Alpha 8.0 EXP: New Status Effects / Diseases

Discussion in 'Experimental Features Discussion' started by Hummel-o-War, Apr 19, 2018.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Hummel-o-War

    Hummel-o-War Administrator
    Staff Member Community Manager

    • Developer
    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2015
    Messages:
    6,957
    Likes Received:
    10,284
    While the change of the food and drop items is pretty straight forward, the new status effects and the medical items needed to cure them, have seen a nearly full rework for 8.0.

    Before you look at the full overview screenshot below, which contains nearly all status effects that can affect your player avatar, a quick info about the new status effects.

    4a. Staged effects
    In the old system, most of the status effects were isolated and had only very few connections like the Parasite 1-2-3 stages. This is now more of a standard.
    - There are up to THREE stages to each status effect
    - The Stage-1 effects are fairly easy to cure
    - The following stages are more demanding and show more severe effects (also spawning side-effects)
    - The initial status effects have a fairly long duration. The duration is significantly reduced with each stage, what means: if you do not take care early on, you can be in serious trouble soon.
    - There are a few "terminal diseases" that will not convert to another effect (Stage 3) and are very deadly (WiP Rule-of-thumbs: you can currently survive up to 100 real time seconds from full health)
    - The individual diseases of stage 1 and 2 are not that deadly as in 7.x, but certain status effects will start other effects or if you cure them, they will fall back to a lower stage instead of being fully healed.

    4b. Branches and medical items
    To handle the medical items typology, needed to cure the new diseases, we split the status effects into few very distinct "branches", which are colored accordingly in the overview below.
    - Antibotics
    - Antitoxin
    - Antiparasite
    - Antiradiation
    - Bones
    - Temperature

    Except for temperature (which is cured by food, beverages and so on), each branch also represents the medical item you need. Example: For the "Antibiotics" branch, you use Antibiotic Ointment, Pills and Injections.

    Note: Instead of a medical item or kit, you can also use a Medical Station (formerly known as "Scanners") in your Base (or any public base!)

    4c. STAGES

    Speaking of this, the STAGES have a simple and straight-forward logic which type of medical item is used for any status effect:

    Stage 1 = Ointments
    Stage 2 = Pills
    Stage 3 = Injections

    Overview of Status Effects and their Relationships
    +
    6 Branches: Bones (white), Radiation (green), Antibiotic (orange), Toxic (blue), Parasites (yellow), Temperature & others (black)
    + Usable Medical Groups (overview; see 2nd screenshot below for details)
    + Available Medical Stations: Each device of Type 1 - 4 adresses one or more branches (See color code)

    StatusEffects_24032018EXP.jpg
    (note: a full colored box with a margin in a different color means: full color = main branch, margin = secondary)

    4d. New medkits
    As we want to offer alternatives here as well - and in order to not overfill the inventory in mid- and late game - we also added three types of Medkits that are subsummizing the effects and medical items for each stage of a branch.

    That means:
    - With one of these kits, you do not need to carry around pills and injections and ointments for a branch, but just one kit.
    - Each kit is also offering a considerable health-points boost
    - Each kit does not cost the same amount of ingredients as the individual remedies combined would cost you, but is up to 50% more efficient!
    - In return, the crafting of medical kits takes much longer.

    The new medkits are set up as follows:

    - Trauma Kit = addresses all status effects coming from the Antibiotics and Bones branch
    - AntiToxin Kit = takes care of the Antitoxin branch
    - AntiParasite/Radiation Kit = combines anti-radiation and parasites remedies
    - Regeneration Booster = this not a real kit, but it is an easier-to-craft (compared to the kits) and non-perishable way to carry around a specialized "health points regeneration"-item.

    Overview of medical items
    MedicationGroups_finalEXP1.jpg
     
    #1
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2018
  2. Hummel-o-War

    Hummel-o-War Administrator
    Staff Member Community Manager

    • Developer
    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2015
    Messages:
    6,957
    Likes Received:
    10,284
    KNOWN ISSUES:

    - .. -
     
    #2
  3. Slavens

    Slavens Lieutenant

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2016
    Messages:
    71
    Likes Received:
    88
    I can't wait.



    No, really. I'm dyin' here.
    I'm sitting here staring at the [ |> PLAY] button with "should I fire it up and do a bunch of stuff that I want to get moving on started, or wait for Alpha 8 just in case the saves don't transfer?"

    <falls on the ground firing the Projectile Pistol into the air until the clip runs dry> AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!
     
    #3
  4. DarkFall

    DarkFall Ensign

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2017
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    5
    Land on the planet, get some food, second time I eat I get indigestion and travel in one direction trying to find an antidote. Die of food poisoning because someone doesn't seem to know that these two conditions are unrelated medically and they were obviously more concerned with putting a slew of upright dinosaur skeletons all over the place but a much-needed antidote is nowhere to be found. If you are going to make indigestion so prevalent that an antidote is required to keep from dying, for this game to be survival, you need the antidote to be a little more available or the game is just repetitive death, not survival. You need to change indigestion to something that actually can become food poisoning or you just seem silly for even suggesting it's a thing that is possible. Maybe just start with "Mild Food Poisoning" which becomes "Serious Food Poisoning" if left untreated and take out the impossible first stage. By the way, I ate 14 times and consumed more food in 2 game days than I eat in real life in ten days. I got indigestion 6 out of 14 times an went straight to food poisoning once. 50% illness rate from eating is just plain silly.
     
    #4
  5. Hummel-o-War

    Hummel-o-War Administrator
    Staff Member Community Manager

    • Developer
    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2015
    Messages:
    6,957
    Likes Received:
    10,284
    Did you check the forest for Spice? There is plenty around. This will cure Indigestion. (Or Herbal leaves as well).

    I will put together a list of the "natural remedies" and put it in the OP.
     
    #5
    WolfEyes likes this.
  6. DarkFall

    DarkFall Ensign

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2017
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    5
    The area I was in had small clumps of trees for a good distance and there was no spice in the areas I checked until after my first death when I found some about 9 or 10 kilometers out. There were a ton of skeletons and the same 2 types of food, but no spice. Honestly, I have well over 3000 hours in the game so I know how to survive, given half a chance. There is a problem with the math because I started keeping track and I am now over the 50% level for getting indigestion or food poisoning when I eat. It was every other time for a bit tonight and then one time I hit three in a row, but luckily I had picked up 5 spice plants that time. The problem isn't so much the mechanic, it's the frequency with which illness occurs. It should be the exception, not the rule. Also, unless I am mistaken, the two ingredients separately have better benefits that when combined. The only positive is the fact that you get a pill that has no expiration. That is a big positive, but with food burning up as quickly as it now does, those food benefits are extremely important and the pills are better suited for later in the game.
     
    #6
  7. Scoob

    Scoob Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2016
    Messages:
    2,799
    Likes Received:
    5,040
    I thought the recipe needed Spice (plentiful) and Herbal Leaves, which I'm yet to find.

    Edit: I saw in a video that Pixie Stalks can be found in Swampy Biomes...interestingly, that's the exact Biome type I'm in currently (well, not in game currently, but that's where I saved) and I'm yet to find any. Poor RNG luck on my part perhaps?

    Scoob.
     
    #7
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2018
  8. WolfEyes

    WolfEyes Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2018
    Messages:
    867
    Likes Received:
    1,125

    RNG = ?

    I'm stumped.
     
    #8
  9. arathorn867

    arathorn867 Commander

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2015
    Messages:
    162
    Likes Received:
    107
    @WolfEyes RNG = random number generation = procedural generation = bad luck and starving.

    I think the indigestion is a bit too frequent right now. If you get close to a big lake or an ocean, it seems like herbs are pretty common, and those can be eaten raw to cure indigestion. But maybe I got lucky with my world gen.
     
    #9
    WolfEyes likes this.
  10. WolfEyes

    WolfEyes Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2018
    Messages:
    867
    Likes Received:
    1,125

    Thanks. I was coming up with all kinds of "random" stuff but the "number" eluded me.
     
    #10
  11. old_guy

    old_guy Captain

    Joined:
    May 23, 2017
    Messages:
    193
    Likes Received:
    288
    Spice will cure it by itself? Or herbal leaves? How would one find that out ingame? Did I miss reading that somewhere? I only ask because you can't make the pills until you get a survival constructor, and by then it may be too late........<gasp>
     
    #11
  12. Diamaht

    Diamaht Lieutenant

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    48
    Likes Received:
    47
    So far the new status effect system is fantastic. It gives me a reason to stay supplied when I'm out and about, and it gives me the opportunity to deal with things before they get worse, great change!

    This applied to all of it tried so far except the temp system. It's been talked about in a thread down below, but may as well post it here too: the temperature ranges are too extreme at the moment. It's very easy (even on the starter planet, even near the equator) to have temps fall to 55 degrees or below. At that point you get too cold and your stamina and food drain like crazy. It's nice to have the option to sleep but that spoils most of the organics you spend the day collecting so you left with no food to start the day and spend that day collecting more. I love the fact that weather and temp have to be prepared for but 55 degrees is way to warm to start the kind of cycle that it does.

    Also noticing this at around 95 degrees, which is hot but it likewise wouldn't start that same spiral. I think the temp limits need to be changed. 45-50 for too cold, 35-40 for freezing/105 to 110 for too hot.
     
    #12
    arathorn867 likes this.
  13. arathorn867

    arathorn867 Commander

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2015
    Messages:
    162
    Likes Received:
    107
    It tells you in several places. The starter quest tells you, the item tip tells you, and I think I saw it somewhere else.

    Like they said in the release notes, there are a lot of changes in 8.0. It definitely needs balancing, but we also need to get over a learning curve. I've been playing since pre-alpha 2.0. There's always a group who thinks that a major overhaul is unplayable or the end of the world. It isn't don't get carried away everyone!

    Give honest reasonable feedback in the relevant threads and everything will be fine. But hyperbole helps nobody. (this is a general comment aimed at nobody in particular)
     
    #13
    WolfEyes likes this.
  14. Kurazarrh

    Kurazarrh Ensign

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2018
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    6
    The escalating status effects are interesting in concept, but they lend themselves to the ridiculous in some cases. For instance, upon happening across an egg and in need of food, I popped it in my mouth and instantly got indigestion. No worries, I’ll just spend an hour on the toilet later and that’ll be that.

    OH NO IT WON’T. After half an hour, indigestion becomes food poisoning. 18 minutes after that, it becomes a fever attack. 9 minutes later, I get organ failure and die. All because I ate a raw egg.

    Yes, I'm aware that eating spice or some herbal medicines will cure the indigestion before it becomes food poisoning, but the point is, it's a little ridiculous that I'm going to get organ failure from eating a single raw egg.

    My suggestion: perhaps eating a raw egg gave you like, 500 seconds of Indigestion, after which point it goes away. But if you eat another raw egg while you still have Indigestion, it extends that by another 500 seconds. Keep eating enough raw eggs while still living on the toilet, and after 1620 seconds of Indigestion you get Food Foisoning for 500 seconds. Still not long enough to lead to the Fever stage, but if you, for whatever reason, continue stuffing raw eggs in your mouth, that then extends the food poisoning period. And so on, so that eating a single raw egg isn't a death sentence that can only be overcome by eating a pepper grinder or Pixie Stix.

    Different foods or other things that induce Indigestion or Food Poisoning could then have varying degrees of effectiveness. A raw egg might be 500 seconds (or less), while raw meat might apply 800 seconds. This way, you get the status effect penalty for being stupid and eating raw animal products, but it doesn't get so ridiculous in the end.
     
    #14
    ITguy1981 likes this.
  15. arathorn867

    arathorn867 Commander

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2015
    Messages:
    162
    Likes Received:
    107

    Or maybe if it was just a chance of escalation? Plenty of people get varying degrees of indigestion and food poisoning every day. Some get it severely, a handful go to the hospital, and a fraction die. It definitely shouldn't be a guaranteed progression; a bit of unpredictability and randomness could be added to it I think.
     
    #15
  16. Kosmic Kerman

    Kosmic Kerman Commander

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2017
    Messages:
    95
    Likes Received:
    106
    @Kurazarrh Why is it ridiculous that failing to treat an illness can lead to death? A cavity can be fatal if untreated. A small cut can lead to a blood infection and sepsis. If you got a fever after eating a raw egg, would you do nothing? Would you still do nothing if the fever did not abate?

    I get your point that every illness always escalating seems a little overdone but I think there should always be a risk that leaving an illness untreated could be fatal. Like @arathorn867 , I think there should be a dice roll for each stage that will determine whether it moves to the next stage.
     
    #16
  17. WolfEyes

    WolfEyes Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2018
    Messages:
    867
    Likes Received:
    1,125
    The problem is indigestion doesn't lead to food poisoning in real life so it doing so in a game is rather jarring to those who are aware. I've had both indigestion and food poisoning. One is not related to the other. At all.

    Now, it could be a situation where the food you ate gave you both indigestion and food poisoning. The problem with that is, it isn't made obvious that is what is occurring. And believe me (from experience), if you have food poisoning, you have either a bacterial or viral infection. Indigestion is neither. My gastroenteritis was caused by a virus that was constantly spread between workers over months at one of my jobs and the food poisoning I'd had prior to that left me susceptible to the virus that caused the gastroenteritis, not indigestion.

    The bottom line is, medically, indigestion and food poisoning are not related, although you may experience indigestion prior to the onset of food poisoning, the indigestion does not cause food poisoning. I think this is where people are having a problem with it.
     
    #17
    ITguy1981 and arathorn867 like this.
  18. arathorn867

    arathorn867 Commander

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2015
    Messages:
    162
    Likes Received:
    107
    Maybe it should be renamed then? I am well aware that indigestion does not lead to food poisoning. I have also had food poisoning (Don't get street food in Rome, you'll regret it about the time you get to Switzerland...)

    An illness generally starts with a milder symptom, and depending on a variety of things, either progresses, or goes away. Perhaps they could use something a little more generic like "Stomach discomfort/pain". It then, depending on either RNG (simple way) or body temp/stamina/previous infections/the specific thing you ate (to simulate a weak immune system) advances.

    Another minor note. I'm not sure all raw foods should have a chance of causing illness, and certainly not food poisoning. Wild fruit and vegetables might be poisonous or inedible, but are pretty unlikely to cause food poisoning, which refers to a viral/bacterial infection.

    Unless you're eating rotten stuff off the ground anyway.
     
    #18
  19. WolfEyes

    WolfEyes Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2018
    Messages:
    867
    Likes Received:
    1,125
    I agree with you with one small exception. You can get food poisoning from wild fruit and veggies.

    https://www.prevention.com/food/smart-shopping/food-poisoning-produce-and-vegetables

    Currently in the US, tainted romaine lettuce has been the culprit of e. coli infections in at least a dozen states.

    https://www.cdc.gov/ecoli/2018/o157h7-04-18/index.html

    Another good site that covers some sources of food poisoning tells us:

    How does food become contaminated?

    Food can become contaminated at many points from its origin to your table. Here are just a few:

    • It might be contaminated from the beginning. For example, a chicken with infected reproductive organs can lay eggs containing salmonella. Fish feeding in contaminated water might have contaminated flesh. Vegetables irrigated with contaminated water, or grown near livestock, may have organisms on the surface.
    • Pesticides or chemicals could somehow find their way into or onto food. Watermelons contaminated with the pesticide aldicarb sickened many people.
    • Food could be washed or handled in a contaminated environment. Contaminated cantaloupe caused a recent outbreak of foodborne illness.
    • Food could be processed in a contaminated facility. This was the case with the recent peanut butter recall.
    • Proper processing techniques might not be used. For example, unpasteurized dairy products (raw milk, raw milk cheese) and fruit juices have caused illness. Meat processing plants must prevent organisms on animal hides from reaching the meat.
    • Food handlers can contaminate food. This can happen if they are ill, if they don’t wash their hands often enough or after using the bathroom, or if they have a cut or sore on their hands.
    • Foods might not be refrigerated properly. Fish left out after being caught is a cause of scombroid fish poisoning. Foods not kept hot enough can also cause illness. Foods left at room temperature for too long can make people sick. Families at home, groups at picnics, community suppers, banquets, and restaurants can all make this mistake.
    • Cross-contamination of food can happen in home and restaurant kitchens. If the same knives and cutting boards are used for raw meat, poultry, or fish and vegetables, organisms can be transferred from one to the other.

    https://www.poison.org/articles/2013-apr/food-poisoning

    ETA: It's the first one on the list that is the clincher.
     
    #19
    arathorn867 likes this.
  20. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    May 13, 2017
    Messages:
    2,819
    Likes Received:
    3,718
    The developers are in Germany (last time I heard) and all we have are translations in the English version. We can understand the principles though: on condition named "x" leads to a worse one if not treated. They could roll the dice there to make it less automatic, like was mentioned.

    Even in 7.0 "eggs" had an uncanny tendency to give food poisoning, to the point I simply stopped picking them.
     
    #20
    arathorn867 likes this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page