Alpha EXPERIMENTAL 9.0

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by EleonGameStudios, Dec 5, 2018.

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  1. Thundercraft

    Thundercraft Captain

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    There are a few alternatives, but none sound appealing. They may not even be realistic without access to some of the better tech that Prometheum provides.

    Currently, we can not trade with a faction until after we've gained a lot of positive reputation points with them. (Being Neutral is not good enough.) And that (currently) is only possible by killing lots and lots of their enemies or destroying their blocks. To accomplish this - especially the block destroying - you pretty much have to have access to Prometheum. It's a catch-22.

    I would also argue that trying to raid a POI without access to Prometheum is risky.

    I'm not asking for the world. I'm asking for access to a mediocre amount of Iron, Copper, Silicon and Prometheum - within about a day's walking distance (24 in-game minutes) of the wreck (signal location) we start at - and without having to go to war with a faction. Of these resources, the one that's hardest to get is Prometheum because we can't get it by busting up stones.

    Don't get me wrong: I like incentives to explore. But Empyrion is a game that rewards exploration. The design and game mechanics already emphasize this. There are plenty of incentives: Visiting new, gorgeous, exotic locations; attacking and looting new POI's; finding new ore deposits to mine as well as more and new resources to gather...

    By "a bit" do you mean hours... or days? It almost makes me glad that I skipped over Alpha 8. But then, I was not around to complain about this change.

    At first, I think I was an advocate for having a weight system. I think... more or less... maybe.

    Q: How are we supposed to loot large, heavy items like Fridge (T2), Advanced Constructor, CV Thrusters and Hangar Doors if our inventory is so severely limited by both weight and volume?

    If this is an attempt at being realistic, it's a fairly miserable approximation. In real life, moving such large things would require either moving equipment or a number of people. I think we were better off with dimensional pockets. Or, how about anti-gravity cargo sleds?

    Also, aren't these restrictions going to make plundering POIs a real pain in the backside? Are we going to be forced to make countless trips, back and forth, with our parked HV, SV or CV?

    Thanks for the tip. Though, I kind of figured this was the case, what with drones coming to attack our base long before we've finished building it and before we've filled the fuel tank and turned it on.

    Eleon Game Studios is amazing. I've never seen or heard of a game dev that listens to fans quite like they do.

    Yes, some wanted more of a "survival" aspect to Empyrion. I was not one of those. I thought it already had that.

    I do hope to see some more customization options in the future. It truly is impossible to please everyone all the time. But gamers, in particular, have a variety of tastes. Some want an easy, laid back game. Some want a normal difficulty. And some want "Nightmare Mode" or something that will really test their mettle. Some even want to switch between difficulties as the mood strikes them.
     
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    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
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  2. geostar1024

    geostar1024 Rear Admiral

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    Bring a ship with enough storage space and loot directly into its storage arrays. I will note again that most large blocks and devices will see substantial decreases in volumes once those are set properly, so looting them should be less of a hassle in the future. But, depending on the size of the POI and the amount of loot, you really might need multiple trips (if it's really worth your time to take everything that isn't nailed down) if you don't have access to a larger ship.

    As an aside, my default action when looting is to take absolutely everything (because it might be useful). However, when I was playing through The Witcher 3 recently, I actually managed to break myself of that habit in the mid- to late-game, as I'd kept filling up my inventory with extremely cheap but bulky (well, massive) junk like ladders and broken axes. In the early game, you're starved enough for resources that it very well might be worth it to take everything even if you have to go back after dropping/selling off stuff first; later on, you can afford to become more choosy.

    My point is that just because there's something in a box in the structure you're looting doesn't mean you have to take it.
     
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  3. geostar1024

    geostar1024 Rear Admiral

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    Except it should require a nontrivial amount of thrust (and thus power) to maintain your velocity. It would be easy enough for this to be calculated and then deducted from the ship's fuel supply. This might amount to a considerable drain for longer trips, at which point an orbital hop might be advisable.

    However, the other thing this change means is that it's much more annoying to slow down if you don't have forward-facing thrusters (which is how a surprising number of my designs are set up).
     
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  4. Damocles

    Damocles Captain

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    Since the game now allows higher than 50 m/s travel, its seems that the engine is robust enough for higher speeds.
    Lets assume they can go up to 100 m/s and keep in the technical limitations (asset loading, MP updates).

    The game could introduce an easy to understand "air friction" formula:

    max speed in m/s = 40 + max( trust_ratio - blocks_front , 0); // for small vehicles

    where angled blocks count by 0.5 and "flat" blocks count as 1
    The block count is basically sampled from the frontal view.

    the thrust_ratio is some value: = min ( factor * (power_output / total_mass) , 42 );

    so the maximum speed could go from 40 m/s (large, heavy ships with very low thrust) up to 80 m/s (slim, light ships with high thrust)

    The player could either make the ship very light, very slim (front) with angled elements, or have a lot of thrust.

    Decorative elements such as wings could be excluded. Non-retracted weapons and gears could be treated with high drag.

    To allow more crazy shapes in late game, there could be some expensive "air flow" addons, that negate the drag (block count in frontal view)
     
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    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
  5. zztong

    zztong Rear Admiral

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    Sure; no debate. We have systems for this today so in-game it seems okay.

    A sustainable "Cruising" speed is usually a trade-off with fuel efficiency. Perhaps you coast down to 75% of your top speed and stay there? This leaves 100% speed for "Military" power.
     
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  6. Dawg711

    Dawg711 Lieutenant

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    The alternative to get promethium not being appealing no disrespect but they do still exist.

    You can not do a POI without promethium? Why? Unless you are bring the structure down for supplies you do not need it. All you need is copper and logs.

    Also you can loot it from the settlements in the Polarise faction. They will not like it but oh well, make it up to them later.

    The change in the start of the game that came with 8 is still there. 8 brought the survival tool and the surface rocks that got you started. It was the end of dropping on the planet and getting right to building. It is my personal opinion that you bought a survival game it is in the tittle so if you did not want a survival game you should not have bought Empyrion. So that said I am glad to see more and more survival in the game. You are right Eleon is trying to please everyone but at what cost? If they are spending time trying to please everyone how much will get cut from the game because there is no time/money left? I feel for those that have different play styles but you do not buy a Semi Truck and then expect to go racing at 200MPH. If you bought a survival game but really do not like them then why buy it? So in many ways I am unhappy with Eleons choice to try to please so many playstyles. I would not buy GTA 5 and tell them it needs to have more survival into it, clearly it is not a survival game.

    As for looting those POI first off I have a feeling that you are going to be finding different types of loot now. Also it is great the way it is. You park an HV outside and you have a 100m radius that you have access to it. Within that you can get food/ammo/meds from it and everything you find goes straight to it!!! This can be done with a CV or an SV as well. So that is a lot better than the getting to the near bottom of the drone base and having to go back up. Also weight is going to be a huge balance for PVP though PVPers are not happy about that just yet. Overall the game is becoming more about design of the craft/base you are using. Back in I think it was A5 you could go from planet to planet in a flying platform completely open. Now you need an airtight areas. Before you could load down with millions of resources and be unstoppable. Now those resources are going to cost you speed and manuverbility. Also in a battler where you start out sluggish smart people will know when you are about out of resources now!!! This is true realism or as close as you get in a Sci Fi game.
     
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  7. geostar1024

    geostar1024 Rear Admiral

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    Agreed.

    If we're going to the trouble of having that complex of a calculation, it might as well be done correctly:

    f_drag = 0.5*C_d*n*A*v^2

    Where C_d is a tuneable drag coefficient, n is the atmospheric density, A is the cross-sectional area (or is at least proportional to it or derived from it in some way) of the ship, and v is the current velocity. Then ships with small cross sections traveling at low speeds would see very little friction, while large ships attempting to travel at high speeds would encounter substantial friction (and, of course, there would be no friction at all in vacuum). This is the classical v-squared formulation of drag and yields a very nice terminal velocity expression that depends on the thrust and mass of the craft:

    v_terminal = sqrt(2*f_thrust/mass / (C_d*n*A))

    So, ships with relatively low acceleration could see an effective cap on their max speed below the server limit. And, ships wanting to travel at terminal velocity would be running their thrusters at full power, meaning that an effective cruise mode velocity (as @zztong notes) could be at some percentage of the terminal velocity; for example, cruising at 75% of terminal velocity would require only half the thrust of cruising at terminal velocity.

    For example, consider an SV with an area of 10 (small) blocks, a mass of 10 tons, and a thrust of 200 kN. Set C_d to 0.01 and assume an atmospheric density of 1 kg/m^3. Then the terminal velocity of this ship is 40 m/s. Increasing the thrust to 500 kN yields 63.2 m/s as the terminal velocity. By contrast, consider a CV with an area of 20 (large) blocks, a mass of 500 tons, and a thrust of 100 MN; its terminal velocity would be 22.4 m/s. And a CV with an area of 400 (large) blocks, a mass of 5kton, and a thrust of 10000 MN would have a terminal velocity of just 15.8 m/s.

    EDIT: I swear I can physics . . . (forgot the mass of the ship)

    EDIT2: As can be seen, this would be an incredible performance differentiator between large and small ships in atmosphere. So much so that I'd argue that CVs could have all their weapons enabled again (they'd need them since they wouldn't have a hope of matching the maneuverability of SVs).
     
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    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
  8. Stuart

    Stuart Ensign

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    Very well put, my 8 year old grandson who loves playing asked me "why is getting so complicated grandad".
     
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