Alpha EXPERIMENTAL 10.5: Optimizations

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by EleonGameStudios, Aug 28, 2019.

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  1. StyleBBQ

    StyleBBQ Captain

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    First thought on HVs flying in space was, "hm, okay just add a downward thruster", then thought, "oh oh"... :)

    Even before Mass&Vol some folks were making really big HVs, so trying to retro fit Up & Down thrusters to a 200 ton HV wouldn't be pretty.

    What would you guys think about cheesing things a bit and having the Hover Engines act as both Up&Down in space? (if this came to pass of course)
     
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  2. SacredGlade

    SacredGlade Captain

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    We currently can (sort of) remote control HV docking... If memory serves me well, if you change the faction in a HV via the control panel, it will undock. (not a great game mechanic, but serves as an illustration).

    If the SV can be set to ether CV or SV docking mode and it automatically undocks any vehicle not in its current mode, well then I think we may be in a good place:

    upload_2019-9-13_21-17-29.png

    Of course if there was additionally some mechanic to move HV's in close proximity to a CV/SV - or even an "Auto move and dock" to structures with X meters. Well then things become sweat!

    - really looking forward to the time we can leave the giant CV in orbit and launch a mission with the drop ship to planet :)
     
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  3. Jacob Adjani

    Jacob Adjani Captain

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    I think that's a great idea actually. People that don't want to redesign don't have to. Brilliant!

    I'm also of the opinion that, if you don't like this, fine... redesign your HV's.

    In the broadest sense, I would hate to see the development path move in such a way so as to head off every single dumb thing/hassle factor a player might do... it's a survival/builder/combat game... at some point, it's on the player to build appropriate to expected function!
     
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  4. krazzykid2006

    krazzykid2006 Rear Admiral

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    I like this idea, at least as a temp solution, but I believe there are technical restrictions that have prevented this as a possibility in the past.

    We've been told before that it's no easy task making a HV behave like a SV in space but still behave like a HV on planet. It was an either/or thing with the vessel controller. It either always behaves like a HV or always behaves like a SV. I "believe" it was Hummel who said that before.

    I have faith they will come up with a solution though.

    I can't find it for a quote, sorry. I know I've read one of the staff members say basically that before though.
     
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  5. Jacob Adjani

    Jacob Adjani Captain

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    Could be wrong but I think that's just a matter of assigning/loading a different controller method - either in real time or on planet transition. Not all that different than when you sit in a pilot's seat.
     
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  6. StyleBBQ

    StyleBBQ Captain

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    Somebody once said something like, "If you're not free to make mistakes then you have no freedom at all."
    So fully agree with you there Jacob, give us the freedom to be idiots, please :D:confused::p

    No question Krazzy; and I recall reading that bit about HVs not being able to 'kinda' fly due to code. Didn't mean to get ahead of the, is it reasonably doable(?), question, it just kind of leapt out at me that big HVs 'flying' would require a lot of Newtons in directions we're not used to putting them (I almost said "places" there, eep!).
     
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  7. Jacob Adjani

    Jacob Adjani Captain

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    Well, being a well known and self confessed idiot occasionally... ;) I've spent a fair amount of time trying to "fly" an HV in space... lol. For real! What I was actually doing was seeing if I could figure a way to design an HV that could be reasonably maneuvered in space (to make an extreme short range mining pod)... btw, you can't, mining lasers/turrets don't work in space.

    It seems to me from testing, that the HV controller assumes a static plane for relative positioning and "hover thrust"... in space, of course, with no terrain to hover on, and no gravity to drop you to the plane... you can't move vertically at all (you CAN if you are over a CV, but only up, and you float away).

    So again, @ravien_ff and your combined idea is to me the quick and easy way to go - simply "replace" or "overlay" the SV controller code on HV's as they transition to space? (with a 5 m/s limit or some such, and overlay standard thuster up/down logic to hover engines)
     
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  8. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    Drunk pilot drives HV out of platform : too bad. He can go get it back with a SV, provided the HV will stop moving at some point. That is only if the HV is allowed to move in whatever it is docked to, in space (BA or CV). But what if not? Then drunk pilot can't drive it off the platform.

    How to dock/ undock HV to SV, to be able to "drop" HV on another platform (CV or BA) in space... How about making the SV pickup the HV instead of the usual mechanic *player controls child, docks it to parent* ? So the player stays in the SV, activates the "docking" of the HV from there if conditions are met (ex. HV resting flat on a surface of the SV, or some relative positioning of collider allowed), and just picks it up. When arriving at other platform (CV or BA) in space, pilot better not drink and simply "undock" the HV. When crossing the boundary from planet playfield to space playfield, the HV characteristics change so it becomes child of whatever gravity field it comes in, unrelated to its normal up-down functions as per planet playfield (ex. no auto-level : it's in space now). So the player in the SV can just drop the HV in a CV/BA, the HV will land on whatever surface where the gravity sends it, and can then be docked normally.

    For any "docking" action between same-level vehicles (ex. HV=HV, SV=HV, CV=CV), there could be a virtual entity created (invisible) that is destroyed when undocking. This virtual entity could become the "parent" to hold both children together during the whole action, until undock... It could inherit the characteristics of the normal parent (if SV=HV, then entity mimicks controls/ collision of the SV). If CV=CV, the virtual parent could inherit the characteristics of the ship the player is controlling when "attaching" ships.

    For CV=SV or CV=HV, no need to create this virtual parent : the usual relationship applies.

    Edit : one small detail : SVs would pick-up HVs like a choplifter picks up a container, not like a pick-up truck carries a motorbike, else the HV has to be able to move in space to get off the SV. But a SV could the also pick up another SV in the same manner, provided it has the power to do so and carry it.
    -----------------------------------------------------
    Might also be simpler to just disable the "hover" mechanics when the HV gets in a space playfield, and allow the HV to use thrusters only to move in the space CV/BA. I tested a small HV "train" that rests on some blocks and the friction is not stopping the vehicle... Limit the hover engines max lift in space so HV can still move minimally in the space CV/ BA ? But then, the drunk pilot scenario...
     
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  9. stanley bourdon

    stanley bourdon Commander

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    My first thought when I saw that HV could dock to SV was What happens when they get the mass of a docked ship to add to the mass of the parent ship. Most SV can not carry a substantial percentage of there mass what will they do with an HV that is 2-5 times their mass. If your answer is to build a bigger SV that in my opinion is a CV. If the answer is it is just for moving an HV minor (small light craft) about what will move the mass of what the miner has mined?
     
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  10. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    Maybe this points towards ship specialization. Beginners can make an average size HV but they need a "hauler" SV to lift it, no "jack-of-all-trades" SV laden with weapons and heavy armor. If this is not just one of the steps to prohibit CVs on planets, then the heavier HVs will just require a CV class ship to pick it up.
     
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  11. stanley bourdon

    stanley bourdon Commander

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    To be clear I am not against additional docking options. However, I do not foresee any substantial changes to gameplay with them without substantial changes to the capabilities of, many other components, especially SV thrusters.
     
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  12. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    And, who knows, a T2 RCS for SVs... :rolleyes:
     
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  13. Jacob Adjani

    Jacob Adjani Captain

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    And a T 0.25 RCS for CVs? :)
     
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  14. Robot Shark

    Robot Shark Rear Admiral

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    I have a question about the Alien Tower, it is no longer part of the Robinson protocol but it still exists within the game as an admin structure.
    Is a new mission going to be added that includes it?

    The reason I am asking is that I can see new players get annoyed when they get trapped inside without the mission prompts to guide them on how to escape.
     
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  15. ASTIC

    ASTIC Captain

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    EmpyrionGalaxyNavigator:
    https://github.com/GitHub-TC/EmpyrionGalaxyNavigator

    What is it for?
    This can be used to start a navigation through the galaxy, which guides you through the galaxy to the destination.

    [​IMG]

    Commands
    • \nav help => List of commands
    • \nav stop => Cancel a running navigation
    • \nav <target> => This can be used to start a navigation from the current location to the destination <target> e.g. \ nav Akua
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
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  16. Ravlain

    Ravlain Lieutenant

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    It's part of the Talon starter quest now.
     
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  17. StyleBBQ

    StyleBBQ Captain

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    Me as well @Jacob Adjani o_O:D

    & I'll admit it didn't take long to go there; HV Space Miners! Heck, even at 5 m/s top speed if the drills worked it'd be quite doable.

    Well from the Patch Notes to now (besides all the hundreds or thousands of posts in the past, heh) I think we've done a pretty fair job of arguing Eleons case for them! (hehehe) :p. Not that it's not fun to imagine space flying HVs but if I had to bet a dollar I'd bet on that not happening.

    My 0,50 cent bet would be that Eleon adds in a new "Docking Clamp" block that will 'hold' the needed rules/logic to allow SVs to transport HVs to space and effect Docking/Undocking to a CV, while in zero gee. And will also allow an SV to capture any HV that floats off into space.

    @Kassonnade , very well said, -much- better than I attempted the other night, and with many more 'gotchas' addressed <thumbs up!>.

    And to your excellent question @stanley bourdon re: mass vs. SV lift. Well a recent HV build I did that could haul 500 tons wound up massing ~100 tons itself, so when the patch notes came out I went and started building an SV that could lift 600 tons plus itself. It's the first time I've ever used the larger SV thrusters. Had 3e 3x7x3's and 6e 2x5x2's for lift, and that wasn't going to be enough...o_O

    For me I expect the way I'll use a SV<dock>HV the most is to pack a smallish but useful HV when going to the Moon &/or SV warp range planets early on. Then can imagine purpose building a small as possible 'Forward Recovery Station' HV to drop off near a POI prior to assaulting it.
    (from what I've been seeing and hearing about the new POIs I'm expecting to die, a lot... yay HV Med Bays!)

    @Jacob Adjani , according to @geostar1024 's calcs a T1 CV RCS would only be 0.0625 of current.... ouch! :) (still all for it, but dang...heh)

    If I'm thinking of the same POI as @Robot Shark , the tall skinny black steel tower that you drop down into and have to bump the walls to get to the switch that then blows out a side wall? Then yeah, that's an excellent point. I saw it very early on and hit it so I could make a temp base, but no prompts, and though the wall blew out the core remained unbreakable :( . A new player without any of the prompts could be totally stuck in there.

    @Ravlain , ah, ok, that makes sense then that the core remained unbreakable.
     
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  18. Taelyn

    Taelyn Administrator
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    Update 2019-09-14 (Build 2646 - Release Candidate)

    Changed:
    - Updated "Invader vs Defender II" scenario
    - Updated Snow playfield

    Fixes:
    - [MP] PF log exception when teleporting to another planet
    - When local co-op is started the host can connect fine but other players will not be able to connect
    - [Player report] Polaris mission - Privacy matters waypoint not activating on mini map or planet map
    - 'Reset to Defaults' option should only reset selected 'Input', fixed Vessel 'Primary Action' label text
    - Turret Barrels Protruding from Block
    - Exception after entering a number in the blink frequency input field and then clicking anywhere outside
    - Fixed floating point display of blink frequency (internationalization)
    - [MP] Plants, rocks & trees don't get removed for players who are far away from where they have been removed
     
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  19. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    There are some leftovers from the removal of the SV=HV docking attempt, I think...

    One of my small SVs can't dock anymore to anything. I had to change the docking pad type to make it work again, after trying various solutions.

    The blueprint had the docking pad #3 (T1) which is enclosed between 2 thrusters. It used to work no problem, but didn't after the patch. I replaced it with a newer one that has the "extend" animation but has the same size as the old one when inactive.

    -------------------------------------

    We really need a radar or scanner in space, or at least there should not be scattered asteroids all over the place around a planet. This only happens at the very early stages of a planet's formation, and after a while the floating bodies tend to find an orbit along the ecliptic plane, like rings. Rings are much less a problem to explore without a scanner, because we can have some points of reference, but scattered asteroids are too much of a puzzle and not very realistic (I used that word ? Arf...).

    I think the nebulas are too colorful; they pull the blanket off the feet of everything else visually. At least in some places... I would much prefer a dark background dotted with many stars, that make space feel large and empty, and makes all objects more prominent. Now they are all washed in bright color background, and they suffer from their general grayness...

    It's also a big step in visuals when leaving a planet, where the sky gets darker and darker (or already black if night), then the brightness and saturation of the nebulas "pop on" when entering the space playfield.

    The "distant planets" are easily mistaken with asteroids floating around because they are too big for their distance. They should be a little more than tiny dots, at most. It would be cool and useful to have more indications (like discrete brackets around an object) for the stuff already identified, even if it's far away. They can serve as reference points when wandering in space, just like the ancient used stars as navigation guides. It could be integrated in the hud like other item names, and enabled/ disabled like other infos in the hud.
     
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    Last edited: Sep 14, 2019
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  20. vscuorzo

    vscuorzo Commander

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    I don't think the speed limit is necessary. Their biggest limitation would be that if they get too close to a gravitational field they're likely not able to overcome it. So you're hv could move around like an sv in space except without any strong vertical thrust and if you get too close to a planet then you'll end up living there.

    That's ignoring game engine limitations of course. It makes sense that the engine might be too rigid on classifying vehicles. However, could you not fudge it a bit by telling the engine it's an sv and automatically issuing the commands to make it behave like an hv? For example, the main difference is just that the hv doesn't have strong enough thrust on the y axis to fly more than a few feet from the ground. If gravity is actually understood as a force by the engine then you just have to apply an opposing force for the player (without using thrusters) to achieve a hover effect. In space where no gravity is present, no "hover force" is needed and you can just let the engine handle things like it's an sv with barely any vertical thrust.

    Granted, that's kind of a hack, but it should make it possible for an hv to work in space even if you can't change the engine.
     
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