How to fight POI's in a unshielded ship?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Khyber, Jun 23, 2020.

  1. Khyber

    Khyber Lieutenant

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2016
    Messages:
    57
    Likes Received:
    54
    The avoid and comeback option does exist, but there is still the problem with being able to identify if a POI is going to be too hard. Even lvl 1/2 bases seem to shoot my SV down in a volley or 2 (using armored cockpit, harden steel and strafing left/right with 22m/s acceleration), i'm not simply sitting there trying to facetank...and despite what people are saying, on my server it seems impossible to dodge shots any more. But to avoid a POI you need to identify how strong it is, and with the way detectors work now you have to get within 300 meters for them to "ID" what the red ? mark is so you know what type of base you are dealing with.
    Previous alphas you could get close enough to reveal a POI on the map without having to get within turret range to do so.
     
    #21
    Khazul and nottrox ¯\ (ツ) /¯ like this.
  2. Fractalite

    Fractalite Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2016
    Messages:
    5,937
    Likes Received:
    11,582
    This is an important caveat. Did the server admins increase the damage? I mean, the player turrets will still shred stuff fairly quickly(plasma and artillery,) but sometimes servers will dramatically up the damage of turrets because they are attacked by multiple people and without a damage buff they are sometimes seen as "too weak."
     
    #22
  3. Hummel-o-War

    Hummel-o-War Administrator
    Staff Member Community Manager

    • Developer
    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2015
    Messages:
    11,741
    Likes Received:
    18,531
    Only my very personal opinion, but I do not want to be told how strong a POI is, but I want to experience it myself. And be rewarded in a way that I made the best assumption and was prepared for what I was up to on an UNKNOWN planet. If I notice a dozen turret, even if they might only spit snowballs at the end, I will advance cautiously. I do not need a sticky note "You can beat that" or "Better run away". ;) Personal opinion, as I said.
     
    #23
  4. Fenris

    Fenris Commander

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2018
    Messages:
    89
    Likes Received:
    169
    To be honest, I feel like most of the fault in my situation was probably down to me underestimating POIs on a starter planets and not going in fully prepared.

    But just for clarification, when you say "set to not regenerate", do you mean they don't regenerate at all or they don't regenerate once they are taken down to 0% shield strength?
     
    #24
  5. JCataclism

    JCataclism Ensign

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2020
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    18
    Indeed, my favourite - and mostly only effective :-D - strategy so far. But, as he asked how to do it using a SV... and many players despise leaving the air to go undergroiund. ;-D
     
    #25
  6. Coreador

    Coreador Commander

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    195
    Likes Received:
    152
    Wait until someone designs a POI with a few layers of explosive blocks underneath.
     
    #26
  7. krazzykid2006

    krazzykid2006 Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2017
    Messages:
    2,181
    Likes Received:
    2,804
    POI creators could just use a land claim device and set the playfield correctly for it. Then you can't dig in a radius around the POI.
    There are ways to prevent digging if one really wanted to.
     
    #27
  8. Vermillion

    Vermillion Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2018
    Messages:
    4,533
    Likes Received:
    10,944
    I'd like to see the landclaim function incorporated into the NPC and Admin cores for this purpose. Though with a shorter range so player can still tunnel near to a base, they just can't dig right into it.
     
    #28
    JCataclism and SylenThunder like this.
  9. RazzleWin

    RazzleWin Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    May 22, 2017
    Messages:
    1,387
    Likes Received:
    2,520
    Off Topic!
    Wow I never realized that those of us that liked to tunnel in to take a POI out was such a problem that people would want to create new mechanics to keep us from doing so. :eek:

    POI makers should be creating them with better defenses against us tunnel rats. :D Not flat out draw a line in the sand and say you can't pass and stop us from digging under.:rolleyes:
     
    #29
  10. Fenris

    Fenris Commander

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2018
    Messages:
    89
    Likes Received:
    169
    Yeah, reminds me of all the "fast travel destroys games and should be removed" threads I used to read in forums ....... about single player games. If you don't like it, then dont do it :D
     
    #30
  11. EternalHeathen

    EternalHeathen Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2019
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    393
    ... I want this.

    This makes sense to an extent, but I wouldn't want to see a Rock Paper Scissors thing like this become the norm in this game. I think a big part of it is planning and playstyle. I generally take down Poi's planetside and in space with my SV's. They're shielded standard, though, so I don't go after the major Poi's until I've built those SV's. All about planning and preparation. I also have a shielded CV with major firepower to the front that I use against shielded or heavily armed unshielded Poi's, but I've noticed in Alpha 12 so far that the Poi turrets have become so tough that they tend to kill my shields before my turrets can kill them.

    I enjoy being rewarded with a not-exploded-ship when I see those 12 shielded turrets in the distance and bravely run away.

    As someone who almost never tunnels, I still wouldn't want the option to be taken away. I don't think it necessarily comes down to the Poi makers though.

    Honestly, a lot of the stuff discussed here comes down to AI and the tools they are given. Poi's don't need to be super strong if they have a squad of AI piloted SV's protecting them in the air. Digging a tunnel beneath a planetary Poi? Not going to go so well for you when that AI piloted HV tank comes floating down your tunnel with a squad of rocket troops. Brought your fully upgraded "USSF Flapjack" (shameless personal plug) or "Ground Pounder" to that drone base and it's about to go down? Well here comes 2 planetary patrol vessels, a squad of SV's, a couple of Hv tanks... and what's that fireball on the horizon? Probably a CV battlefleet breaking atmo.

    This may all be dreams, but they're good dreams, and the reinforcements feature for space Poi's has given me some hope.

    Sorry for all the quotes, been trolling the forums all day on my phone while working, but couldn't log in to respond.

    Edit: For words I meant to type but didn't because I'm about to start playing again.
     
    #31
    JCataclism and MadRussian like this.
  12. Khazul

    Khazul Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2020
    Messages:
    1,257
    Likes Received:
    1,782
    Last week, I was flight testing one of my small (shielded) attack SV designs in solo and quite happily trashing three closely placed Zirax bases, and was hardly getting hit at all. I'm not the best pilot in the world, my ships are not the best no doubt, but I think both are decent together and I am generally considered to be a decent combat pilot in most games that I p[lay by those I play with.

    A couple of days ago I was playing with a friend on a local co-op game (just after the latest hotfix - I havnt checked the changes) and same shiup with a similar arrangement of similar sized zirax bases just got ripped to shreds on the first pass. Shield gone instantly, and the ship consequently gutted.

    We tried it again, same result. I was trying this on my dedicated server as well - same result. I havnt since had time to find a similar trio of bases to try again in solo.

    So - first thing that comes to mind:
    What is different between solo and multiplayer?
    What is different between a week or so ago and today?

    I wonder if this is a large part of the problem with discussing this - too many actual differences in context to meaningfully compare people's experiences? I have historically been a bit dismissive of people struggling against any POIs (shielded or not) with a decently put together SV, but after this, something is fishy. I do not remember it being this bad (so much of a difference) in mp previously.

    But, before I can usually comment on this, I need to understand what the differences are? Are there engine differences in multiplayer that mean mp pretty much guarantees a hit even with only a few ms of latency (I was hosting in the first mp case) whereas in solo, whatever bit of code decides there has been a hit will register that the player successfully avoided it? Is this a symptom of some really bad (cheaply implemented) network code?

    Also I will add regardless - anti grief (no build) zones outside of actual PvP on a PvP (not just mp) server are an utterly fucking stupid idea. They are extremely annoying and game breaking on so many levels. People should at the very least be able to fix their own damn ship FFS! But more than that - digging is a perfectly reasonable tactic.

    If POI designer want to protect against subterranean breaches, then do as some excellent POI designers have already done and get imaginative about it. It isn't as if you have to worry about CPU budgets is it?
     
    #32
    JCataclism and RazzleWin like this.
  13. Love Is Flash

    Love Is Flash Captain

    Joined:
    May 26, 2020
    Messages:
    233
    Likes Received:
    592
    What kind of wet dreams of a crazy builder?:D .... The EGS is an engineering sandbox, isn’t it all about being able to march over the NPC as you want, I wanted to dig in, I wanted to fly into ships. Of course, the old POIs were too light, although in some ways more interesting.
    but some of the modern ones simply cannot be stormed, the more profit at the moment from the assault is very conditional, at best 1 epic and there may be 1 optronic component and even a lot of garbage. Damage from a direct collision may exceed the profit received from the point.
    I believe that this still needs a strong balance of profit / complexity.
    Do you want to protect the poet from undermining, which is basically a logical method! Do POI overhead on legs. Do not limit the players. Personally, I’m in this game because it is the way it is, it should not turn into an X or the like ... EGS engineering sandbox.
     
    #33
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2020
    RazzleWin likes this.
  14. russak

    russak Lieutenant

    Joined:
    May 10, 2020
    Messages:
    57
    Likes Received:
    42
    I think the AI should be taught about underground. Any PvE game where the players can do things the AI can't and can't counter is going to suffer from "That's an exploit!" differences of opinion. Having to use "cheese" tactics to overcome a difficulty setting is a weakness in game design.

    So, there should be seismic sensors (they're already used for perimeter security IRL) for both sides and the AI should know when, where and how to dig countermines. Some of the most terrifying combat in human history has taken place in the uncertain light of underground engineering works, since the Romans. At the very least, there should be sensors that detect the breach of a wall or floor and vector a security response to the location.

    Basically, doing things to the AI that it can't do to you, could be seen as being unfair.
     
    #34
  15. Love Is Flash

    Love Is Flash Captain

    Joined:
    May 26, 2020
    Messages:
    233
    Likes Received:
    592
    Yes, but at the same time it is necessary to maintain a balance, because now the points of interest are super powerful with 12 alpha. I like the new design, even to hell with it that turrets like players can be set, but the problem is that there is no balance. TC, as I understand it, is all the same a sandbox, then the player must have complete freedom in the invention and application. Just Points of Interest should evolve in a timely manner, and not just become invulnerable.
     
    #35
  16. Escarli

    Escarli Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2019
    Messages:
    500
    Likes Received:
    478
    It's not the tunneling that gets me but the flippant desire to cheese the poi instead of doing it properly. Tunnelling to avoid the turrets gto reach the door fine but blowing up the underside for easy access to the core...nah.

    Going on topic rockets are indeed a pain. Most poi's have an approach with the turrets you can take that makes it easier. You just have to learn what that is. Use terrain where possible to hide behind etc.
     
    #36
    Vermillion likes this.
  17. Khazul

    Khazul Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2020
    Messages:
    1,257
    Likes Received:
    1,782
    Then don't put the core somewhere vulnerable to such an attack.
     
    #37
    JCataclism and Love Is Flash like this.
  18. Love Is Flash

    Love Is Flash Captain

    Joined:
    May 26, 2020
    Messages:
    233
    Likes Received:
    592
    Are you a joker, or you think me and friends are completely idiots? Show me a place in this area where you can hide from the plasma guns guarding the point of interest. Moreover, this is the very Zirax missile base which is protected by the Admin core.
    upload_2020-6-24_15-37-54.png
     
    #38
    Khazul likes this.
  19. Khazul

    Khazul Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2020
    Messages:
    1,257
    Likes Received:
    1,782
    That is a tame setup - often the drone base (or other large heavily turreted structure) is among that lot as well :)

    I am also coming round to thinking the real problem is the network code is part broken and assigning hits when it shouldn't, or at least wouldn't in single player in the same circumstances, so in mp even just 4 or 5 turrets turrets are now a no-go area (and pretty much force a tunnelling attack), whereas in SP - they are no problem at all.
     
    #39
    JCataclism and Love Is Flash like this.
  20. Love Is Flash

    Love Is Flash Captain

    Joined:
    May 26, 2020
    Messages:
    233
    Likes Received:
    592
    I already wrote about this, there is no balance, here we play the fourth on our dedicated server, simply and lamp-like, but such an arrangement can be navigated in the best case only by 4 T4 tanks with shields and etc., which are even theoretically very unlikely to be built on the first the planet
     
    #40
    Khazul likes this.

Share This Page