Alpha 9.4 - Hotfix Releases

Discussion in 'Patch Notes' started by EleonGameStudios, Feb 13, 2019.

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  1. nexus_absolute

    nexus_absolute Captain

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    I like the compromise of a slot based system for storage over weight/mass/volume for storage (let that stuff affect flight systems) but I'd like to play devils-advocate for using both.

    I have 2 slots - a left hand and a right hand. I can carry a max of 100kg.

    I can carry 100kg in one hand or a 50kg item in each hand, but I can't carry 3 20kg items because I only have 2 hands. I can't carry a 100kg it's in my left hand and a 50kg it's in my right because together they are too heavy.

    So this system is affected by weight and capacity and the limit could be reached by either.

    How about 2 % totalizers (one for each) so we can factor weight for flight mechanics?
     
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  2. gevans

    gevans Lieutenant

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    Has the way triangles are counted in ship designs changed ?
    I noticed a CV design that I just changed to the new logistics system had it's triangle count fall to about half of what it was before and I didn't change anything else besides the storage systems.
    It's size class also fell by over a third.
     
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  3. Frigidman

    Frigidman Rear Admiral

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    Possibly some block optimizations. There were some that had unruly amounts of triangles for what they were.
     
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  4. vscuorzo

    vscuorzo Lieutenant

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    That makes sense but implementing that adds nothing to the game for me. I'd rather keep it simple and have the devs spend their time on other features.
     
    #144
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  5. stanley bourdon

    stanley bourdon Commander

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    we are not talking about hands we are talking about a box a big empty box that costs lots of energy to keep going
     
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  6. nexus_absolute

    nexus_absolute Captain

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    I agree that the energy consumption is quiet wacky right now, enough to really hamper gameplay. Take that away and I'm as sound as a pound :)
     
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  7. Scoob

    Scoob Rear Admiral

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    Perhaps I'm going daft, but in my current 9.4 game I've now explored all planets and moons yet there hasn't been a single Neodymium or Sathium deposit. I've not mapped the two (one very small) asteroid playfields yet, but I hope they have something. My plan had been to place some AMiD's down as I need a LOT of Sathium (and a fair bit of Neodymium) in order to spawn in my WIP CV.

    Is it just random chance that's left me without planetary and orbital deposits for these ores, or has something gone horribly wrong with my solar system generation - which is just a default Random one. I thought it odd that I had zero Snow worlds, but the lack of certain resources is worrying. I'd been hoping to have this as a somewhat longer-term game as I've restarted a lot it seems lol.

    I have however found the most gorgeous Temperate swampy planet to set up a base on, it's just not got the resources I'm short on.

    Scoob.
     
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  8. Scoob

    Scoob Rear Admiral

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    On an unrelated note: a feature I really like currently is how Troop Transports are being sent to my current location. I just landed on a new planet in my CV, and these Transports are being sent regularly to harass it. They managing to land and the Zirax / Robots take the odd pot shot at my CV, but they're far more interested in me currently, so I can protect my ship that way.

    This is great, but hopefully they'll start targetting my ride before me at some point, as that'll really give me a hard time :)

    Edit: Also, Nightmares on a Temperate planet, that made me jump lol.

    Scoob.
     
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    Last edited: Feb 26, 2019
  9. nexus_absolute

    nexus_absolute Captain

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    Sorry to drag this subject up again, but... volume vs slots in cargo containers. A slot based system IMO has more inconsistencies than a volume system.

    Let talk stacks. Lets say we have 10 slots in our cargo container. Lets also say that we can stack 5 CV XL thrusters. In a slot based system each slot can hold 5 thrusters, so we can store 50 CV XL thrusters at which point the container is full. A pistol cannot stack because it has durability and so each pistol is a unique item. In a slot based system we can only store 10 pistols in the same space as 50 CV XL thrusters. Even if thrusters didn't stack does it really make sense that the same container that can only store 10 pistols will also store 10 thrusteers o_O

    The reality comes in the numbers (stack size, mass, etc) and less so the system (IMO). The current slot limit sounds like a game engine restriction and not a coded limit so there may be limits to what can be done.

    The big elephant int he room? Energy. The drain on power from extension modules is crippling. I think that there should be a small power cost to each controller but not to each extension module. There are however lots of unnecessary power draining systems already. I think the biggest issue is that the unit of measurement is wrong. My understanding is that most devices are already at their minimum power draw capacity.

    If you add another 0 or two to the PU and scale devices and fuel accordingly you then have some scope to reduce the power draw on devices. What was costing us 1 PU now could be made equivalent to 0.5 or 0.25 PUs, reducing overall impact of these devices.
     
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  10. Scoob

    Scoob Rear Admiral

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    I was a little surprised when I hit the slot limit waaay before volume limit on one of my largest "Mass Storage" containers. If there were a way to extend the number of slots beyond the current doubling (8x8 to 8x16) that'd really help. In the meantime, rather than having "Mass Storage" i.e. large collections of extensions, I've reverted back, to a degree, to using individual large Cargo Boxes for many classes of items.

    I think, in the future, if we gain any "sort / filter" blocks to move items to specific storage when placed in a given storage - say a Constructor Output - then the entire system will be much more powerful.

    Scoob.
     
    #150
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  11. StyleBBQ

    StyleBBQ Captain

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    @nexus_absolute , agree, and well stated.

    On number of slots; one thing I've found useful is to use a couple of the old cargo boxes (new models have many more HPs!) for things like Small O2 Cylinders & random bits. To save slots in main Cargo arrays. (@Scoob types faster :) )

    On Energy the switch from kiloWatts to PowerUnits unfortunately doesn't, at least currently, change how much energy they represent.

    Not a coder so I certainly don't know, but it doesn't seem like changing to 10 Watts as the smallest unit of measure would be very impactful.

    Unfortunately, and this is just my opinion, what appears to be going on is an attempt to use 'energy' as a scarcity resource.
    And that's virtually impossible in EGS.
    Ships. All 'flying'. All taking huge amounts of energy compared to lights or stoves or central heat & air. Also of course challenged by the old, "is it fun?" design constraint. Add in 'real' Mass & Volume and things get 'worse', not better; i.e. the gap between a stove and a multi ton ship flying.

    So unless Eleon really changes things up and adds in significant wheeled vehicles, 5-ton trucks & such, then 'easy' access to megaWatts of energy will be required right out of the gate.

    In other words, the, "huh?" bit of small things taking kiloWatts of juice just isn't worth it, in my opinion.
     
    #151
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  12. Scoob

    Scoob Rear Admiral

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    I must admit, the power side of things for the new storage mechanic has been a non-issue for me. I'd not even realised they used so much power...proving how observant I am lol. I did sorta think that my primarily solar-powered BA drained its capacitors a bit more quickly than I expected, but then I had a backup Generator and Fuel, so all was well.

    However, the fact they use a lot of power sorta makes sense as ALL storage in this game is super advanced tech with built in teleporters and some sort of spacial compression technology - how else does a stack of 3x6x3 XL CV Thrusters fit in a single 1x1x1 box? I guess this is how I'd accept any additional power draw personally, though, if the general consensus is that this is a little too high, then I'm fine with it being tweaked.

    As an aside, I'm all for churning out lots of cargo extension blocks, but perhaps we could gain T2 and even T3 versions of these blocks that are larger - so 2x2x2 and 3x3x3 - with MUCH more efficient internal space management, so a 2x2x2 extension can hold more than four 1x1x1's for example. Heh, how about giving us some super power-hungry extensions that can actively reduce the mass of the items carried - we have Gravity tech, so it's within the realms of Empyrion science. Just a very random thought as I typed this lol.

    Scoob.
     
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  13. nexus_absolute

    nexus_absolute Captain

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    For example purposes, lets say we currently have a scale of 1PU. What a PU represents is open to debate.
    1 is the smallest unit of measurement so anything that draws power must consume a minimum of 1 PU and everything scales up from this.
    Lets also say that a standard fuel pack supplies 2 PU and a solar panel generates 1 PU.

    If a sensor must use power it must use 1PU as a minimum. Lets also say that a constructor uses 4PU.

    If we change the scale by adding a 0 but keep the minimum unit of measurement of 1PU we have more flexibility with energy values.
    Scaling up fuel packs and solar panels these now provide 20PU and 10PU. Lets also scale the constructor so this now uses 40PU. There is no perceivable difference in performance and energy in and energy out are scaled the same.

    Instead of scaling the power draw from the sensor however we can keep this at 1PU. Voila, it now costs 1 tenth less to run, which would have growing impact on large builds or containers with lots of extensions.

    I'm not a coder myself but this makes sense to me.

    Of course a much simpler solution is to stop devices taking power where this makes no sense (e.g. sensors)
     
    #153
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  14. DeadliestIdiot

    DeadliestIdiot Lieutenant

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    From a programming prospective, another option would be to make the power a float variable (which means the variable can store decimal values instead of just integers). As the coding I do doesn't need to be horribly optimized, I'm not sure how that impacts the game optimization, but my guess would be that your idea of just scaling everything up would be more efficient (so long as you don't add a ridiculous number of zeros). The downside of floats, from a memory point of view, is that it takes up a lot more space than an integer. I'm sure they'll play around with these ideas when/if they revisit power consumption.

    (Sidenote, having not played since alpha 6.6, the changes to the game have been a joy and I find the volume restriction to be a novel and enjoyable addition that has so far added to the single player early game experience for me.)
     
    #154
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  15. StyleBBQ

    StyleBBQ Captain

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    oh, sry @nexus_absolute , I was unclear. By "... impactful" I meant computer CPU-load/Memory wise. :)

    Shifting the decimal place a couple spots (or even one) would be a very appreciated sanity & QoL change, exactly for the reasons you mentioned.

    While '1 PU' or 1 kW is fine grain enough to fairly represent moving and hovering of the general range of mass in game, it's a Mack truck hauling a few liters of water for things like lights. :)

    For instance, in 1 g it takes ~1 kN or ~1,000 watts (1 kW or PU) to hover a 100 kg mass.

    So it should take 400 kN of thrust to just barely lift one Large Constructor of 40t (40,000 kg). Perfect conversion would mean 400 PUs draw.

    A decent size rw dwelling might have a 200 amp breaker box, and at 115 Volts that means the entire home is powered by a max of 23 kW.

    The -Idle- power draw for the Food Processor is 30 PU, more than most folks houses could provide :)
     
    #155
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  16. FurtiveSage

    FurtiveSage Ensign

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    I did a periodic update check for any dedicated server updates to 9.4. There was an update, although I don't see mention yet of the version and/or hot fix, however EmpAdminHelper.exe is now 0 bytes and I can no longer run the game through that server tool. I have run the update check several times and receive the message app is up to date.


    [​IMG]
     
    #156
  17. Pantera

    Pantera Moderator
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    Alpha 9.4.1 notes https://empyriononline.com/threads/alpha-9-4-1-bug-fixes-and-changed-folder-structure.48006/
     
    #157
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