Dying is to easy with no penalties

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by SilvRav, Aug 30, 2017.

  1. Xenophon

    Xenophon Commander

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    #21
  2. Malekh

    Malekh Commander

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    I suspect the death system will be reworked at some point. For now, being able to easily respawn near your corpse helps for testing purposes. Not so conducive to pvp, but you can't have everything.
     
    #22
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  3. Scoob

    Scoob Rear Admiral

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    I try not to die. I scout ahead, bring extra supplies in an SV or HV, I snipe from range, blow holes in walls - basically anything to avoid being shot where possible, let alone killed. I never run / fly / hover in guns blazing, unless testing something - my approaches to POI's are all thought out.

    However, that said, currently I'm grateful for the almost total lack of a death penalty. Sure, this will need to change one day but for now there are too many random glitches that result in death. I can safely say the only deaths I've experienced for a long time (SP) have been due to bugs. Be they NPC's / Turrets managing to clip and shoot through walls, getting stuck to the ground after jet pack jumping, one-shot killed by invisible turrets that haven't been rendered, suddenly being catapulted out of the cockpit of a perfectly functional SV when near a POI. These issues are far from common but they're frustrating enough when they occur that I want to get back in game quickly.

    Now, we're in EA so I accept them, however, I'd likely not have continued playing if the death penalty had been too high. I assume this is why death is an inconvenience currently, to avoid player base frustration.

    Going forward however I 100% agree there needs to be more consequences to death. I regularly watch various let's plays where players walk into gunfire / hostiles like they're not there, no proper preparation, light armour and not even checking their guns are loaded be engaging...makes me cringe lol. Then then spend the game respawning and getting frustrated that they cannot get their back pack lol. They funniest thing is when they respawn outside the POI whose turrets they didn't bother to take out beforehand... :)

    I'd be inclined to give players various options at game / server start, so a player option in SP, but a server admin option in MP.

    i) Perma Death - you die, you respawn in an escape pod with starter gear as a new character in effect, your stuff left behind is free loot until it depawns. You might get lucky. However, BA's, CV's, HV's, SV's and deployables are now another faction - if you set them to shoot other factions, beware lol. Hope your faction mates let you back in.... :D

    ii) You're a clone - you respawn in the escape pod any property you had is still yours to command / you remain in your faction. So, you have a safe place to go potentially.

    iii) Player property respawn - you spawn at a Clone / Med Bay of your choosing. You just loose your equipment.

    In each situation you loose whatever you were carrying, but there can be extra options to grant basic gear each respawn. For example, if you die and have a base, keeping it stocked with spare gear means the loss of your back pack doesn't hurt so much. However, if you just had a very basic base, no Constructor you'd be in trouble. Options need to be in place to protect players with next to nothing, so they can continue to play. I.e. if you have no starter gear (gun, ammo, drill, bio fuel, O2 Gen and Survival Constructor) either stored at your base or the materials to construct them, you get given them on respawn.

    You can see how things potentially get complicated. A harsh death penalty is all well and good, and I'd welcome it, but we need to let new players (new to game and new to server) a chance to continue playing. I mean, if we have perma-death full restart with new character (in effect, you'd keep your name of course) that's as hard as it gets. We don't want to force players who cannot realistically continue because they had no spare gear into restarting....unless we do, server admins prerogative.

    You can argue that it's easy to die early-game simply due to poor luck, though equally proper planning even at that early stage is vital. I tend to scout around, keep moving, gather small amounts of each resource I encounter, then hide out in a wreck or dig in and construct a basic BA.

    Anyway, juts some random thoughts by me.

    Scoob.
     
    #23
  4. Frankyln

    Frankyln Rear Admiral

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    What if there's a "I'm need assistance option"
    Limited uses per day/time frame

    It forces a respawn with random effect (Text Splash Screen for simplicity).
    This effect should be more negative than positive to prevent abuse.
    Possible the loss of ownership to any of your old (BA,SV,CV,HV)
    or the removal of there know locations as you are now currently lost.
    1. Found by trader and dropped of to nearest iron based planet. All you have is your back pack contents, they give you some basic survival gear.
    2. Pirates Found you unconscious and your back pack is stolen. you are ejected in a escape pod to the nearest iron based planet. Current escape pod scenario. Basic survival equipment
    3. You salvage enough to build a basic sv. It lasted just long enough to get you to the nearest iron based planet. The sv has crashed. Old sv starting scenario but with no cargo except some Basic survival equipment.
    4. Captured by aliens. Your backpack is gone. Your wake in an autopsy room. Looking around you can see your previously equipped gear. Grabbing it you make your escape. You exit onto an iron based oxygen world, you stumble across an old mining camp and salvage some Basic survival equipment.
    5. You find a cache of parts it is barely enough to build a sv too bad its out of fuel. This gives enough parts to build a Sv. No weapons, constructors, cargo containers, etc. T1 gear with 50% performance penalties. Some Basic survival equipment is also found
    6. ...
     
    #24
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2017
  5. _Vyrus_

    _Vyrus_ Lieutenant

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    The game is already potentially FFA-full-loot-pvp, it's already easy to wipe players into absolute nothingness on MP servers and I mean not even a survival constructor, drill or chainsaw. Absolutely NOTHING on those players and they have no way to do anything except run around unarmed until they die. In SP all of this doesn't matter. It's SP, you control everything. If you die, start a new game. Or don't, or use the cheat codes. It's SP, no-one can stop you from playing how you want.

    Start adding in even harsher death penalties to multiplayer though and you'll watch this game die, in fact you'll have condemned it to die.
    Gamers these days aren't hardcore, they don't stick around in games that are run with harsh penalties. Those games widdle their communities down to a handful of niche "SRS BZNS" guys until the company is bleeding money keeping the servers running and shuts it down. Already the death penalties on MP servers are capable of being adjusted by admins.

    Seriously, you're bringing up death penalties in SP as something that needs changing when it's ALREADY entirely controlled by the player because it's SINGLE PLAYER. lol
     
    #25
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  6. geostar1024

    geostar1024 Rear Admiral

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    Which is why I think a basic mining laser and constructor should be built into every suit, to enable bootstrapping (compare tree-punching in Minecraft).

    Right, but it would be nice if there was a pre-built system available for use, so that players could continue from a death with consequences without having to resort to the debug menu to make it happen.

    So let the death system be configurable by the server admin; done and done. If it ends up being a terrible system that no one wants to play with in MP, the server admins will turn it off. Basically, I don't see this as a valid reason not to develop a way to handle deaths that is consequential, lore-friendly, and toggleable.
     
    #26
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  7. piddlefoot

    piddlefoot Rear Admiral

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    Fresh Start is one way to punish your own mistakes if you feel like an MC sort of experience.
    I asked for a tickbox at start of game to define it but we got fresh start instead, which does the same thing except on servers its cant be enforced for everyone.
    And thats the problem basically.

    Pretty sure HWS could write a mod for it inside of there server manager but its something I recon should be in the main game at the menu before starting game as a tickbox, then everyone in that game plays by that rule.
     
    #27
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  8. TmikeS3

    TmikeS3 Ensign

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    If they make more death consequences, there has to be a way to go forward form there, maybe have you spawn with basic starting tools, And of course a way to turn it off to keep your cargo box form filling up with a T1 pistols, Drills chain saws and survival constructors. Anther idea is give you more ways to get Credits since we can buy things form NPCs if we have a nest egg saved up to help us start over. Being able to sell things to NPCs would really help with that
     
    #28
  9. Xenophon

    Xenophon Commander

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    Except they can carry a whole imperial navy in pocket (factory) that cant be raided.
     
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  10. Mortlath

    Mortlath Lieutenant

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    You can't carry ammo, fuel, or O2 in the factory. Maybe I'm missing something, but I feel like I have to prep all those things before I spawn in a blueprint. CVs especially need a lot of fuel.
     
    #30
  11. Xenophon

    Xenophon Commander

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    well you cant but an imperial navy and couple deathstars is more than nothing that player can have.

    with 1 fuel cell ( find it in a stray POI/wreck or carry it) you can craft drill (find resources in stray POI/wreck again), ammo, mine promethium on planet and craft more fuel if you know how. Then just mine anything etc. And deconstruct some devices to get components for tools you need.
     
    #31
  12. piddlefoot

    piddlefoot Rear Admiral

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    In this type of survival game its either like MC and perma death or its like it is now.

    Exploiters stopped all the other starts we had, and we have tried everything suggested in this thread already.

    One way it could be done is to have the game do a check on the players assets and inventories before respawn then the game can stop exploiting by players to lazy to get air or players that have just started for example, get killed and some other player steal backpack, after the game checks it knows to give that player a new backpack start inventory.
    Any system we come up with though, I bet I can find an exploitive way around it.
    Ive seen players die over and over to get pistol ammo but first dump there inventory into a POI container, so they can collect more by exploiting the start conditions.
    Pretty lame yes but whos to say, its there game let em play it how they like if it doesn't effect others.
    That type of exploiting doesn't bother me, exploiting a POI wall in PvP however so your enemy cant kill you, now that sort of exploit must get fixed, that's just an example, I haven't seen that happen.

    Anyway this is one of the reason ''fresh start'' was put in for players that like that MC style game, its hard though because human instinct tells you to click on the nearest medbay spawn point !
     
    #32
  13. rucky

    rucky Captain

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    At Game Start Dying can be really harsh, even doesn't matter where.
    The Game should not be unforgiving in easy and normal game modes.

    But later when you are set, the Game is in ALL aspects too easy.

    Mid/late game SVs never get shot down (you really have to want to), and when you have a dedicated *RAID* Cargo box with you (like I have always), there's not much worrying if you die near a POI, you just restock and get your things back! - besides you die again and again, but then you should propably rethink your strategy a bit...

    [​IMG]
     
    #33
  14. rainyday

    rainyday Rear Admiral

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    That's a really nice idea.
     
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  15. geostar1024

    geostar1024 Rear Admiral

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    The "dying to gain resources" issue is why I suggested some kind of timer-based respawn sickness, in combination with "T0" tools built into the suit (mini mining laser and microconstructor). The benefit with this sort of system is that dying doesn't get you more resources (oxygen aside, I suppose; I don't have a good solution there. Maybe simply increased oxygen consumption during the respawn sickness period, so that while you start with some new O2, you go through it pretty quickly).

    More concretely, I'd suggest the following upon respawn:
    • inventory dropped in backpack at death site (with waypoint)
    • respawn sickness (progressively goes away after 10-15 minutes):
      • max health initially capped at 10% of normal max health
      • oxygen set to 25% of max; oxygen consumption doubled
      • max food initially capped at 25% of normal max food; food set to 10% of normal max food
      • decreased weapon accuracy and somewhat longer reload times
     
    #35
  16. rucky

    rucky Captain

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    While I like your suggestion of an build-in-emergency system (small mining laser, micro constructor), this suggestion would prevent from "spawning near death" and "trying to get your backpack back" as you would drain your oxygen & food too fast, and fighting isn't a good option too, so you only can spawn back at your base, what could mean you have to build a new vessel... in time, hoping you get back there until the despawn timer kills your backpack...
     
    #36
  17. geostar1024

    geostar1024 Rear Admiral

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    Right, the point is that you likely couldn't simply charge back in; you'd need to go do some preparation/bootstrapping first. So why not just substantially increase the despawn timer? Does having a lot of backpacks really cause that much of a performance hit on a server?
     
    #37
  18. SilvRav

    SilvRav Captain

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    Maybe link the dying penalty to the player level...at lv1-10 no penalty, lv10-20 affects stay after death (poison etc) and at lv25 affects stay and you loose some inventory?
     
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  19. geostar1024

    geostar1024 Rear Admiral

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    The level system needs so much reworking that I would be opposed to tying anything to it right now. Plus, I can just imagine how gleefully MP factions would abuse this; as long as one of their members stayed below level 10, they could use that player to do all of the standard dying exploits that reforming the death system was supposed to prevent.
     
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  20. _Vyrus_

    _Vyrus_ Lieutenant

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    I still see all of this as needlessly complicating a non-issue. If you're playing SP then you simply refuse to go get your backpack, or choose fresh-start, or start a new game. I "guess" adding a checkbox at the new game screen for "perma-death" somehow simplifies this for you but it's not even really saving you a click from just choosing fresh-start or starting a new game. I don't see a problem adding it, I just don't understand the difficulty in using the options already present in SP which allows you to play however you want already...

    /shrug

    http://empyriononline.com/threads/mod-permadeath.11202/
     
    #40
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
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