Harmonizing Naturally Into A Logically Solid Foundation of Specialization

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Israel, Nov 29, 2019.

  1. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    I will keep in mind what @Kieve answered you and your subsequent removal of "block limits" in my following "thoughts". ;)

    I have quite a problem agreeing with this first part. Since we know both CVs have the same range (weapons) being big or small makes no difference : as soon as they are within each other's range, they can damage each others, and the ship having the highest DPS (usually the big one, with some exceptions) will be the one gaining the upper hand after any length of time. The fact that the small CV can retreat and come back into range faster only means that, and unless there is some network problem, both ships will shoot at the same time. Both ships are deemed to have the same top speed, so why would a big CV not keep chasing the small one and be a sitting duck for the other?

    I can see what you mean if what you intended was to picture the small CV staying at the very edge of weapon ranges and only dipping in range for a shot, but that only works if the big CV is not chasing it. Any deviation from a straight line in a pursuit means allowing the pursuant to close-in. If the small CV tries to go up/ down or sideways to try to come back into the big CV dead angle, given equal top speed, big CV will eventually close in and only has to turn its nose to keep front weapons in line. In fact this combat relies heavily on the longest range weapons, but same principles will apply if both ships have equal speed caps.

    In the next part you had to " #1 " so I corrected it as 1-2-3-4 :

    Not really.

    1 - This points reinforces my answer to your 1st part

    2 - Same here : lower DPS overall, so less chances to overcome the big guy

    3 - In a "big vs small" scenario, having less autonomy means delivering less damage with shorter battle time, and also spending much of that fuel in evasive maneuvers, not while delivering damage into range

    4 - Whatever is the cost/ time/ level to build here is irrelevant to what happens during battle

    I am convinced that an "optimal PvP CV build" will not be in the "smallish" category because apart from a superior nimbleness, it might not have sufficient DPS output nor armor to expect victory against a well designed armored mammoth that is not a sitting duck.

    Maybe the small vs big was not the best example to show that "deviation from an optimal build" would yield an advantage. Another idea or example ?

    Maybe we could try to better define what an "optimal PvP" design is first, to make it easier to see if any deviation from it make sense or not.
     
    #21
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019
  2. Average

    Average Commander

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    I think this is right. The current PvP meta has some occasions where you can get advantage by getting behind the other CV if you are more agile, but probably only because of the decoy turret thing and designs not catching up to the speed changes yet. Otherwise speed or agility hasn't been a big factor in PvP CVs, it tends to be very peripheral.

    What we probably need is a weapon tweak where you can have weapons with very slow but very powerful projectiles. So their is at least a rock paper scissors with big ship beats medium ship beats small ship beats big ship, or something like that. EVE online has this style, and they've been doing space PvP more and longer than most others I can think of.
     
    #22
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  3. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    I like that expression : fits situation like a glove ! :)

    Some discussions we have some time ago @StyleBBQ and I regarding the PvP meta included an idea like what you propose. We came up with some kind of railgun that could run the whole lenght of a ship : the longer the more powerful. But even at the lowest damage range, this "aim with the nose" weapon could redefine completely how CV to CV battles could happen. We brainstormed the idea enough to find acceptable solutions to many problems and requirements of the concept. Speed should not have to be low, the idea was to have a longer range for this weapon so ships would try to keep some distance to have a chance to evade a shot.
     
    #23
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019
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  4. Israel

    Israel Commander

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    No actually if you have a faster plus quick thruster acceleration speed on your lighter cv you can dodge these shots because you can stay out of range quicker then the heaver cv can react because of speed plus acceleration difference. This stacks up and makes you more op. Having same turret types won't matter because each turret has a set fixed range of how far they can go. Its an old pvp trick that most skilled veteran Jedi Masters know. :D I pick Master Yoda as my favorite Jedi Master in Star Wars. :cool:

    But also Kass i'm talking about the new flight system and speed changes of the new Update which makes this more possible.

    I'll also give you a real world example of how this happens. The Lockheed SR-71 "Blackbird" is a long-range, high-altitude, Mach 3+ strategic reconnaissance aircraft that was operated by the United States Air Force. Its known as one if not the fastest aircraft in the world. Its standard evasive action was simply to accelerate and outfly the missile.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_SR-71_Blackbird
     
    #24
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2019
  5. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    If what you are trying to tell me here is that a small CV is "the optimal build" then it is an optimal build, and the big CV is the deviation from it and gets no advantage from the deviation. From what you describe, if a ship can consistently deliver damage without receiving damage then it is an optimal design.
     
    #25
  6. IndigoWyrd

    IndigoWyrd Rear Admiral

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    I've said my piece about CPU, Blocks, Devices, Size Classes, Thrust-to-Mass ratios and all that. I don't feel the need to do it again. I don't hate the current system because it hasn't had a major impact on how I build, but it does make me consider what I'm building. I think does need some refining, balancing, and some hindsight.
     
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  7. piddlefoot

    piddlefoot Rear Admiral

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    People would probably start forgetting about CPU if the game had actual proper specialization, but alas it doesnt.
     
    #27
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