complete waste of time now (being unable to board them while moving mean they always were a waste of time TBH). Too much effort vs the minimal return coupled with way to many game issues/limitations - not impressed at all.
     
    #111
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2020
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  12. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    This was to show that even with thousands of hours, some situations can require learning again. I think I illustrated that a bit with how some players spend all these hours, but that is a bit off the main topic.

    Not all players, of course, because there are also all these in the "get good" category that enjoy an opportunity to tackle a new challenge. We can push many arguments relying on a generalization, but in the end it will not resist simple analysis.

    It's mostly a question of playstyle, yes. So why should the "get good" crowd not get its challenge so the "more casual" can have their way ? The devs have to please both, and make some compromise. You say that casuals will drop the game if too difficult? But what about the others who like a challenge if it's boring for the first 6 hours ? Those will not drop the game and ask for a refund after 1h59 minutes and tell their friends it's rubbish ?

    And how could a new player know that what he encounters in the starter system is equivalent to what he will encounter in the end game ?
     
    #112
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2020
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  13. Leftcoast

    Leftcoast Lieutenant

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    Yeah, I see your points. It also sounds like it would be nice too if they didn't automatically just detect you every time. Being sneaky should at least be an option too.

    Either way, I need to get motivated to check and then I'll have a better understanding.
     
    #113
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  14. Spoon

    Spoon Captain

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    If you read my posts mate, I do not say to remove it from the game. What I have stated is that it should be removed from the Starter System.
    As @stanley bourdon has commented about the "sense of progression in the game", this is throwing you in the deep end.
    If the end goal is to get to The Legacy System then it should get harder the closer you get to there. Or make it progressively harder the further you move from the Starter System.
    Basically keep the Starter System as a starter system....
     
    #114
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  15. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    First and foremost, this is a discussion on the topic of having a difficult pack of baddies in the starter system, so don't take any of these arguments I make as a critic against you or anyone discussing this. But behind every action and work in all human life, there is a reason. And here for this game there are reasons too for this "decision", and I can easily recall the same amount of critics for the game becoming "too easy and boring" just before they made some changes. It's like an old pendulum that never stops : todays it's too hard, with X reasons, tomorrow it's going to be the contrary.

    Was just telling to my kid this morning : "Can you tell me what is the first thing humans do when they are born ?" (answer... they open their eyes ?) - No : they complain"...

    So complaining is easy, but suggesting solutions is far more complex, but useful. Sending the pendulum the other way is not a solution, it has been tried so often that we can see people always complain whatever the context.

    But on the topic :

    What's wrong with having the Big End boss make an appearance at the beginning of a game, while you can escape anyways ? I can recall many games where this happens, and it sets the tone for the game. Thinking of Mass Effect 2, Mad Max, Witcher 1 and 2, Farcry 2, 3, Dragon's Dogma, Dishonored, Wolfenstein New Order... well I'm sure you get the idea. Although the setting is different, sometimes supported by cinematics, the principle is the same : show the player what he's up against, and get him hooked in the context.

    People asked a lot for a "story" in Empyrion, and now we have it, even if not "perfect". Here players are not against the wall, they still can evade and the "big boss" might not even scratch them if they play wisely.
     
    #115
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  16. ChumSickle

    ChumSickle Captain

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    I experienced it again...starter system, needing a specific type of ore...I even changed up my SV and added a turret to it for Drone defense (turned out to be borderline useless). About 5 minutes into mining I hear the blasts, quickly jump into the drivers seat and start shuckin and jiving like a mad man. A drone AND the corvette had shown up. Luckily, just blew a hole in the side of my ship. I limped back to the planet to try to scrape up enough credits for repairs...

    Again, I dont mind it being dangerous in space, especially in claimed territory. But dang...

    I would love to see just the drones pop up once in a while...no issue with jumping back into the cockpit and doing a bit of dog fighting.
     
    #116
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  17. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    Ore for what ?
     
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  18. ChumSickle

    ChumSickle Captain

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    Very good points, and I totally agree. Which is why I worry my "complaining" is coming across as too crybabyish. It isnt intended to be so, I assure you.

    I like space being more dangerous, and I like the direction they swing the pendulum. I think our issue is that they swung it a bit far when it was included in the newbie space.

    My solution would be one of any of the following:
    1. NPC response restricted to NPC controlled space
    2. Starter system excluded
    3. Drone spawn points set greater than detection range from space asteroids/POIs that are placed for the newbs to use (moon titan)

    Advanced constructor I believe. Needed cobalt.

    And dont get me wrong, I know there are possibly a dozen other ways/means to get what I need.
     
    #118
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  19. Spoon

    Spoon Captain

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    Yes complaining is easy, so is ignoring suggested solutions.
    My solution is, as I have said a few times, keep the Starter System as a starter system.
    People who want to battle early can warp out of the system. People who want to take it slowly can stay in the system longer. This benefits everyone.
     
    #119
  20. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    #120
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