Faction restrictions in A9: Too strict? Sensible?

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Thundercraft, Jan 3, 2019.

  1. Thundercraft

    Thundercraft Captain

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    Even aside from the logistics, Modular Container system, Carbon Substrate and other changes in A9, I'm noticing that gameplay is quite a bit different than before. One of the aspects which I find strange is how severe the restrictions seem to be in regard to interactions with a faction, even when the player is at Friendly relations with them.

    The fact that it is strict is not surprising. It only makes sense that, especially with Polaris, certain areas are off limits, certain devices or facilities are employees only, and theft from containers would be greatly frowned upon or punished.

    However, it seems rather harsh that opening just one container - even when nothing was taken - will turn them Unfriendly and have them start shooting at you. The least the game could do is give the player a warning, asking to confirm if you are sure.

    This is particularly worrisome considering that the default key to open a container (or interact with stuff) is "F", which just so happens to be right next to the WASD direction keys. If a player isn't looking at the keyboard - say, after taking a break or moving one's hand - they might accidentally hit "F" when they were trying to hit "D" for moving right. Such a blunder is sure to happen. I'm constantly afraid that that I might do this whenever I visit a faction, making me extra mindful of which keys I press and where I place my hand.

    Also, I am seeing some inconsistencies on these restrictions. And some of these restrictions do not make much sense.

    For example: Harvesting a plant (anything: Akua berries, Kavae beans, etc...) on the Polaris Trading Station will instantly turn Polaris hostile, having them start shooting at you. However, unlike with hovering the pointer over a faction container, there is absolutely no warning that harvesting the plant will impact relations! Also, if you visit Polaris' "Settlement" facility and pick any of the farm-able crops in the greenhouse area, nothing happens. They don't care. There's even an "Aunt Mary's" trader right there.

    That harvesting a plant would have such a huge negative impact on relations with Polaris is strange. They're a mining corporation. And look at the "RP Action Matrix Table" in this post. PlantHarvest has a very tiny -10 impact to relations with Talon, but it doesn't do anything to Polaris. Other than picking from their Trading Station, Polaris doesn't care.

    Why is it that most toilets are unavailable to players, but there are a few which are available? In one case, I saw one room with a toilet that was faction-only and then, on the other side of the same facility, there was a nearly identical room with a toilet that was available for public use. Aside from the toilets in private rooms - which would be understandable - I think most toilets should have public access.

    And, why is it that the majority of O2 Stations in Polaris facilities are faction only? Granted, there are public-access O2 Stations on the Polaris Trading Station. And, rarely, I'll find a public-access O2 in a different Polaris facility. But that seems to be the exception. Most are faction only. But... Oxygen? Even visitors and customers need to breath! Geez! It's not like we can take that oxygen and sell it. All an O2 Station can do is fill our suit's reserve.

    Some other inconsistencies: Most Fridges are faction-only, opening them being treated the same as opening a Container. However, there are a very few which are public access. I even found Cheese in one of them and took it, but there was no consequence. Though very rare, there are also a few (deco or furniture) containers which are public access. I found a weapon upgrade kit in one and took it, but there was no consequence.

    Armor Lockers and Repair Stations are still public access, thank goodness! However, while the Advanced Constructor and the Furnace in Polaris facilities are technically public access, in practice it is quite impossible to use them. Due to the changes in logistics, a Large or Advanced Constructor or a Furnace needs to be connected to a Container before they can be used. However, because none of the containers (that would qualify as an Input or Output) are public access, there is no using them.

    Perhaps it was intentional to make the Polaris Advanced Constructor and Furnace unavailable to the player. Though, if that's the case: Instead of being able to access the device's use menu, I wish that was blocked. (Accessing it feels like the game is teasing us and I'd imagine this would confuse new players.) Alternatively, if this was unintentional, perhaps such facilities could have 1 nearby Container that's public access?
     
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    Last edited: Jan 3, 2019
  2. Hummel-o-War

    Hummel-o-War Administrator
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    Before opening a container there is a message informing you what will happen.
    The 1st open will set you to NEUTRAL (not unfriendly)
    Picking plants should never lead to instant-change of RP standing (maybe you were already close to the next lower level?)
    >> If one of the aformentioned does not work like explained, please report as a bug.

    @Trading Stations access > not all devices are set to "public access".
    And: If you take things out of a container that was set to public access, there is no instant-change of RP standing
     
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  3. Thundercraft

    Thundercraft Captain

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    Fair enough. Though, as I said: Since the default key to open a container is "F", since "F" is right next to "D" on the keyboard, and since most everyone uses the default WASD keys to move around, it is super easy to press "F" by mistake and open a faction container by mistake.

    I just think players would appreciate getting a pop-up window saying something like, "This will harm relations with [faction name]... Are you sure that you want to open this container? [Y/N]"... at least if the player is currently on Friendly terms or better and at least for the first time the player does this. I really feel that there should be a prompt to confirm in order to prevent accidentally opening a faction container by mistake. And I can't believe that I'm the only player who feels this way.

    Maybe I'm slightly confused, then. Even so, a drop to Neutral is still a huge drop if the player was already well into Friendly or especially Honored.

    No, I was definitely well into Friendly, already a significant way towards Honored.

    Ah! So this was unintended. I'll report this as a bug, then.

    I mentioned the public container thing in order to report to other players the differences I found in Alpha 9 from previous versions and to make some comparisons with other faction containers and devices. That, and to question whether leaving a few rare containers as public was intentional or not. Am I to take it, then, that a few containers were left public-access by design (i.e., not by being overlooked)?
     
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  4. stanley bourdon

    stanley bourdon Commander

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    this happened to me last night at a trade station. I picked 1 berry bush(the tooltip just gave the genetic use the F key) and then I was shot to death by a civilian if I remember correctly. I was 6000/6000 honored at the time.
     
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  5. Hummel-o-War

    Hummel-o-War Administrator
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    Does this always only happen for "planted" plants in POIs ore even only in Trading Stations?
    I checked this and could not reproduce (no instant-change happened). Maybe i am missing an info..
     
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  6. Germanicus

    Germanicus Rear Admiral

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    Would not "pick a plant" inside a POI trigger a similar reaction as if you open a crate? I would have thought so. F-Menu showing or not it does not belong to the Player so its Faction-related in my Opinion, of course!
     
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  7. stanley bourdon

    stanley bourdon Commander

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    To find out I will need to get back to honored and then go back to the asteroid field trade station could take a bit. No, save close to the time of the incident.
     
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  8. stanley bourdon

    stanley bourdon Commander

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    I got back to honored 6000/6000 I went to a Polaris trading station in one of the asteroid fields. I picked berries. The tooltip just said press F to pick berries, there was nothing about the loss of standing with the faction or any other penalty and there is normally no penalty for messing with plants in Polaris territory. I was then instantly shot and killed by a citizen. My standing with Polaris went to unfriendly instantly. I also got minus 10 points with the Tallon. I can come up with no reason why I would lose 10 points with the Tallon.

    Opening a container is -500 points and to neutral.

    I have never had a penalty with Polaris for harvesting trees or picking plants in their territory.

    possibility 1 you are not supposed to pick plants in the Polaris structures. In that case, the tooltip should be fixed and a note about that added to the tooltip on the relations page.

    possibility 2 you are allowed to pick plants and there is a bug that causes reputation loss even though it should not.

    and finally, there should be no effect on the reputation status with the Tallon.

    first A9-3a_2019-01-11_16-25-57.png first A9-3a-190111-1644_2019-01-11_16-57-13.png first A9-3a-190111-1644_2019-01-11_17-07-32.png first A9-3a-190111-1644_2019-01-11_17-07-59.png first A9-3a-190111-1644_2019-01-11_17-08-03.png first A9-3a-190111-1644_2019-01-11_17-08-52.png
     
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  9. Thundercraft

    Thundercraft Captain

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    Well, I have to hand it to the devs for responding so swiftly. Your post was dated yesterday. And, today (after the new update was pushed), I went back to see if I could replicate this issue myself. This is what I saw:

    [​IMG]
    "Warning: It will change your reputation to Unfriendly with faction Polaris!"

    So, at least we now get a courtesy warning that harvesting stuff on a Polaris Trading Station will have severe consequences. That's nice. But, questions remain: Is this just a quick stopgap measure until the devs make some other adjustments? Is this fair? Should picking a handful of berries really have deadly consequences? (Seriously: Don't mess with station security or even station civilians! They will very quickly kill you!)

    Exactly. But picking berries on a Trading Station (as opposed to anywhere else in the game) not only has an instant shift to Unfriendly, but they open fire on you?

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Neither can I.

    Granted, according to Eleon's own "RP Action Matrix" table, harvesting plants is supposed to have a -10 point penalty with Talon., but only when harvesting said plants in Talon territory and only if the player's Reputation was less than Friendly at the time. But this was Polaris territory, not Talon. And the reputation of both yourself and myself at the time was Honored with both Talon and Polaris.

    Neither have I.

    If this is not an example of a bug (i.e.; unintended game behavior), then this is quite the mystery, especially since the "RP Action Matrix" table and everything else we know about the game suggests that this should not happen.
     
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  10. Thundercraft

    Thundercraft Captain

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    To revisit an issue I brought up here:
    I was just watching a Let's Play by Spanj and I noticed that, near the end (32 minutes, 41 seconds in), he accidentally does this.



    "Oh s**t... NOOOOO!", he exclaims, as he realized that he done goofed. He then looked at his reputation menu and laments that his reputation with Polaris was now at 1/6000, only 1 point above Unfriendly. "Ohhhh...! OHH...hohohohoho!! I tell you what: That was a complete accident. Had they turned Unfriendly this guy would have shot me in the face. These guys would have shot me in the face."

    I feel for Spanj. This was immediately after finishing a mission for Polaris and after he had done a bunch of missions and work to get his reputation with them up to a decent level after having accidentally making them enemies earlier. So part of that effort was wasted.

    As I said: Because there's such a severe penalty for merely opening a container belonging to a faction, there should be a popup notification asking for confirmation on whether the player really wants to do this before the penalty is applied. Otherwise, more players are going to be frustrated by this issue. Accidentally pressing the wrong key, momentarily forgetting about the penalty or somehow missing the warning mouse tooltip is easy enough to do that it can and does happen. And, let's face it: A mouse hover tooltip is relatively easy to ignore or even overlook.
     
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  11. Soyaro

    Soyaro Lieutenant

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    These accidents happen rather often I guess.
    I accidentally hit f while wanted to press d in a Polaris Station once. That was right after checking out the new warning about reputation changes when opening an inventory (it happened right after that update came out and I wanted to check the message, that's why I had that container in front of me). There wasn't even content that whould have been worth the Zirax genocide on that planet.
    My girlfriend accidentally opened an inventory while harvesting a Talon field a few weeks ago. That was bad luck, she didn't see a bag behind the plant. I raided two Zirax bases to fix that.
    Last week she was going to harvest the same field and after the first plant she got killed by a Talon. We had to completely bulldoze that village to get her stuff back. Luckily I was going to clean a moon anyways so the damage by that was fixed the next day, too.

    Now thinking of it... In our current savegame all planets and moons we got cleared from Zirax only got cleared to fix such an accidents consequences...
     
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