Needs attention Base Attack strength: appropriate or not?

Discussion in 'FAQ & Feedback' started by Hummel-o-War, Jun 23, 2019.

?

BAAT too weak or too strong?

  1. -2 . Laughable

    16 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. -1 . Weak

    11 vote(s)
    34.4%
  3. 0. About right

    1 vote(s)
    3.1%
  4. +1 . Strong

    3 vote(s)
    9.4%
  5. +2. WTF...

    1 vote(s)
    3.1%
  1. Hummel-o-War

    Hummel-o-War Administrator
    Staff Member Community Manager

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    Hi folks,
    As everyone should have had the time to get hands on with the new base attacks, I’d like to ask for your judgement about the ATTACK STRENGHT what means amount and quality of drones, troopers etc. (Not the frequency, as this is governed by other factors)

    Of course this poll is not entirely comparable, but this is also not the goal. Make your choice based on the base that got attacked and the forces you faced in that attack, be it at game start, mid or late game or Poi or own base or whatever. I am asking for your judgement if the attack forces were too weak or too strong given the defenses and capabilities of the attacked base.

    I am not asking for the frequency or the threshold where the base attack happened or if they spawn too close!

    Please join the poll and share this link as this is an important info for the balancing.

    Of course voice your feedback on the given topic here as well.

    Please use the global feedback thread if you want to discuss the feature as a whole.
    https://empyriononline.com/threads/new-base-attack.49958/
     
    #1
  2. [BB]Drifter

    [BB]Drifter Lieutenant

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    To me it seemed pretty much full on when I spawned in. The issue for me though is that I’m playing it alone and I’m not sure if the attacks are scaled or just one strength. Wasn’t there long enough to see what would happen as I died fairly early.

    I would say it’s too strong but with a crew of players it may be just right or too weak if you understand what I’m saying.
     
    #2
  3. Vermillion

    Vermillion Rear Admiral

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    My first base attack with the starter base involved a single troop transport with 4 zirax troopers. Wherein the first problem is that turrets cannot differentiate between transports and troops and an empty transport should be ignored.
    It seems that projectile turrets have seen either a damage nerf or the base attack drones have an inordinate amount of health. It took on average around 15+ shots with a cannon turret to take out a minigun turret during my second base attack with a starter base.

    Unfortunately, in level 1 base attacks, this includes Rocket Base Attack Drones. These are the biggest problem i've encountered in base attacks. It takes roughly 5 rockets, or about 5 seconds for the rocket drones to take out a turret and any subsequent rockets will demolish the base entirely. Coupled with their newly boosted durability they're also firing at an immobile base (100% accuracy) and can fire their rockets far faster than any fixed rocket launcher or the regular rocket drone.
    The only defense against rocket drones is rocket turrets. But rocket ammo requires more work, an SV and a fully functioning base, which attracts base attacks, which results in catch-22. Factor in their cheaty spawn distance and they instantly take out the rocket turrets as they spawn.

    Remote hacking... i've only encountered it once. When a zirax trooper got stuck between the terrain and the wall of my second base. He could've gotten out of there, his buddies certainly did. I killed him before he finished, but the fact that he started it and only 15 or so blocks from the core is concerning.
    Personally, I don't want to see remote hacking be possible at all. Instead have the troopers that get stuck select the nearest major device as a target, then proceed to reaquire the core if they succeed. They either take out the base one piece at a time, or eventually get to the core. If they can't get to any device or the core, they call in a rocket drone (if there isn't one already) to target the core and blow a hole to it.
     
    #3
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  4. Sephrajin

    Sephrajin Rear Admiral

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    In MP, I had started with my ERA-B EGS starterbase, providing 1 30mm Canon.
    At first I produced some ammo and added more projectil turrets to the Queue.

    6 cannons later the first attack was announced.
    3 drones (dont recall what), due to me just observing, they managed to destroy a solar Panel - at which Point I started to interact since the constructor (and Cargo) was just behind that Panel.

    Added 2 more cannons and never ever had to bother or care About an attack - on the starter.

    ----
    Since I knew what to expect and had proper preparations, it wasnt as hard, devasting or challenging at all.
    --> If i werent at the base during the first attack, i'd probably had lost everything! ;)
    I'm Pretty sure a new Player would experience the same Situation very different, it was on a 'medium' difficulty planet though. (Mobs from lvl 5-9)

    -----

    After leaving the starter System with my Faction, we settled on a breathable cool planet.
    After some Action, we've achieved hostility with Zirax and after laying down the General outline of the base, we've got an attack Chance of 55%.

    Thus, everytime i log in now, i hear the Alarm go on, warning of Incoming zirax.
    (not the Topic, just stating)

    I then usualy see 1 trooptransporter and not sure wether or not or how many drones were with it, as it sounds that it might have shot one or two down until I was loaded completly into the game.

    Since the bases is called Fortress and 'consists' mostly of walls surround an area to park 1x 280x100m CV and some smaller ones within, it has some weapons installed -> though, still only 'starter' amounts.
    * 1 artillery
    * 6 30mm
    * 1 flak
    * 1 155mm h-msl

    They did manage once to get near the core… Standing next aside it to start remote hacking (that violet/Purple bubble - i assume)…
    Placed some automated sentry's to protect the close by area of the core, and eversince, I usualy just see 'gratulations, you have defeated the attack wave' upon Login or arriving at base to defend.

    I like it as it is.
    It is something to Keep in mind - be Aware and plan your base accordingly - while not threating too much directly, as there IS a Chance that they CAN slip through your defences regardless.

    The server's General difficulty is medium AFAIK.
     
    #4
  5. Jieirn

    Jieirn Lieutenant

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    3 days in with 4 people playing and we have forgotten that base attacks exists. The only issue I have is shield strength overall, which means that sometimes my ships parked at the base get damaged before the base.
     
    #5
  6. Ravis

    Ravis Commander

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    I can see why people would have issues early game with maybe 2 ish turrets. But there's a drop off after that, 3+ and base attacks seem to drop off in significants pritty quick.

    My actually experience, while I loose a turret once in a while. It still has never made me build anything more than projectile turrets. I'm on the alien planet and I've had a transport land once. No troops lived longer than Probably a few seconds. no more than 5 drones or transports at a time.
     
    #6
  7. Zaflis

    Zaflis Commander

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    On easy difficulty i had a base with 4 cannon turrets (on roof corners) and 4 sentries at corners just block above ground level. First attack and i lost 1 sentry and troop transport retreated before the turrets got it down. Added a few more turrets since but they can't seem to shoot down the transports. But i'm not gonna vote on OP cause i've had too few attacks to have an opinion. I can say they're manageable, if you rush the turrets fast right after building the base, and assuming you mined enough ores to build all needed ammo etc.
     
    #7
  8. Scoob

    Scoob Rear Admiral

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    I picked "Weak" because the initial attacks even vs. a fairly lightly armed base seem, well, a little weak - at least to a prepared player. I fully accept that this attack may well have been overwhelming for a less experience / prepared player.

    Additionally, I've been a little disappointed thus far that the attacks have remained weak despite my Base being quite heavily updated over time - the Zirax seem to think the same three Light Drones will have a chance...they don't. Equally, I only very very rarely see a Troop Transport, which is disappointing.

    After my very first base attack, which consisted (IIRC) of a Troop Transport and a Drone or two, actually managed to land some Zirax Troops, I ramped up my defences substantially in anticipation of future attacks, which never really came to much.

    I have actually just posted a thread on the subject of whether Base attacks ramp up over time or not - I think they should, but perhaps via an optional gamestart setting. In prior game versions - admittedly some time ago now - I'd regularly set up playfields with ever increasing Drones waves of more and tougher drones...was awesome! I've tried to stay vanilla for quite some time now though, in an attempt to aid with testing.

    Also, I do still wonder why the Troop Transport from that very first attack, dug some fairly substantial holes in the landscape near by base.

    Scoob.
     
    #8
  9. andresdebuenr

    andresdebuenr Ensign

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    Truth be told, base attacks in SP, Coop or MP are pretty laughable. Of course, it might seem they are challenging when you are running barefeet and naked, but this can be changed really fast. In 3 hours of gameplay you can perfectly create a small base with some turrets. The problem is, as soon as you place turrets on your base, base attacks are pretty unchallenging. Increasing difficulty does not make it any fun either, it just adds more HP to enemies.
    However, increasing the attacking size, or making it an adjustable option in the game would be brilliant.
    In fact, I would love to see an in-game option to adjust the enemy's attack on your bas; such options could be:
    *Low-Medium-High-Ultimate (fixed number of enemy NPC's with random enemy type, increasing with difficulty)
    *Scalable (Enemy forces increase with the number of turrets or block in your base, through personal level or through time. Planet difficulty also affects size).
    *Customized (You can choose the number of NPC's spawn probability and type of NPC that can attack your base; also you ca adjust the frequency of the attacks.
    * (in a checkbox, can be coupled with all other options) Allow NPC use of HVs, SVs and CVs (For a funnier and more dynamic defending experience, you can toggle this option to allow the enemy to use even Capital Vessels to attack your base.
    * (in a checkbox-can be coupled with all other options) Allow waves in base attack. (this option could also enable a wave customization menu;

    The thing is, base attacks are pretty unchallenging and pointless after early game. I'd love to see an army swarm to my base and test my defenses.
    You can be overpowered in the game pretty easily. And I would not my options to be nerfed in any way; on the contrary, I'd love to see my challenges and number of enemies increase in return.

    Another voxel game, 7 days to die, executes this nicely. Every 7th day, no matter how badass your base is, it is put to the ultimate test. And the longer you've been there, the harder and more numerous your enemies become.

    I'd love to see that in this game.
     
    #9
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  10. Zaflis

    Zaflis Commander

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    Maybe as an option though, i uninstalled the game after 26 hours... Built a couple bases in that time even in multiplayer and they all fell. We don't have infinite technology tree or infinite amount of turrets possible to be built that we would need to compensate for enemies that never stop growing in strength.
     
    #10
  11. Jawatraders

    Jawatraders Lieutenant

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    I think having the attack scale with the number of turrets/defenses would be a great idea. Also, I would love to see more specialized ground troopers, so as your base gets more powerful you're facing more power troops that have different skill sets.

    I also think that there should be a certain point where a PV is spawned in with the attack force. I'm not sure how you could determine if a base is strong enough for a PV, but it could serve as a spawning point for additional troop transports.
     
    #11
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  12. Robin

    Robin Lieutenant

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    Die Basisangriffe sind lächerlich einfach. 4 einfache Geschütztürme auf dem Dach und schon schafft es der Truppentransporter noch nicht mal zu landen.

    Basisangriffe sollten dynamisch an Stärke zunehmen, wenn diese vom Spieler ohne Probleme abgewehrt werden. Eventuell könnte das Spiel messen, wie schnell der Spieler die Gegner zerstört und dann für den nächsten Angriff einen Bonus oder Malus auf einen Angriffswert hinzurechnen.

    Truppentransporter können viel zu schnell zerstört werden. Sie sollten sich gegen Angriffe mit einem kleinen Raumschiff oder Bodengleiter auch selbst verteidigen können. Zum Beispiel mit Raketen. Außerdem sollten Truppentransporter ein gutes Schutzschild haben.

    Truppentransporter sollten etwas intelligenter agieren. Wichtig ist schon mal, dass sie beim Spieler mit vollen Trefferpunkte überhaupt ankommen. Das ist oft nicht der Fall. Dann sollte der Truppentransporter zum Absetzen seiner Ladung sofort ansetzen, wenn seine Trefferpunkte unter 50% fallen. Das erfolgreiche Absetzen der Truppen sollte der Regelfall sein.

    Wobei ich sagen muss, dass ich im normalen Schwierigkeitsgrad bisher gespielt habe. Allerdings auf einem Planten mit hohem Schwierigkeitsgrad, wo viele Stufe 10 Gegner sind.

    Fazit: Basisangriffe sind für mich derzeit von geringer Bedeutung.

    PS: Ich bin Einzelspieler

    - - - -

    Unfortunately, I can only speak very little English. Translation program German – English:

    The base attacks are ridiculously easy. 4 simple turrets on the roof and even the troop transport does not even manage to land.

    Basic attacks should increase in strength dynamically if they are defended by the player without any problems. Eventually the game could measure how fast the player destroys the opponents and then adds a bonus or penalty to an attack value for the next attack.

    Troop carriers can be destroyed too fast. They should also be able to defend themselves against attacks with a small spaceship or Floor Glides. For example with rockets. In addition, troop transporters should have a good protective shield.

    Troop carriers should act a little smarter. It is important that they arrive at the player with full hit points at all. This is often not the case. Then the troop transport should drop off its charge immediately if its hit points fall below 50%. The successful put down the troops should be the rule.

    But I have to say that I have played at normal difficulty so far. However, on a high difficulty planet where many level 10 enemies.

    Conclusion: Basic attacks are currently of little importance to me.

    PS: I am a single player
     
    #12
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  13. andresdebuenr

    andresdebuenr Ensign

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    Well, thats new; I've never lost a base and I'm pretty sure I don't have my base optimized for protection. I only play PVE, only on private servers. Sometimes Coop with a couple of friends.
    And yeah, i'd love to see it as an option. Using an algorythm based on player level, base size, planet difficulty and amount of resourses owned by player or faction, game progression, etc. would increase not only the chance of an attack (but the enemy numbers aswell).
    I wrote a threat in which i elaborate on this proposal, I'd love it if you guys could check it out and give some feedback:
    https://empyriononline.com/threads/...-better-base-attacks-on-sp-coop-and-mp.57538/
     
    #13
  14. Sephrajin

    Sephrajin Rear Admiral

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    After my inital post of saying:
    Well done/balanced - i have to revise that.

    First aatacks on the starter seemed strong.
    After 2 attacks i had enough turrets to ingore the warning.

    It got worse on the non-starter planet.
    Whhile at the beginning, each time i loged on, there was a warning...
    After they started that purple bubble and got shot down....
    I never ever seen an attack again....

    Base was class 12. (~6% chance by its own)
    Attack chance was at 55%.

    Silent for days to come....
    Despite having a drone base 2km afar left AND right...

    Atacks needs to be stronger on non-starter planet!
     
    #14
  15. Bollen

    Bollen Captain

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    I always play SP and since Alpha 5 I always start the same way: when I'm approaching in the Escape Pod I aim at a hill near water. First thing I'll do is build myself a cave where I put my tent and all survival equipment.

    - When base attack got implemented I was shocked (version 10)! My first base was basically a series of complex tunnels, the core was deep in the tunnel and I only had a few solar panels, capacitors, a basic concrete structure at the entrance to hold a door. When I got the alert I ran down the tunnels towards the door and to my shock and horror I found a couple of Zirax trying to destroy the core!!! I mean several meters into a complex web of tunnels, amazing!!! After I killed them I realise that they had destroyed the door and found their way perfectly all the way in.

    - Since about version 10.1 or perhaps 10.2, this has not happened again. Now they stay far away and try to hack the core from there... Boo!

    - Once I built a few sentries and place them strategically around the area near the base, I never had to worry again. Since most of the sentries are hidden between bushes and trees I haven't even lost one!

    It needs work, it's laughable!
     
    #15
  16. Wolfoot

    Wolfoot Ensign

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    Alpha 10.4.

    While in travel, they are very weak, but in fire range they are some time too powerfull, especialy those with rockets.
    In low level progression, they often wipe a part of my base before a turret can dispatch them. I find that taking a SV when the alarm rings and get shoot them in flight is much more effective, as they never reply...
     
    #16
  17. Cluascorp

    Cluascorp Lieutenant

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    the rocket drones are the worst, even if I survive, it will take hours to repair the damage ...
     
    #17
  18. Scoob

    Scoob Rear Admiral

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    It's very difficult to say whether attack strength is balanced or not when there are issues which impact it. In general, I find them to be a little weak if my Turrets all fire appropriately. However, often they do not. Much of the time my basic Cannon Turrets simply don't open fire until the targets are much closer than they should need to be, based on the reported actual range of the turrets. I regularly see my bases Cannon Turrets simply not engaging until the Drones have gotten really close - I'm not 100% sure of the effective ranges of the various Drones, but even the most basic one will regularly fire long before my Cannons open up. Note that I can manually control one of my Cannon Turrets and shoot most Drones before they open fire, it just doesn't happen reliably automatically.

    There is also a second part to this, where I'm standing on my Base dictates when my turrets will open up. If I'm nearer the other side of my base, away from where the enemy Drones are approaching, my Turrets open fire even later. If however, I'm nearer the side the Drones are, then my Turrets open up soon. Where I'm standing has such a huge impact on when my Turrets fire.

    On some of my larger, sprawling bases - say with a large Landing pad for CV's on one side, it's possible for me to be in such a position that the Drones are shooting up my base, but none of my Turrets open fire. This is frustrating.

    So, the number of Drones, Troop Transports usually feels a bit weak - other than the initial attack which I usually fend off with a hand gun as it comes moments after placing the Starter Block / setting the Core to Private/Faction on one of the "Free" bases. However, when Turrets fail to fire promptly, as per my above description, then even a "weak" attack can be quite devastating. Sadly, I simply cannot always rely on my Turrets to take care of an enemy if I'm standing in the "wrong" place when they approach.

    Note: I think we should have to build a BA Radar to "detect" Drone attacks and get a brief message of the Direction it's coming from - Just something like "Zirax base attack inbound, approaching from the North West" for example. But that's for a future update :)

    At the end of the day, Drone attacks are great but the behaviour of Turrets can be very inconsistent based on positioning of the Player on their base, as well as time played that session - I notice Turrets are much more laggy / unreliable after a longer play session. It's possible to save the game with Turrets being totally inactive yet, upon reloaded, they instantly engage the enemy.

    I don't know what the underlying cause is, perhaps it's linked to the "live" area around the player where a Turret is in this range, but a Drone isn't so cannot be "seen", or whether it's something else linked to the degradation I see in Turret behaviour over a longer play session. I've tried to save a snapshot of Turret behaving badly, but a reload inevitably sees them wake up in most cases. Note: that I just play SP at the moment.

    Scoob.
     
    #18
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  19. piddlefoot

    piddlefoot Rear Admiral

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    The problem with base attacks is not how strong the attack is, but how they use a completely non tactical approach.

    The Zirax use Roman 2000 year old tactics of CHARGE all at once and when the pathfinding fails they INSTANTLY hack your base and in seconds its gone and you have no real defense for that.

    What needs to happen to balance these enemy troops is a slower progression to the base, the ability to hide behind a rock or trees or other objects, the ability to pathfind to a re-treatable position and then wait a few seconds return fire from that position and then move forward again.

    Would you run at a 50 cal cannon firing straight at you, no ?

    They do, its laughable.

    Rocket troops should be troops that dont actually ever enter your base, they provide cover for there other troops at a distance, shooting at your turrets etc, they need targeting assignments.
    There also should not be to many of them.

    Example, drone ship lands and drops troops off, the rocket guys spread left and right and take up positions just inside there firing range to hit your base, they hold position, the rest of the troops progress up to the base in two waves, one to left and one to right, the snipers hang out with the rocket guys, just a fraction closer than the rocket guys , the shotty and gat gun troops make the charge to the base, and NOT in single file like they do now, thats really whacky , they need to spread out and its these troops that need to be able to take cover when fired at.
    No hacking until within 20m of core, they must fight there way in and blast there way through base walls.

    Now that type of attack is much more progressive and gives players a chance to defend there base from a lame hack attack.

    Troops should not be able to hack a base unless they get to within 20m of the core. Period.

    They should be forced to blast there way in, just like we are.

    The Hack attack, really is the lamest part of this whole feature.
    It stinks of taking a short cut.

    Unity is capable of much better AI.

    Its the AI that will, in the long run, earn this game its reputation, being a game that leans on PvE in SP or MP it stands out, because this game has good MP and good SP and its the AI that can improve both platforms into epicness.

    One thing thats really stupid, the Talon can hack now, WTF, what the actual ____ !
    These are the guys with bow and arrows, spears and no advanced shizlings , doing 24th century hacking all of a sudden, the most backwards thing in this game so far and really should be just removed completely, Talon are supposed to be primitive, they SHOULD be easy to stop in a base attack, this could be used to take advantage of the EASY MEDIUM HARD settings, but its not even that, its just the lamest of lame to allow primitive critters to hack ones base. !!!
    Any mob / faction that bring spears to a gun fight deserve to be ant food.

    TALON Tactics, should be Guerrilla warfare , a form of irregular warfare in which small groups of combatants, such as paramilitary personnel, armed civilians, or irregulars, ie Talon Guards, use military tactics including ambushes, sabotage, raids, petty warfare, hit-and-run tactics, and mobility, to fight a larger and less-mobile traditional military, thats you !

    Why not assign the Talon to become a menace to the player all over the starter planet with such tactics, and get the player ready for whats to come later with serious base attacks.

    They are natives, we effectively invaded there home first.

    Make the AI great !

    People remember good AI.
    People promote games with good AI.
    Better than that, good AI can keep a game alive for literally thousands of extra play hours for people.
    Excellent ratings, excellent reviews, good AI brings all of these things, bad AI, will burn in all of these areas and seriously damage the games long term reputation.
    Which is what its sales rely on to a point, word of mouth is very powerful in the gaming industry.

    Empyrions AI, I know is new, and its Eleons first PC game, and they have bitten off a lot, but its this feature that I recon will define whether Empyrion becomes a thousands of hours game for most players, other than dedicated builders who will clock them hours anyway, good AI draws the most of the rest of the crowd in.

    AI should be a huge focus, for a long time, with a focus on making it more enjoyable, rather than rudimentary tactics of rush charging the base in a group single file to literally just over whelm the player in seconds, make the fight interesting.

    Something else that should be considered, players having the ability to grow clones, to make troops or workers.
    Players with lets say up to 4 or 6 helpers, allow the player to choose if they want 4 troops or 4 workers, or a mix of both, and allow the player to assign the troops to a position or to follow player or to hold or cover a position, 3 commands, a lot of games have done this to great success.
    Workers need more commands, and are probably more complex to program, so toss the troops at the game first and learn all the pathfinding tricks needed to do it for player helper AI.

    Maybe limit it to 2 clones in MP per player.

    But this should be on the list of features to do, and the closed testers should be testing this sort of stuff sooner rather than later I recon.

    Not easy I know, but,,,We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too.

    !!!
     
    #19
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
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  20. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    Yesterday I had some drones shot down by my turrets.

    Today 2 troop transport ships approached; 1 was under focus of all my turrets, other one had time to drop some guys but was shot when going back up. I shot the guys running towards my base except 2 that made it to the lower part of the walls where I had no angle.

    I went down an elevator and followed their noise (these guys don't know how to infiltrate! ).

    I had to jump down to find them... the little rascals made a hole in my walls ! (shields were down...)

    zirax-drill.png


    Let's hope it's just a "placeholder" to satisfy the impatient ones while devs experiment and (hopefully) make many more animations, sounds and tactics...

    -----------------------------------------

    I remember when the "Factory" was introduced into the game, forcing everyone to have a base to spawn a blueprint. In the following days/ weeks, many players (and myself) made some cheap BA platforms BPs to be able to spawn ships on them. Evidently, when making such platforms, the core usually rests in the middle of the lowest row of blocks, just like my actual base I use to test the Zirax attacks is built on top of a 10 blocks tall x 40 x 40 blocks, armored concrete. I think that this may have induced a problem that some people interpreted as "players hiding their core below the surface"... Well why should anyone put the most precious device on top of a pillar for everyone to shoot at from a distance ?

    Given the state of structural integrity, making the base's "foundation" a thick slab is just normal. When placing a base blueprint, there needs to be something under it to allow placement on bumpy terrains, else players have to flatten it to avoid having the terrain invading lower rooms.
     
    #20
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
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