CV Reaction Control System (RCS) needs Larger Size?

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Cain, Sep 1, 2015.

  1. Cain

    Cain Ensign

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    View attachment 1929 So we all dream of huge capital ships. Just built a monster in creative mode. Babylon 5 Nova Dreadnought that stayed true to the statistics except it's ONLY 1/3rd scale (about 170 blocks long or 510 meters long. Online statistics at Earth Force Naval Intelligence (efni.org) have it at at 1600 meters or so. I built it with 2 block of ablative armor, an empty block for maintenance access and final layer interior block acting as inner hull so, true to form, she is pretty heavy...

    The problem is that after 400+ Meganewton/meter reaction wheels the little lady still won't turn worth a damn. I did the napkin calculation based on a best guess for the number of blocks at 30,000 (at 120kg per that's 3.6 thousand metric tons), the moment of inertia for this beast came to about 80E9 kg/m^2 (!!!) and with the torque the 400 MNm wheels can provide the angular acceleration is in the range of 5E-6 radians/s^2. Sure enough she shouldn't be turning much at all...

    So, big capital ships really do need a Giga or even Tetra Newton per meter class RCS system. Can this be implemented? I would really like to face my opponents...
     
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    Last edited: Sep 1, 2015
  2. Arturius1967

    Arturius1967 Captain

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    Nice one, I loved Babylon 5.

    Time to start my Empyrion version of the Battlecrab.
     
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  3. Rannoc McMaulin

    Rannoc McMaulin Commander

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    Thats from Bab5? Need to go watch the series. Only seen a few of the movies. I thought you were going for a Caldari mothership (Wyven) from Eve Online.

    View attachment 2001
     
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  4. Cain

    Cain Ensign

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    Battle crab would be fun! Thinking of a SV White Star next with two "floors". It'll be huge and power hungry but I'm really just curious how large you can go with the SV size before it succumbs to the same lack of RCS control as the CV size
     
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  5. Tako

    Tako Lieutenant

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    I concur with this... my Capital Ship takes ages to turn.
     
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  6. Maddreg

    Maddreg Lieutenant

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    Maybe you need to import the blueprint of your ship to creative mode and add more and more RCS to check if that helps?
     
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  7. Rannoc McMaulin

    Rannoc McMaulin Commander

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    I think there is still some kinks to workout in the flight mechanics. I have seen very large CV be able to Roll no problem but Pitch and Yaw are super slow regardless of how many RCS you have installed. For example a 250 block long ship with 300+ RCS's has an almost unnoticeable movement in Pitch and Yaw, yet Rolls almost as fast as my 4T SV.
     
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  8. Cain

    Cain Ensign

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    Actually the version I showed here was the one I pulled into creative mode to work on. I got up to about 800 RCS or so I estimate. Even using the arrow keys (not mouse) she still couldn't turn to face an attacker. As Rannoc clarified, pitch and yaw just aren't responsive enough but roll does seem to function.

    At this point I'm thinking about smaller nimble CV ships... something more like the B5 White Star or Star Trek Defiance but with a landing area just large enough to accommodate a small SV or two.
     
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  9. Memphis

    Memphis Lieutenant

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    I put that together. It essentially is based on the Voyager from Startrek.

    [​IMG]
    I found, that when she rolls the pitch and yaw response a bit better. However, she is still not as agile as I want her to.

    In addition: I tested a bit with the RCS and found, that pitch/yaw often stucks at certain angels. Which means the test-craft suddenly stuck in the certain angle for a moment. Do you also have this experience?
     
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  10. Blimy

    Blimy Commander

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    :D :D :D
    Love your description!
     
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  11. Memphis

    Memphis Lieutenant

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    Does it matter in which direction these devices are added? Like the gravity generator.
     
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  12. Blimy

    Blimy Commander

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  13. Cain

    Cain Ensign

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    THE SITUATION
    First off, beautifully done Voyager! Would love to see more images or even play with the blue print if you end up posting it.

    To answer your question I can't say I found the pitch & yaw "sticking" per say... Just today I noticed v3.10 patch did increase the CV reaction wheels from 1 to 20 MN/m. I jumped back in creative mode and slapped on another 400 RCS systems bringing the total to just over 1k RCS.

    Taking the helm I would categorize my CV controls as follows:
    Roll: Excellent. Works quite well relative to the other controls. In line with what I would expect from trying to rotate this heavy lass about her centerline.
    Yaw: Deficient. Better than before but still no where near enough. I would say it takes a full minute to change heading by 5 degrees.
    Pitch: Nonfunctional. Very close to being completely unresponsive. I held the arrow key for about 30 seconds before concluding the distant star I was using for reference had the same pixels on my screen illuminated the entire time. Would be faster to roll 90 degrees and adjust yaw.

    So as for getting stuck, well, I can't say I am able to notice it...?

    THOUGHTS FOR DEALING WITH IT
    I think my lesson here is only armor the side that will face the enemy and keep the mass down. Use non-hull blocks or anything that doesn't weigh 120 kg. Remember ALL hull blocks have 20 armor, 25 hp, AND ring in at 120 kgs (regardless of being cube, wedge, corner, etc...wha-?). Ramps are only 16 kg (armor and hp unknown?) and windows are 12 kg with 15 armor and 20 hp. I think my next CV will aim to be light as a feather except in the nose.

    WISHFUL THINKING I HOPE THE DEVELOPERS READ
    I would love to see the orientation of the RCS matter. A reaction wheel revolves about a shaft and has no impact on axes other than that centerline. This is already the philosophy with the directional thrusters... it would add to the complexity of controls but would also force the ship designer to choose which directions a vessel would be more maneuverable in giving a ship personality.

    I know this is a tall order but if the Center of Mass (CM) could be calculated for a CV while building it, perhaps the directional thrusters (or for coding simplicity a different thruster module) could be used to evoke pitch and yaw movement. ie having a forward thruster pointing starboard and an aft thruster pointing to port could be activated together and then the ship turns left. In reality thrusters are FAR more effective (read "faster") for maneuvering than reaction wheels and reaction wheels are more effective than magnetorquers.

    All this being said I am quite impressed with the developer's efforts in pushing through new content. Procedural generation is a tough nut to crack. The scope of environments where particular physics must be in place is quite staggering (space, air, land, sea).
     
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  14. Memphis

    Memphis Lieutenant

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    Well, since my ship has less mass it reacts a bit better then yours I think. I try to make a video to illustrate the behavior.

    Small addition: Last time I was attacked it started from side - not frontal. One drone managed to crack a piece of my double hull and destroyed eventually one of my fueltanks. Which in turn exploded with all the others in a chain reaction. One possible missdesign :/

    sign

    I will upload the shematics soon. But first, I need to correct some design issues ;-)
    [Edit]: Its now available at the Blueprint section of the board.
     
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    Last edited: Sep 11, 2015
  15. Arturius1967

    Arturius1967 Captain

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    Started the Battlecrab now.
    The top layer silhouette is finished.
    Was pain to do it, without the possibility for import images or models as reference.
    2015-09-11_00008.jpg
     
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  16. Arturius1967

    Arturius1967 Captain

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    Second layer (mid section) half finished.
    2 feelers (mid layer) and 2 legs (bottom layer) remain on each side.

    2015-09-13_00001.jpg
     
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  17. Arturius1967

    Arturius1967 Captain

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  18. Cain

    Cain Ensign

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    @Arturius1967 You might find it amusing that as I build my white star I've got your battle crab between me and the sun casting an ominous shadow... no pun intended. I can also say now with even more authority now that I dove into the white star construction that I'm even more impressed with the organic curvature you managed to create for each spine and the body of the crab.

    On a side note have you seen a starfury SV around?
     
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  19. Arturius1967

    Arturius1967 Captain

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    Thank you. Well this took me a long time and if I'm honest, few times I was short before giving up, but then I deconstructed the part which I was not satisfied with and did build it again ;)
    Sometimes you just need patience and fixity of purpose :D

    Didn't see any, but it's on my todo list.
    I created one for SE, just have to recreate it for Empyrion. ;)
     
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  20. Arturius1967

    Arturius1967 Captain

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