Difficulty spikes

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by TrashMan, Jun 6, 2021.

  1. TrashMan

    TrashMan Commander

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    The updated game has some big difficutly spikes.

    The first one is when you have to check out the crashed Titan. I made a warp capable SV and went there, land near, disembark and head towards the entrance only to die from an explosion...turns out if was an enemy CV that just appeared out of nowhere. Worse, it had HOMING MISSILES, so no dodging.
    It then proceeded to obliterate my parked SV, leaving me trapped on the snow planet with nothing.

    Some more warning on the level of resistance would be nice, perhaps IDA warning you that an enemy CV is nearby.


    The second is the Ilamren. The re-worked ship is great. But the sheer number of turrets and enemies thrown at you is absurd. Even with heavy armor and all weapons, just don't have anything that can skill fast enough, expect the super shotgun - and even that is not enough when you are swarmed. Enemies constantly spawning/teleporting around you is annoying as hell. The minigun is worse than useless, as it takes too long to kill anything with it. Both it's ammo capacity and RoF need a serious boost.
    Also, the turret override switch/code for the hangar turrets doesn't seem to work.
     
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  2. Milarwen

    Milarwen Lieutenant

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    I agree, the spawns in tight quarters, specially when it comes to melee based enemies is bad. I generally hate zombie shooters, it is just not my thing. Besides, even with
    Epic Armor
    we are very bad equipped for a zombie shooter.

    Some mobs also moves very fast, and in a whimsical fashion, like zig zag pattern, making it very hard to hit them with any ranged weapon. To top that of, some of them spawns behind you silently. Also because of the nature of the game itself, you can't use sound to track them down as sound travels through walls and floors.

    Eleon should really give us something better to fight of these swarms of zombie type mobs. I suggest they give the chain saw new life as a zombie corps grinder. Doom made it iconic, Eleon could breathe life to the idea.
     
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    Last edited: Jun 7, 2021
  3. bluemax151

    bluemax151 Captain

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    Even the crashed Heidelberg was a bit much imo. You literally just started and the quest you go to get a hoverbike has you fighting Drones AND Zirax foot soldiers. Hopefully players that have made it this far already constructed an AR and possibly a SR.

    I like the ilmarinen with the additional "spooky" Legacy dialogue but it is a drastic upscale in difficulty from the original model for sure. At least they fixed the bug were the doors would all lock you out the 1st time you died. They need to make the robot in the cargo hold actually target the Legacy units though. Kind of odd to have it wandering around with Legacy swarming around it.
     
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  4. japp_02

    japp_02 Commander

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    I cannot speak about the new Titan missions, but for the Ilimarinen you need to have a good stock of different armor suits because they wear off very fast and then get useless killing you in seconds if things get hot. A good placement of your vehicle for container transfers via F4 is crucial, you don't want to carry all your medicines etc. Also use different types of weapons depending on enemy range, review the damage statistics, the plasma blaster is very good against sentry guns. You need to get used moving fast with activated jetpack to evade groups of enemies which get close. All in all it's a question of how you play, it's not meant to be easy, you haven't bought a survival game to walk in the park...And it should be obvious that you are not doing these missions in a bulk one after the other, you need to get prepared, that's up to you.
     
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  5. TrashMan

    TrashMan Commander

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    But don't you TELEPORT to the Ilamren? You vehicle won't be anywhere near if you follow the story structure.

    Flying high to avoid mele enemies with the jetpack is strategy n01 - always ahs been. But it has problems:
    1) much more tight spaces now, you cannot jetpack out of reach.
    2) the gravity generators are online, it makes no sense to jetpack around like you're in zero-G to begin with.


    You know what to expect, because you played this before, but the game itself does nothing to prepare you for it.
    Just because I can spend several Real Life days grinding to build a mega CV and blow the Ilmaren apart without fighting zombies at all, doesn't mean there aren't problem. Heck , I can use godmode as well. The console IS part of the game after all. Precisely because you can reach this mission with just a basic rifle and armor, and with your own big HV and full arsenal, is this a problem. That's WAAY to large of a gap.
    The mission should have "you need AT LEAST x , Y and Z" warning, and even then it may not be enough.

    You illustrate the problem yourself. You need to bring SEVERAL spare armors. What new player will think of that? And to further complicate things, you can only change armors in an armor locker. IF you're stuck 2 decks from the nearest one with a hallways full of turrets, you're boned.

    There's too many enemies. They just keep spawning. 5-6 overseers, tons of zombies all spawning in a small tight room. This isnt' supposed to be Doom.
     
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    Last edited: Jun 11, 2021
  6. Escarli

    Escarli Rear Admiral

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    There is a repair station in the hangar near the teleporter.

    Should also be easier than the one in 1.4
     
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  7. TrashMan

    TrashMan Commander

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    I found it much more difficult. Can't use the jetpack cheese as much (smaller celings and room) and much more turrets.
     
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  8. Escarli

    Escarli Rear Admiral

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    There are no new turrets added to it in 1.5 with no shaping changes done either.

    There are some ranged infected instead of a pure horde of melee npcs coming right at you.
     
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  9. japp_02

    japp_02 Commander

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    Also often use your drone (F5) if you suspect an amassment of enemies, in this case you must use your sniper at good distance. You can use explosives on doors, objects or walls to trap NPCs.
    About the teleporter: Can't you teleport back and bring-in your ship? In 1.4- I was able to do that.
    BTW, if you ever are underpowered (running out of medecines, ammo or space suits etc.) you can always leave and return.
     
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  10. TrashMan

    TrashMan Commander

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    I mean with the POI changes there's a lot of turrets in the ship now compared to the previous Ilmaren.
     
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  11. IndigoWyrd

    IndigoWyrd Rear Admiral

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    If I'm not mistaken, and it has been quite some time since I spent resources making one, the Chainsaw can be used as a weapon already. But that said, you're forgetting about the King of Close Combat: The Shotgun. Works wonders on mobs that come out of nowhere. You're also forgetting about one more vital tool for your survival, but I'm going to make you wait and read on to find out what that is....

    So... about the Heidelberg... this is more a matter of play-style, but here's my highly-condensed experience:

    1. Crash on alien planet.
    2. Clean out escape pod.
    3. Gather plant protein and fiber along with crushed stone and wood.
    4. Construct a shelter
    5. Expand the shelter and make it defensible
    6. Continue gathering materials to make life livable.
    7. Continue to expand shelter into military fortification.
    8. Construct utility HV to aid in gathering materials.
    9. Further fortify base.
    10. Construct small SV for air-to-air combat with annoying drones.
    11. Secure base area (I got a patrol ship with mine, but it was just outside of range to target my base*)
    12. Once secure, fortified and expanded, stocked and supplied, start messing with missions.

    By the time I got to the Heidelberg, I was able to use the machineguns on my SV to melt down the couple of troopers prowling around it, so they really weren't a concern for me.

    * At least until I annoyed it enough that it started shooting at me and followed me back into range of the rocket, cannon and minigun turrets around my base, which took it apart quite nicely and it wound up in pieces in my Raw Materials container, to be recycled into more parts.

    So what's that One Other Thing Vital to Your Survival? It's your DRONE.
    You never approach a wreck, POI or other "interesting" thing without sending your drone to scout ahead. If you drone gets taken out, you know there's danger. If you spot enemies, you know there's danger. If nothing happens, you still suspect danger, as your drone won't trigger spawn plates, but odds are, they're probably there anyways, so be prepared to fight. Also, if you've got at least light armor, which there's no reason not to, you have a Jet Pack, and that can put you out of enemy reach in no time - even the extendible necks of Horrors. Don't be afraid or forget to use it. One block of higher ground can mean the difference between survival and respawning.
     
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  12. Pembroke

    Pembroke Commander

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    When you teleport there's a hangar bay you can open, and I think in the newest iteration of Ilmarinen-mission, the game actually recommends you to check the map and bring your ship there.

    ...but I agree with this thread. There are big difficulty spikes in the campaign story, and some of them can be quite frustrating. Of course, it's really hard to find a good balance:

    1) If it's too easy then combat oriented and/or experienced players have no challenge and lose interest.
    2) If it's too hard then non-combat oriented and/or new players hit a stone wall and get frustrated because they can't progress.

    It's a sign of a well-designed and good game if it can find the correct balance. However, sometimes there simply is no single solution that would fit for both. Then you should think of some alternative ways to handle it.

    My suggestion: In those more problematic campaign story missions, offer alternative paths to complete it. For example, in the Ilmarinen you could have one way through the ship that gives you enemies in numbers and power suitable for someone who prefers an easier combat challenge, and then you could have an alternative way with more and harder enemies. This choice could be given to the player, for example, as a switch that opens an otherwise locked section of the ship. The catch between these choices would then be that the easier path has no epic loot containers. If you want those, you must choose the harder path. In the storey it could be IDA giving you hints about these so you know what is going on.

    This way a player that is stone walled by the difficulty spike could still complete the mission if he's willing to forego the epic loot, and so progress the campaign story to the next chapter. Similar solutions can probably be added to other missions that can't be balanced otherwise.

    Of course, this would only need to be done to the *campaign story* missions. All the other random POIs can be as they are since it's always your choice whether you raid them or not. The story does not require you to complete them so they are already "optional" in this sense.
     
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  13. GoldDragon

    GoldDragon Captain

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    And removing epic loot containers, even in story missions, is simply going to make those who must take the easier path (due to RL issues, too) frustrated and complain. Then give bad ratings, which will hurt the game even more.
     
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  14. IndigoWyrd

    IndigoWyrd Rear Admiral

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    Anybody with more than an hour's experience knows to disregard Steam ratings. Porn puzzle-flipper game, glowing review. Game in development, terrible review. Happens all the time, and should never be considered by anyone. Form your own opinions, do your own work, don't just fall in line with what the internet says, it's always wrong.

    And if you don't have time to play a game, don't play a game that takes time.
     
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  15. Pembroke

    Pembroke Commander

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    Surely a balance could be found? If "no epic loot" seems too harsh then maybe give some loot for completing the easier path but reward the player choosing the difficult option with more and rarer loot. I mean, the idea here is to just give the player the option to *complete* the mission to progress the story, if he otherwise could not complete it at all. It's meant as a fall back if you really think you're stuck.

    Basically, it'd just be the classic choice between "bigger reward with bigger risk" vs. "safer route but less profit".

    Technically it would be relatively easy to add to the mission: simply close off a section of the ship, redistribute the spawns so the closed section gets most of them and the nastiest ones, move the epic loot containers around to match, and then add a switch somewhere with appropriate IDA dialogue or on LCD screens in the POI to tip the player.
     
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  16. TrashMan

    TrashMan Commander

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    The only way to "balance" it would be for the game to adjust enemy spawn and difficulty based on your armor/weapon/lvl
    that has it's own issues.

    Ultra-hard mission should be optional POI's and not story missions.
    And any story mission should give you plenty of warning and info.

    Your armor should also be durable enough to NOT become useless half way trough a single POI
     
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  17. PickleJar

    PickleJar Lieutenant

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    TrashMan has some valid points, many of those in this thread are simply giving specific pointers to solve his problems.

    But that is in itself the problem. Why should a player need to research on the forums how to play the game in a less frustrating manner? Why does the game lead a player to their death with no real input on how to avoid it? Loading screen tooltips do not count here.

    Mainly, it's because the mechanics aren't really well suited to the playstyle the missions put you on, forcing you to make up for it with strategic decisions...like forgoing the teleporter in favor of bringing your ship to the Ilmarinen, or having a stock of spare armors available before entering any dungeon, etc.

    But nothing in the game leads a person to those conclusions. Only if they enjoy the potential the game has enough to slog and trudge through these frustrating experience of repeated deaths will they ever A) search online for a solution or B) stumble upon it themselves. The small playerbase proves this. Many who buy the game can't figure it out well enough to reach enjoyment, leaving only the most dedicated players. That's all well and good but it doesn't build a strong bank account for a development studio.

    Popular games are popular and successful because they are accessible by a lower common denominator of player while simultaneously providing a path for those who are more skilled. The base / core of the game should be easier, with plenty of avenues for those who want more complexity. The things Eleon has done to "improve accessibility" are aiming at the wrong target, I'm afraid.

    Reforged Galaxy / Eden provides this accessibility.

    I'm not sure what the politics / legal issues at play are here, but one thing's for sure. Vermillion's mod thus far has literally saved this game from extinction and Eleon would do well to incorporate what he's created into the base game. It's not perfect. It has a much stronger foundation however. It's something worth building on. Vanilla served as fertile soil to allow Reforged to grow in, now build the game around the crop, not the dirt.
     
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  18. Foofaspoon

    Foofaspoon Commander

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    I can agree with some of Picklejar's comments about the need to keep the vanilla base as broad as possible and accessible. Good points. However, your solution acheives the exact opposite of this. Reforged is a hardcore change, that makes the base game more difficult and significantly more grindy than vanilla. It would narrow the player base more, bearing in mind that a significant fraction of the player base already finds the temperate vanilla starter hard judging by forum comments.

    I find it ironic you suggest this in the context of the ilmarinen, a classic Vermillion deathathon, highlight the problems with it, then to solve it hand the whole game over to Vermillion!

    For the record, it is fantastic that Vermillion has clearly given a new lease of life to the game for some players, and worked hard on it. There are really good ideas in there that certainly would be good for Eleon to be inspired by. But as a whole it should stay what it is - an optional mod for those who want a more hardcore experience.

    In terms of the ilmarinen itself, I think it is totally out of place in the quest line. I found it long, frustrating and tedious when I did it in 1.3. Looks like Escarli, I think, has improved it, but still it should be shifted to much later on, or kept as an optional 'abandoned' POI. Don't get me wrong, it's a good POI - just not there, at that point and stage.
     
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  19. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    To add to what @Foofaspoon has written just before me and to which I agree totally : lots of players are waiting for Eleon to refine and complete their game, and lots of players are not playing the mods and scenarios you mentioned. Look how many players subscribed to these mods/ scenarios, and compare to the total number of players who own the game. Numbers speak for themselves.

    The "foundation" you are talking about is just one player's vision of what some partial configuration can be for the game, and for many players who have seen titles from major producers in the industry we all have seen much better games out there and we can make an opinion by ourselves about the worth of Empyrion and its modded content while in a temporary state of development.

    I'm not really overwhelmed with joy knowing Eleon is relying on a handful of players to make the majority of the content of their game for them. I'm even less happy if they think adding more (of the same) content will compensate for lack of better animations, better sound spatialization/ quality, better player character movement and controls, etc. No amount of player made content can replace that and I didn't buy this game so some other player can cook it for me, thanks.
     
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  20. PickleJar

    PickleJar Lieutenant

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    Much is lost in the assumptions that come with text based communication.

    I think that the *direction* that Vermillion went is better than vanilla. Many of the specific choices made for the mod merit strong criticism. But it's overall the right kind of things to be focusing on. Balance is a never ending quest, and there are many things in Reforged which suffer from pendulum syndrome (what once was too easy is now too hard).

    I couldn't agree with you more: these things should be coming from within Eleon...not from without!

    I would love to see animation improvements, sound design that is worthwhile, etc! But it seems that one area where Eleon is weak is being bolstered by the creativity of the community, and for a seemingly tiny independent studio, they could benefit from a more comprehensive incorporation of these things rather than simply leaning upon them to make up for their shortcomings. A refocusing of priorities may be in order, but nobody can make those decisions but Eleon themselves.
     
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