Alpha 9.2 Experimental - Logistic GUI updates

Discussion in 'Experimental Features Discussion' started by Hummel-o-War, Jan 12, 2019.

  1. Hummel-o-War

    Hummel-o-War Administrator
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    Logistics Update:
    - Logistics window: Setup is retained separately for 'F' and 'F4' modes
    - Display message when trying to put something in the connected toolbar but the connected container is full
    - Do not use OUTPUT container as source for construction
    - Logistics window: Added button for direct access of the device of an assigned container
    - Logistics window: added '(C)' in front of CONNECTED container and pin to top, added '(A)' in front of ASSIGNED container and pin to top
    - Accessing a container via F does not disable dropdowns in accessible structures anymore
    - Evenly distribute weight for modular containers
    - Logistics UI: Color active button and connected container grid = visually connect logic
    - Added Partial-Pickup from dropped stacks when not enough volume capacity to pickup full stack
    - Place Decon/Furnace OFF and switch OFF if assigned container is switched
    - Fixed: in 'F mode' selected container was displayed twice in dropdown list
    - Fixed: not connected / assigned container names started with a blank character
    - Fixed: In Logistics window, selecting fuel or oxygen tank doesn't work
    - Fixed: Changing from player inventory window to H item menu hides toolbar
     
    #1
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
  2. Pach

    Pach Captain

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    Since no one else has given you any feedback yet... I'll start. :)

    I really, really LOVE where the logistics are moving towards. I see this as the foundation of some potentially really cool stuff, and I'm curbing my impat.... er, *eagerness* to see the next iteration. :)

    I love the linking ability, and that multiple people can link and add stuff to the same box in multiplayer, and that box can be linked to the constructor. We can easily make prom pellets *while* we are mining it, and never have to stop to "unload"!

    I like being able to move stuff around between boxes/ships without ever once going into my inventory (no more spoiling food as I run it out to the SV!)

    I like the new update showing very clearly which box you are connected to, and pinning the boxes in use, as those are the ones I'm most likely to go to.

    Some general feedback/thoughts on the logistics system in general. I'm not making specific suggestions in all cases, just what the need is, as a user, if that makes sense? Some of these things, I realize aren't something you could put in any time soon; it's just my thoughts. I hope you find my comments insightful...

    1. Organization.
    I want to organize my .... stuff. Right now, the most efficient way to use logistics is to throw everything into one "Raw Materials" box, to feed the construction hoppers. But there's no way to sort/organize what's in there, and items are always moving around as slots are emptied from materials used up, or filled from intermediate stuff being built, or new materials being dropped in. I'd like a way to look at my resources, and clearly see "I need more cobalt", without having to do searches on "cobalt" (since that will also bring up "cobalt alloy"). Also, having everything in one box is... messy. Eventually, you have to build a bigger box. Yes, you've made a way to do this. I still cannot sort/organize/easily evaluate what I have with everything dumped in one box. I need a way to tell at a *glance* what resources are lowest, or have a way to see all available resources of one type onboard, so I know what I need to go mine next.

    There are different ways to address this: sorting options in the inventory boxes, filters (ingots vs. component materials vs raw ore, etc.), or linking boxes to boxes. What do I mean by that? Having a main box linked to the constructor, and that input box has "feeder" boxes that it pulls from automatically. Then, I could check my "feeder" boxes, which could be organized how I wish (ingots here; raw ore there. Weapon upgrade kits over there.... crushed rock HERE...), and could glance in the feeder boxes to see what materials are low.

    As a sub-topic to this: intermediate items. I don't give a darn. :) This would all those computers, optical cables, glass plates, carbon substrate, cobalt alloy, erestrum gel, energy matrixes, capacitors, steel plates, flux thingies... you get the idea. :) The only time I care about intermediate items, is if I'm using the multitool to upgrade an item in place, like upgrading the constructor to the advanced constructor. Then I need to have the specific intermediate items to do it. (Okay, there are a few other times, but still rare when I care about these items). There are a plethora of these items, and it would be nice if there were some way to designate a box for them, out of the way (or allow feederboxes into the intermediate items box, as I said before...). I know we need them, but usually, they are just clutter when you are trying to evaluate "what do I need to go gather?" I want those separate from my true raw materials, so I can see what I need to *get*.

    2. Manipulation
    If I can see a box, I want to interact with it, no matter which screen I'm in. Seeing the input/output on the constructors, and realizing that I'm short, say, erestrum, and need to move some over (because limited space, right? I keep it in another box until I need it in the input box, because there isn't enough room in that one box...), and I have to flip screens around to get to where I can interact with them. Even if there were just a button on that screen to go directly to that box would be a fix for this, if it's not ever going to be possible to make it usable right from the constructor screen. e.g., if I click on the Input box (where it displays the "locked input items"), it could take me to the F4 screen with that box open on the right, so I can manipulate it...

    3. Inputs and Outputs
    A few things with input/output.

    First, multiple of both, with some sort of logic to be able to determine which output. e.g. "If perishable, use Fridge, else use MedicalBox" or "If type = ingot, use IngotBox, if type = ammo, use AmmoBox, if type = fuel use FuelBox", etc. I know this is a big ask/long term, but it would be really nice. :) At the very least, multiple inputs should be possible in some way: this would help with resource organization, and being able to quickly evaluate available raw materials.

    Second, changing input/output without stopping construction. This is another big ask/long term item. Right now, if I want to change input/output, I have to wait for the current build to finish. It would be nice to say "at this spot, change inputs to THESE boxes, and output to THESE boxes, with THIS logic for output". Even better: have "blueprints" or "configurations" that we can save, and just swap to that input/output configuration. Then I can queue up new items with those input/output without having to clear current production and changing the boxes.

    Why would I want to do this?

    SVs and HVs do not have food processors--just the mobile constructor. Let's take the HV: I normally cut down a few trees, and tell the MC to make biofuel (input = harvest box; output = cargo box) while I explore. I'm constantly making new fuel, so I never have to stop/go get more--just occasionally re-fill the tank from the cargo box. But, if I run into some hostile spiders or scorpions, and end up killing them and getting some meat, I want to run it through the constructor, and cook it up, so I can eat it (it's a good thing my avatar is nowhere near as squeamish about eating bugs as the player is...!)

    To do THAT, I have to:
    1. clear the fuel from the constructor queue
    2. wait for the last item processing to finish processing (*yawn*)
    3. change the input/output to fridge
    4. queue up the food
    5. wait for the food to finish processing (*more yawn*)
    6. change input/output back to biofuel processing
    7. re-queue biofuel
    It would be really nice if I could "fire and forget": tell the constructor to finish THIS biofuel, and when done, grab the meat from the fridge, cook it up and put the results back in the fridge, and then go back to making biofuel, with the previous input/output. You *used* to be able to do this, just by throwing the materials into the constructor, when it had its own inventory--you just had to come back in a bit and move the finished food to the fridge (or eat it). Now, you have to either risk the food spoiling, or spend time waiting for queues to clear. Kinda defeats the point of automation. :(

    Final note on input/output: it would be really nice if we could output fuel/oxygen/warp fuel directly to the tanks, if room, and to an alternate box if not. This would be handy on said HV, where it's constantly making fuel as I go along: then I wouldn't have to stop to check the tanks. :)

    Of course, this only would work while *making* fuel, so if the constructor swaps to say, processing iron ore to ingots, then I'd better be minding my fueltank!


    ... these are my only thoughts right now. I know some of these are long-term goals, but I can see the potential for all these in what you've started here.

    I hope you find these comments useful!
     
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  3. Moonsugar

    Moonsugar Rear Admiral

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    @Pach
    regarding your concerns about organisation: I think it boils down to being able to assign multiple Containers for input. Just for raw materials (ore / ingots, wood, fiber, water,...) you need, if you ar pedantic, about 15 containers. Then the intermediate items from looting and deconstructing, perishables, weeds, ...
    But i am confident, the devs already did plan that for future releases, its just too obvious ;)
     
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  4. Bigfeet

    Bigfeet Captain

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    Honored status with the Talon does not give me permission to harvest a single crop of theirs anymore ?
     
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  5. Hummel-o-War

    Hummel-o-War Administrator
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    Does the red warning show up? ( I think plants in growing plots are handled like containers now, but you should still be able to pick them in the wild and from the talon crop fields)
     
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  6. Bigfeet

    Bigfeet Captain

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    It does . Back in 9.1 i was able to grab their crops on their base at honored status. Today it immediatly set me to unfriendly.
    I suppose that's the new deal then. They are probably in growplots yes, can't see because the base is most likely a bit too low placed (on this server). But they grow in an organised setting, so it must be.
     
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  7. McMonsterDad

    McMonsterDad Ensign

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    REBALANCING FOR HV/SV
    Love the idea of the logistics system. However, the major flaw at present is the complete inability of a hv to carry anything of any worth unless it is built like a complete monster.
    My backpack has a capacity of 500, a CV/base cargo box has a capacity of 8000 (single block) or 16000 (older large cargo box) but the hv/sv boxes have a capacity of 125 (or 250 for the old large cargo box)! This seems ridiculous for a vehicle! I can run around with my backpack full (500 volume) no worries. If I place 500 volume in a basic hv I can barely get it off the ground. You have practically made it impossible to build an affordable hv that can be used for looting or mining. This REALLY needs to be looked at as this is putting people off using the system. My viewers seem to be in complete agreement about this one, frustrating aspect of the logistics system.

    My view is that hv/sv cargo boxes should be able to hold somewhere in the middle (between my backpack and a CV). In addition to this, the power of basic hover engines and thrusters would need to be rebalanced to actually be able to move the vehicles around.

    Love the updates and the way the game is going.....
     
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  8. Moonsugar

    Moonsugar Rear Admiral

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    It just plain accurate math.
    a base cargo box is 2m x 2m x 2m = 8m^3
    a hv gargo box is 0.5 x 0.5 x 0.5 = 0.125 m^3
    if anything, the players backpack holds waaaaaaay too much (but you cannot change this, because the game would be just unplayable then). So much to the volume. Your problems with the HV not getting off the ground is another, and i cannot stress it enough: the hover engines are ridicoulosy weak. They are in their original state barely strong enough to push around the empty HV - if you dont care to mount them in masses like 30 or 40 of them for even the simplest HV. With some payload that same HV then creeps like a snake on valium, if at all.
    I did for me edit the config file for the HV engines to have half the weight and five times the thrust and energy consumption, AFTER doing some basic balancing on them, so each of them has its special use and does not render all others obsolete after being available. Thats convenient, but of course i cannot use any hv from the workshop now. I think i will do like Cato and make an according signature...
     
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  9. McMonsterDad

    McMonsterDad Ensign

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    I'm aware of the math behind this, unfortunately applying real life equations to a sci-fi game just isn't working out! These current equations, regardless of how realistic they are in real life, are killing the game with regards to the use of the HV/SV.

    By my reckoning and testing, I believe, if you had the cargo extensions maxed out on a HV, you would need between 70-100 hover jet thrusters mounted on the rear alone, just to move it when the cargo was full! Is that not ridiculous?
     
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  10. RazzleWin

    RazzleWin Commander

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    Woo our own version of MONSTER TRUCKS! Just think of the tug of war battles we could have! :eek:
     
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  11. geostar1024

    geostar1024 Rear Admiral

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    I don't think anyone disagrees that HVs currently lack sufficiently powerful thrusters to move heavy loads (why their thrusters are different from SVs remains an enduring mystery). The equations are just fine; it's the device stats that is the problem.
     
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  12. Moonsugar

    Moonsugar Rear Admiral

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    You are perfectly right with this; if i did not express myself clearly enough i am sorry. Thats what i meant: I am fine with the current /volume/ capacity of the storage chests. But to fullfill their /mass/ demands we need a completely ridiculous amount of thrusters. Yes, (without having it calculated or thoroughly tested, 10 more or less is pointless to discuss anyway) my guess about the amount needed is roughly the same as yours, @McMonsterDad .
     
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  13. Hummel-o-War

    Hummel-o-War Administrator
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    So it is not about the VOLUME but about the MASS, right?
     
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  14. Moonsugar

    Moonsugar Rear Admiral

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    Regarding ME: yes. More specifically: Not the mass of the chests themselves (even if they add up too, but this can and will be taken into account and handled on designing). The main problem is, that now the mass of the freight is added to the mass to a HV. The thrusters of HVs are absolutely incapable of handling this. They are too weak (imho) even without the added mass of freight (needing several dozends of them for a decent HV is too much), but with mass of freight... looting a POI gets a pita. I conquered an abandoned drone base, and to bring all the things home i wanted to keep i had to travel about 20 times back and forth and back... and this did not include all the stuff i quickly put into the factory.
    And on top of this: I am gaming with patched HV thrusters already - they have about 25% more thrust and 50% less mass than the vanilla versions. I really dont dare trying this with those.
     
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  15. Hummel-o-War

    Hummel-o-War Administrator
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    So maybe a stronger thruster for HV might be a good starter? To what factor of the currently available ones?

    Can you possibly add me sceenshots (or savegame) of the masses you want to haul? This would be important as we always need to work with actual testable usecases from the perspective of the players that add those concerns (Thats extremely important to not just discuss "weight" globally, as too heavy or too slow might differ in your and my and the devs view ;)
     
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  16. Hicks42

    Hicks42 Rear Admiral

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    A good start would be solidifying and implementing whatever is going to be done with the CPU system. That being said; Currently the Small HV thruster is more efficient than the the other two and the medium is more efficient than the 1x3x1. Between the medium and large the difference is rather puzzling. +50% of the volume for an increase of 1/8th of the thrust..... Improve the large thruster and test it.

    sm 12 pu 40 KN 1x1x1 1 KN/ 6.25 kg and 40 KN per 1 block volume
    md 20 pu 80 KN 1x2x1 1KN/ 7.25 kg and 40 KN per 1 block volume
    lg 25 pu 90 KN 1x3x1 1KN/ 8.88 kg and 30 KN per 1 block volume

    Bit of an odd tier schedule to be quite honest.
     
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    Last edited: Jan 17, 2019
  17. IronCartographer

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    Since we're discussing HV thrust here randomly, I'll just put this here: https://empyriononline.com/threads/hv-hover-engine-and-handling-improvements.22132/

    The tl;dr is "What if hover engines, being so powerful and efficient, could replace thrusters entirely by giving thrust in all directions--both push and pull, up/down/sideways (when aimed at any nearby surface)?"

    Just imagine being able to drive on a ceiling of a cave, or in the hangar of a CV in orbit. HV paradise.
     
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  18. Hicks42

    Hicks42 Rear Admiral

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    Not really Random.

    But thanks for the link.
     
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  19. IronCartographer

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    It's two steps away from the original topic (the logistic GUI itself -> mass -> HV-specific considerations), which... alright, fair enough, not random. :D

    It also wasn't a personal comment in the slightest. Team effort got us here. ;)
     
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  20. Hicks42

    Hicks42 Rear Admiral

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    As I pointed out with Quoting the ever effervescent Bumblebee-O-War.

    Perhaps, arguably, not a direct logic chain to get where I went. But not random. ;)
     
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