Harmonizing Naturally Into A Logically Solid Foundation of Specialization

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Israel, Nov 29, 2019 at 6:51 AM.

  1. Israel

    Israel Lieutenant

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    Update: Weight+block limits on different core types would create specialization naturally. Because if you want to build large ships you will have to chose whether you want to be a half as good multi purpose ship or a much better specialized ship. A specialized ship will most likely beat a half specialized ship because of better weapons and armor and quicker speed depend on the size type of the ship light, medium, or heavy. Lighter ships are faster then medium ships and so on. So this will really put another level of in depth and immersive building and specialization to the game.

    Update: Depending on the ship type cv, sv, hv. Lets use cv first. If you add massive amounts of armor which also means adding heaver thrusters because smaller cv thrusters won't be strong enough to carry such massively armored and fully weaponized which adds even more weight and energy consumption to your ship. Means that with a specialized light with half weapons & armor of yours i can take you out because i can not only catch you when your running but leave you behind when you come after me. This also means that my weapons can go in and out of range of yours faster then your weapons can reach me when your turrets start shooting because i have faster speed plus quicker reaction time with thrusters because i'm lighter then your much slower heavy ship.

    Your slower but more armored cv against a sv is worse when it comes to speed because light sv's are way way faster then the slowest heavy cv. So this gives you more freedom and variety to chose which play-style and specialization you want to play in. But each of these have consequences with their own and naturally given unique strengths and weaknesses.

    When reading this think of the title “Harmonizing Naturally Into A Logically Solid Foundation of Specialization”. Before this cpu update we had size class, and even though it was an indicator of lag size it still helped to create some specialization. But i think most of us can agree that it wasn’t enough and at the scale that it could be done, achieved, and improved upon. So in saying that, here are some ideas based on the principles of Harmonizing Naturally Into A Logically Solid Foundation of Specialization.

    Your Class Size should be measured by the number of blocks you use to build with, and sense this is also decent indicator of what type of ship your building and its mass this gives it a solid foundation based on logic and naturally occurring specialization based on gravity mass and weight. Part of this is already implemented in Empyrion but the CPU update which is not a solid foundation based on a standard random numbers being thrown around and configured.

    Also, the old class size calculator name should be changed to what it logically should be called which is “Lag Size” and not Class Size. This so called “class size” just further propagates the confusion and disarray this game is under instead of promoting clarity and understanding which this game desperately needs. .

    Each of the four core levels for all structures could be called Light, Medium Light, Medium, and Heavy.

    The block amounts per core level are well balanced in this way for small vessels: level 1 core 1000 blocks, level 2 core 2000 blocks, level 3 core 3000 blocks, level 4 core 4000 blocks.

    Hover Vessels are supposed to be more tanky so its well balanced in this way. level 1 core 1700 blocks, level 2 core 3400 blocks, level 3 core 5100 blocks, level 4 core 6800 blocks.

    Cv’s are supposed to be naturally bigger: level 1 core 5000 blocks, level 2 core 10000 blocks, level 3 core 15000 blocks, level 4 core 20000 blocks.

    Bases could be about the same as cv’s sense their also supposed to naturally be bigger and serve as a base or home. level 1 core 5000 blocks, level 2 core 10000 blocks, level 3 core 15000 blocks, level 4 ore 20000 blocks.

    So in short; here are the pro’s and cons of smaller vs bigger ships. This logically should apply to all vessels; cv’s hv’s, sv’s. Bases are different accept on the armor part so more blocks for bases equals more armor they can use to protect themselves. And the bigger the base the more the shield should consul fuel and power sense the shields field needs to cover a bigger mass which logically takes more fuel and power to create.

    Smaller Ships:

    Pro’s:

    Their faster so harder to catch up to.

    Their smaller so harder to aim and shoot at.

    They use less resources to build compered to bigger ships.

    They use less fuel because they are smaller compered to bigger ships.

    Con’s:

    Can carry less Cargo.

    They have less armor which makes them easier to destroy.


    Bigger Ships:

    Pro’s:

    Can Carry more Cargo.

    They have more armor which makes them harder to destroy.

    Con’s:

    They are bigger in mass which makes them a bigger target to aim and shoot at.

    They are slower which means they can be caught up too by a smaller and faster ship.

    They use more resources to build compered to smaller ships.

    They use more fuel because they are bigger compered to smaller ships.

    The bigger the ship the stronger the shields should be and the more fuel and power it shield consume because a bigger ship can hold more fuel in fuel tanks and generate more power with its larger generators.

    Further, bigger ships are naturally bigger in mass which means easier to aim and shoot at and are slower which means they are easier to catch and shoot at which makes them more reliant on their extra hull armor and shields in general compered to smaller ships. You can naturally see this in other games where the knight class has more armor and can tank more but can’t chase down archer because archers are too fast.

    So as you can see each of these roles of specialization have their own naturally occurring and unique, strengths and weakness which makes them a solid foundation.

    Block limits limit size/mass of a ship which helps encourage specialization because smaller ships compered to bigger ships; have their own unique natural roles given to them by nature; which in its very basic form is "smaller ships" have less armor so are weaker in defense, "bigger ships" have more armor so are stronger in defense, theres so much more i can say in the deference of strengths and weaknesses between these two but you get the idea.

    CPU = Central Processing Unit only measures how effective and to what degree of capacity; command A gets to point B. If command A can't get to point B because one of the tier 4 extenders is shot off the whole ship doesn't move which is flawed by its own nature. So CPU is artificial in nature has no foundation, and doesn't have a logical and solid foundation like mass/weight as its roots. CPU, simply put is a conjured values up system made out of thin-air. Its like throwing numbers up at the sky and hoping that it can stand on its own two feet.

    So not only have Block limits proven to work like in one of the most popular servers in all Empyrion which is HWS, and block limits are more flexible and can be changed and modified much easier for server owners then changing every single cpu block that exists on Empyrion. I have multiple great looking pvp 3k block sv's that or not limiting me from pvping and building nice looking ships. I have tons more pvp sv ships that are not my own but are so beautiful and can kick ass in hardcore pvp battles.

    So here is the other problem with CPU in its core “it was done in the opposite way” because when it comes to upgrading CPU tiers you don’t need these kinds of extensions for a tiny CPU chip thats supposed to fit inside your computer. What you need is an upgrade or a new computer. I mean look at the ridicules size of these extensions; their not supposed to be the size of a computer let alone twice its size.

    Remember that the CPU itself is a core component of what makes a computer, but it isn’t the computer itself — it’s just the brains of the operation. So the core is the computer in Empyrion and obviously the little CPU chip "the brains should logically be much much smaller then the body. https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/what-is-a-cpu/

    So the Developers did it backwards “they made the brains bigger then the whole body” which logically makes no sense. Its like making the leafs of a tree much heaver and bigger then the roots of the tree, and something built in such a backward way would destroy itself from such a backward and weak foundation.

    Sense the core is the computer all you need to do is upgrade the computer itself and not add a more useless and unnecessary clutter of blocks because the tiny cpu chip is already inside. So just upgrade to a stronger and more advanced computer which naturally has a more powerful cpu.

    So here is the other problem with CPU in its core “it was done in the opposite way” because when it comes to upgrading CPU tiers you don’t need these kinds of extensions for a tiny CPU chip thats supposed to fit inside your computer. What you need but is an upgraded or new computer. I mean look at the ridicules size of these extensions; their not supposed to be the size of a computer let alone twice its size.

    Remember that the CPU itself is a core component of what makes a computer, but it isn’t the computer itself — it’s just the brains of the operation. So the core is the computer in Empyrion and obviously the little CPU chip "the brains should logically be much much smaller then the body. https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/what-is-a-cpu/

    So the Developers did it backwards “they made the brains bigger then the whole body” which logically makes no sense. Its like making the leafs of a tree much heaver and bigger then the roots of the tree, and something built in such a backward way would destroy itself from such a backward and weak foundation.

    Sense the core is the computer all you need to do is upgrade the computer itself and not add a more useless and unnecessary clutter of blocks because the tiny cpu chip is already inside. So just upgrade to a stronger and more advanced computer which naturally has a more powerful cpu.

    Thats the size of a cpu chip guys and thats the brains of a computer and what goes inside.
    The computer used by the capital Ship sized Space Shuttle from NASA is about less then a quarter of the size of a Capital Vessel Empyrion block and weighs about 64 pounds which is less then three times my own weight which means i could carry this thing with my bare hands. Also, that computer is more accurately about the same size of a Small Vessel's Empyrion Core.

    The screen you posted was from an IBM Blue Gene computer which was designed for an entirely different propose like processing massive amounts of date for research and storing massive amounts of data. The IBM computer they designed for Aircraft is much much smaller and much different; its called the IBM System/4 Pi.

    The Computer used by the Capital Ship sized Space Shuttle from NASA is about less then a quarter of the size of a Capital Vessel Empyrion block and weighs about 64 pounds which is less then three times my own weight which means i could carry this thing with my bare hands. Also, that computer is more accurately about the same size of a Small Vessel's Empyrion Core.

    What i think should logically matter is the balance between realism and immersion. So far it hasn't been reached nowhere near its potential. And the CPU with its backward implementation just further brakes the immersion in this game. As i have written above to large extent.

    I have probably already written something similar to this above but these are my thoughts.

    I see block limits as a way better promoter of specialization then fake cpu limits with tiers. Block amount is a better indicator of how big in mass a structure is. But also lets face the elephant in the room and call lag size for what it is lag size. Its not a measurement of class size in mass or of class type in specification but of lag size. The more i think of cpu the more it brakes immersion in the game for me. I think what will 100% work in knowing exactly how big your ship is is mass and volume which already exists in the game. CPU just feels artificial and fake to me.

    So the weight will be the determining factor if your ship is light, medium or heavy. Now what weight = what type is to be determined. Measuring by weight means that no thrusters can be over used instead of smaller ones because of the weight limitation for each ship type.

    If you want to use big thrusters you can but naturally because of weight determining class size you can't spam heavy thrusters or you may end up with a light class size ship that can only carry as its maximize weight 10 heavy thrusters and thats it and not including other blocks. So if you want to use more heavy thrusters you'll have to naturally upgrade to a bigger ship size with your cores. And way of doing it also helps to immerse players even more into ship building.

    The other thing that would be fun and cool and a better logistical way of spawning blueprints is if you needed a specific structure called a ship yard which lets you create ships. Depending on the upgrade level of this ship yard it will let you make different ship types of different level which can further immerse the players on specialized ship building in a fun way. I can already imaged the blue field surrounding a not yet spawned blueprint right beside this shipyard while i wait for its construction to finish. :)

    So you would have to build a base first before you can make the jump to flight and before you can go out and look at the stars and explore the universe which is but a natural order way of doing it.

    I think this way will also bring a very interesting and very fun way of doing pvp. So if in pvp before you could just out spawn your opponent with ships and bases now you need to first create a mini shipyard to spawn your smaller fighters and smaller hv's to to get into combat and perhaps conquer that world, system, and galaxy's.. :D

    And maybe player sized al-drones imitating the building of the ship. Maybe in the future. :D

    This screen below can give you an immersive idea on how the mechanics of having a base be your shipyard to build ships. Bases of-course will have to be built by hand. But you may not need a big base to build a little fighter to fly around and explore the planet.

    [​IMG]

    IBM System/4 Pi info here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_System/4_Pi#AP-101


    [​IMG]


    IBM Blue Gene info here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Blue_Gene

    [​IMG]

    I originally posted these suggestions on HWS Forums here: https://forum.empyrion-homeworld.ne...ally-solid-foundation-of-specialization/21827
     
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    Last edited: Dec 3, 2019 at 4:25 AM
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  2. thedevilfrog

    thedevilfrog Ensign

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    already better thought out than CPU !
     
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  3. Chief_Rockie

    Chief_Rockie Commander

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    All great ideas! Anything better then the current set up!
     
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  4. SacredGlade

    SacredGlade Captain

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    Logical ideas, well articulated. So many posts along this general vein on the forum now. CPU being tied to Devices not blocks etc.

    I'm starting the feel exhausted by it all, I think the general message must have been picked up by the Dev team. I'm sure the community management have collated the wave of feedback.

    Think now, personally, I am looking to see the next announcements from Eleon, on the game development on their game.

    I do hope the steam sale has still gone well, as the company needs the revenue to fund ongoing development. (Just for clarity, this hope is genuine not sarcasm).
     
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  5. Average

    Average Commander

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    Nice post Israel but I'd like to disagree with you on a number of points. First, if I have it correctly you make the following points:
    1) You suggest "Class size" should be called "Lag size"
    2) You state CPU modules are physically unrealistic and that this is bad
    2) You want CPU to be related to block number. I feel uncertain about the exact way you want this to happen, but I think you mean CPU/core level should limit to amount of blocks you should get to build with to the amounts you specifiy.

    My thoughts on the topics you raise:
    1) Totally agree. Well put.

    2) I'd suggest what matters is not realism but immersion. Empyrion is already wildly unrealistic. Space war ships would never have pilots (they'd probably be drones), they'd fly at hundreds or thousands of times the speed, one hit from a weapon would probably destroy an entire ship (they'd fly much faster than even the ships). But immersion is broken when we experience stuff that *feels* intuitively unrealistic or inconsistent. Carrying a whole spaceship around in my "factory" and instantly creating it anywhere greatly breaks immersion, but having to briefly look at an oversized CPU during the design phase of each ship is fairly minor and could probably be imagined away (in Empyrion universe they have crappy computer tech). You're right they're a bit silly, but that's not something you have to think about often and they're designed to eventually fix (I hope!) things that are WAY more immersion breaking, like why every fighting ship in the 'verse is flying around with the exact same number of turrets regardless of size and number of generators etc.

    3) I agree that tying speed to block count is a good idea - it breaks immersion when a giant ship and a tiny one are evenly matched in a chase for example. But, and apologies if I misunderstand you, I'm confused how you mean for core level to translate into any further specialization other than "small ship" & "big ship". All big ships would presumably still have a limit on the number of each turret type, and therefore would all be flying around with the exact same amount (the maximum). The same would go for any other feature - thrusters, shield (as you point out, different size same shield isn't immersive), cargo capacity, mining capability, production.

    Just limiting the block numbers wouldn't work cleanly, because a turret is potentially much more valuable than a bunch of steel blocks - you'd never really give up any of your turrets for a few of them. Everybody would still have the max turrets allowed.

    CPU has the possibility (if Eleon intends it this way, and fully commit) of creating great diversity in ship design because it acts as a currency you can assign to a particular role or strategy you want your particular ship to have. To achieve this you remove most other limits and just keep CPU. So you could spend 90% of your CPU getting 20 artillery turrets, but then you get a slow clumsy ship, and a small fast ship could dodge your artillery and beat you. Or, you could spend half on 10 artillery and half on 20 miniguns, and now you beat the small ship but the first ship with 20 artillery beats you. For miner, you can build a miner that is really fast at escaping by spending more CPU on thrusters, or you could build one with lots of cargo space but is vulnerable, or one that is armed and can defend itself a bit.

    The idea is no ship is good at everything, and to be better at something you have to get worse at something else. By making this a fluid 'currency' rather than just hard coding it as ship types, you allow lots of weird and wonderful yet balanced designs that fill hundreds of niche roles - for example an artillery miner that fires off one big volley when attacked before it warps out? No problem! A small agile anti-infantry gunship with dozens of sentry turrets? No problem! As your title suggests, a natural foundation for specialization, because Eleon doesn't specify the types of ships (core sizes or sub-types), you do!

    I don't know if this is Eleon's idea with CPU, as CPU is currently mixed with hard coded device limits which need to go, and the device CPU values are still all wrong to achieve this. But I hope this is where they intend to move, because it would be awesome!
     
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    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019 at 12:55 PM
  6. Israel

    Israel Lieutenant

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    What i think should logically matter is the balance between realism and immersion. So far it hasn't been reached nowhere near its potential. And the CPU with its backward implementation just further brakes the immersion in this game. As i have written above to large extent.

    I have probably already written something similar to this above but these are my thoughts.

    I see block limits as a way better promoter of specialization then fake cpu limits with tiers. Block amount is a better indicator of how big in mass a structure is. But also lets face the elephant in the room and call lag size for what it is lag size. Its not a measurement of class size in mass or of class type in specification but of lag size. The more i think of cpu the more it brakes immersion in the game for me. I think what will 100% work in knowing exactly how big your ship is is mass and volume which already exists in the game. CPU just feels artificial and fake to me.

    So the weight will be the determining factor if your ship is light, medium or heavy. Now what weight = what type is to be determined. Measuring by weight means that no thrusters can be over used instead of smaller ones because of the weight limitation for each ship type.

    If you want to use big thrusters you can but naturally because of weight determining class size you can't spam heavy thrusters or you may end up with a light class size ship that can only carry as its maximize weight 10 heavy thrusters and thats it and not including other blocks. So if you want to use more heavy thrusters you'll have to naturally upgrade to a bigger ship size with your cores. And way of doing it also helps to immerse players even more into ship building.

    The other thing that would be fun and cool and a better logistical way of spawning blueprints is if you needed a specific structure called a ship yard which lets you create ships. Depending on the upgrade level of this ship yard it will let you make different ship types of different level which can further immerse the players on specialized ship building in a fun way. I can already imaged the blue field surrounding a not yet spawned blueprint right beside this shipyard while i wait for its construction to finish. :)

    So you would have to build a base first before you can make the jump to flight and before you can go out and look at the stars and explore the universe which is but a natural order way of doing it.

    I think this way will also bring a very interesting and very fun way of doing pvp. So if in pvp before you could just out spawn your opponent with ships and bases now you need to first create a mini shipyard to spawn your smaller fighters and smaller hv's to to get into combat and perhaps conquer that world, system, and galaxy's.. :D

    And maybe player sized al-drones imitating the building of the ship. Maybe in the future. :D

    This screen below can give you an immersive idea on how the mechanics of having a base be your shipyard to build ships. Bases of-course will have to be built by hand. But you may not need a big base to build a little fighter to fly around and explore the planet.

    [​IMG]
     
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    Last edited: Dec 3, 2019 at 1:19 AM
  7. Average

    Average Commander

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    Thanks for the reply. I think your shipyard idea is a good one and I heartily agree!

    On the block limit idea, wouldn't anyone that wants to fight still build the biggest ship class available and then just stack the maximum guns on it? So everyone is still flying ships with identical weaponry around? Perhaps some would opt for smaller ships, but this is very different from the great variety of ship roles (destroyer, miner, industrial, battleship, corvette, carrier etc etc) or weapons (missiles vs artillery etc) that you get in either sci-fi or real world navies? Don't you think we need something to make them choose between those roles?
     
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  8. Israel

    Israel Lieutenant

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    Thank you! And i'm glade you liked it. :)

    No because as i mentioned above i think; block limits would be in combination with weight limits. And sense in game, logically, bigger thrusters weigh more. So your not going to be able to spam big thrusters around and if you try to do that you will get rekt easy. Yes you could fly a ship with 20 large thrusters but you will have to sacrifice your other weight like armor which would logically make no sense and you would probably get even rekt by little al-drone. :D

    And thats exactly what these "weight limits + block limits on different core types" would do. If you want to build large ships you will have to chose whether you want to be a half as good multi purpose ship or a much better specialized ship. A specialized ship will most likely beat a half specialized ship because of better weapons and armor and quicker speed depend on the size type of the ship light, medium, or heavy. Lighter ships are faster then medium ships and so on. So this will really put another level of in depth and immersive building and specialization to the game.
     
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    Last edited: Dec 3, 2019 at 2:08 AM
  9. Average

    Average Commander

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    Ok I'm still a bit unsure what you mean on this bit, but I think I see what you're trying to balance. But still, that's thrusters. What about turrets? How do you prevent everyone flying around with the same turrets, but still keep things balanced? For example, I might not care if my ship is slow, because I can shoot as good as anything that comes need me.
     
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  10. Israel

    Israel Lieutenant

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    I think i already answered that here:

    For example, what you said that

    Depending on the ship type cv, sv, hv. Lets use cv first. If you add massive amounts of armor which also means adding heaver thrusters because smaller cv thrusters won't be strong enough to carry such massively armored and fully weaponized which adds even more weight and energy consumption to your ship. Means that with a specialized light with half weapons & armor of yours i can take you out because i can not only catch you when your running but leave you behind when you come after me. This also means that my weapons can go in and out of range of yours faster then your weapons can reach me when your turrets start shooting because i have faster speed plus quicker reaction time with thrusters because i'm lighter then your much slower heavy ship.

    Your slower but more armored cv against a sv is worse when it comes to speed because light sv's are way way faster then the slowest heavy cv. So this gives you more freedom and variety to chose which play-style and specialization you want to play in. But each of these have consequences with their own and naturally given unique strengths and weaknesses.
     
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    Last edited: Dec 3, 2019 at 4:16 AM
  11. geostar1024

    geostar1024 Rear Admiral

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    The dimensions and mass of a ship don't actually tell you much about its capabilities (not even its maneuverability, since thruster configuration isn't included). A block count-based mechanic also immediately penalizes all decorative elements (similar to the effect of charging CPU for inert blocks). So, I'd argue that it's a poor starting point for any kind of mechanic that purports to encourage specialization.
     
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  12. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    Now I would like to see you compare 2 CVs instead of a SV-CV scenario. For example, lets take for granted that there is an optimal combination of engine power, armor and weaponry. How would a deviation from this optimal build generate advantages for PvP ?
     
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  13. geostar1024

    geostar1024 Rear Admiral

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    Well, isn't an optimal combination the thing specialization is supposed to avoid? You'd really want something more like the classic defense-offense-acceleration triangle, where the default balanced configuration is ok at everything but reducing the effectiveness in one area allows improvement of capabilities in another.

    We have the major combat-oriented subsystems:
    • Thrusters/RCS
    • Weapons
    • Armor (unpowered subsystem)
    • Shields
    • Sensors (eventually, hopefully)
    We also have "utility" subystems:
    • Cargo
    • Warp drive
    • Mining
    • Research (eventually, hopefully)
    • Constructors
    We could arrange these into categories (with some duplication):
    • Offense: Weapons, Sensors
    • Defense: Armor, Shields, Sensors
    • Maneuverability: Thrusters/RCS, Warp drive
    • Utility: Cargo, Warp drive, Research
    • Production: Mining, Constructors
    These categories could be looked at as a couple of nested triangles: Offense-Defense-Manuevability (all in Combat), and Combat-Utility-Production. Obviously, this doesn't describe the mechanics that would create this system, but it does, I think, describe the overall result of specialization that I think a lot of us would like to see in one form or another.
     
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  14. Israel

    Israel Lieutenant

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    I mean its really common sense gravity 101 bud. Even the ancients new about weight plus block limits meaning the limits of mass you could use, the mass size, and the design of its mass would effect a flying projectile. Throwing a spear for example. Not all were created equal. Lighter spears could travel farther through the air to reach its target. Heaver spears could only travel shorter distances through the air to reach its target. Thrust would be determined by the strength of the man wielding these weapons. This would be considered perhaps a small vessel light level in a matter of speaking.

    The only way you could through a heavy spear farther was by using a heaver and slower equipment like scorpion. So that heaver equipment would be considered a cv in a matter of speaking. And here you can see again the natural specialization taking place. This is do to weight plus block limits in combination with Empyrions calculation of design. I'm not sure if the design calculation is fully implemented yet though.
     
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    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019 at 2:34 AM
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  15. geostar1024

    geostar1024 Rear Admiral

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    For unpowered projectiles, sure. For powered ships, no. If I tell you that there is a 5x5x5 100 ton ship and a 10x10x10 10 kton ship, you can't tell me which ship has higher acceleration unless I also tell you the thruster configuration for each ship.
     
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  16. Israel

    Israel Lieutenant

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    Your talking about something different. I'm talking about speed of ship, your talking about how fast it can accelerate. Those are two different things. In Empyrion we already now that sv max speed is faster then cv max speed. So there is no argument there.

    Now in terms of acceleration, thats determined by the builder. So if the cv builder wants optimal acceleration he will have to sacrifice or balance out as best he can the following: making bigger gaps inside his ship to place these bigger thrusters that give quicker acceleration that are needed for such a big cv, weapons, armor, cargo space, fuel tanks, generators, armor blocks etc etc... which makes your ship weaker because your getting half and half or less of the capabilities of a specialized ship would give you. And even then you will only be able to accelerate faster and not go at a faster speed then a sv. Cv's max speed is 150 ms, Sv's maxx speed is 200 ms.
     
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    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019 at 2:32 AM
  17. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    Don't worry about the rest of your post : I'm still pondering about it. :D

    About the sentence I quote : "specialization" accomplishes nothing, the players do the building. And the " PvP " mention is central to my post you quoted, because an "optimal build " for PvP is obviously the one that will yield the best results in combat, which will most probably be replicated with little variation by many other players. So "specialization" means nothing here apart trying to describe intents, but given the nature of Player-vs-Player the meta is simply kill or get killed, and best practices eventually become the norm.

    I asked for a CV vs CV comparison, where deviation from the optimal build for that case would yield an advantage. I don't know the answer so that's why I ask, but I feel whatever change is made to try to force PvP players into any kind of mold will always end up in relative uniformity of designs.
     
    #17
  18. Israel

    Israel Lieutenant

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    I think i have already answered the concept but maybe i can be more in depth on it. On a CV vs CV Scenario.

    Combat Capital Vessel's Pros and Cons from a Light CV vs a Heavy CV Scenario in pvp.

    Light CV Pros:

    Being small in size and light in weight means: they can out maneuver a heavy cv by catching up to them as they wish or running way from them as they wish. If the speed difference is high enough the light cv may be able to dodge turret fire by staying just out of range of the slower cv because with its higher speed it can stay out of range faster and shot its turrets in range of the enemy as its pleases.


    Light CV Cons:

    1) Being small in size and light in weight means: their weaker in armor not only because they can't handle carrying that much weight but because of their size they don't require that much armor to cover it their hull.

    1) Being small in size and light and in weight means: they can't carry as many turrets and manual weapons not only because they can't carry that much in weight but because the size of its hull-area doesn't allow it to place so many turrets and manual weapons on at the same time.

    2) Being small in size and light in weight means: they don't need as much fuel not only because they can't carry and store that much fuel because their size, but because they can't carry that much weight in fuel or fuel tanks. This can either be a con or a pro depending on your level of supply's stockpiled and style of gameplay. They also require less fuel because they don't use up as much as a heavy ship.

    3) Being small in size and light in weight means: they don't require as much resources to build then a heavy ship and also don't require a higher level of computer core to build which also requires a higher level of technology.

    The Heavy CV Pros and Cons are virtually the opposite of Light CV Pros and Cons so hopefully you get the idea by now.
     
    #18
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019 at 6:29 AM
  19. Kieve

    Kieve Rear Admiral

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    The idea of "fixed block limits" in this concept already makes me want to flip a rude gesture to the entire thing. Having a hard cap on "blocks" immediately renders it no better than CPU, when discussing creative flexibility - you're actively penalizing anyone who puts more than the barest effort into their hull design. Keep in mind, "blocks costing CPU" is a major bone of contention among the majority of folks who are currently objecting to the current implementation of CPU, and the limits you propose are vastly more restrictive than that.

    I don't really have the time or inclination to try and rip this suggestion apart line by line, but since you felt compelled to turn your sig into a whole damn novel on the subject... Look, I don't know if your workshop roster is an indication of your building ability or not, but the designs I do see there suggest you're not one of the folks who care too much what a ship looks like, so long as it functions well. That's perfectly fine, not here to tell you how to play, but I will say that there's a whole lot of builders out there, myself included, who like to put some aesthetic value into our creations and suggesting even more restrictions / further penalizing any attempt to make something look halfway decent is a surefire way to get some negative reactions. I get what you're going for with this idea, but you're coming at it from completely the wrong direction.
     
    #19
  20. Israel

    Israel Lieutenant

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    I suggested block limits because it has been proven to work on Empyrion's most populated and popular server which is HWS. It worked both to make beautifully amazing looking pvp ships and the lower in standard built pve ships. So really the difference in block limits is that everything beautiful is just smaller in size.

    But that was before i looked into weights on a more deep level as a natural system to specialize ships. I think we don't even need block limits at this point. Weight is enough and its natural. We are all bound by weight which is a good indicator of how big something is in size.

    So theres no need to
    anymore..! Be gone block limits..! :D
     
    #20
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019 at 12:31 AM
    Kieve and Kassonnade like this.

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