How to make CPU implementation interesting instead of limiting like now.

Discussion in 'Experimental Features Discussion' started by paxxo1985, Oct 30, 2019.

  1. paxxo1985

    paxxo1985 Commander

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2017
    Messages:
    151
    Likes Received:
    188
    How to make CPU implementation interesting instead of limiting like now.

    Ok, cpu how its implemented and thinked now is in a very bad shape, not interesting at all for builders but just something limiting.
    In a game where you can build huge capitals vessels being limited to small and unefficient ones is not the way to go.

    So this is my proposal to keep the cpu concept but implemented in a total different way (and more understandable for average users)

    Cpu Tiers for building ships

    CpuRarity.JPG


    This concept can be applied for ALL the systems like weapons, thrusters, rcs, and cargo.
    Just an exemple that can be applied to weapons

    weaponcpu.JPG

    So if you want to spawn you capitals like now you need to upgrade cpus of every single components.
    SIZE CPU, WEAPONS CPU, RCS CPU, THRUSTERS CPU, CARGO CPU.
    I want to spawn a big transporter vehicle? Good i need to find Legendary CPU for size and Legendary Cpu for CARGO.
    I want to spawn a combat CV? I need to find at least SIZE CPU legendary and WEAPON CPU legendary. And if i want it more powerful i need to add TRHUSTERS CPU AND RCS CPu
    I want to spawn a maxed out class 1 pvp cv? Ok i need a normal core but a legendary weapons Upgraded cpu and so on...
    So if i want my huge capital i need to grind for it finding in some special/diffucult pois the cpu upgrades to craft it. Actually is just mine mine mine, spawn it and leave the game because there is nothing else to do.
    This is interesting for both pve and pvp builders and keep the players interested also after hitting level 25.

    CPUTIERS.JPG

    Instead of size class we can use block count. Like normal core 1000 blocks, rare 2000, very rare 5000, epic 20000, legendary 50000.
    Every department has his specific cpu with his upgrades. It is modular building.
     
    #1
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2019
  2. CrazyDeviant

    CrazyDeviant Ensign

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2019
    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    14
    So, basically like finding rifle upgrades for hand weapons in POI's?

    Interesting... I like it.

    Blueprints will still work; you just need the components inside the Factory when you spawn it.

    The only thing I suggest, is that basic CPU cores still be allowed, up to a certain maximum kind of like now. But these ones you suggest, can be added as many as you can fit, and as many you can find.

    Clever.

    This would have a similar effect to my own suggestion, except using a resource that you have to work hard to find. You can literally call it a "Reverse- Engineered Alien CPU Block", which is why you have to find them, instead of building them.
     
    #2
    paxxo1985 likes this.
  3. paxxo1985

    paxxo1985 Commander

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2017
    Messages:
    151
    Likes Received:
    188
    Yes, you need to find cpu cores upgrades in pois *basically scavenging for finding alien lost technlogy* to upgrade the power of your ships. You start with normal core that you can craft that can be a ship class 1, with 2 weapons, only equipped with small thrusters, max 10 rcs (or add t2 t3 t4 tiers of rcs) that can have 10.000 cargo. (same cpu tiers can go for generators and fuel tanks too).
    You find in an alien poi the RARE WEAPON CPU? Good now you can upgrade your weapon core to have max 5 weapons and so on...
    This will increase drastically the longevity of the game both for pvp and pve.
     
    #3
    CrazyDeviant likes this.
  4. Ambaire

    Ambaire Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2015
    Messages:
    718
    Likes Received:
    553
    Honestly, that sounds annoying. I greatly dislike relying on randomized loot for progression. If I can't build it with resources I mine/gather myself, it's bad design.
     
    #4
    Coreador likes this.
  5. Furious Hellfire

    Furious Hellfire Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    May 3, 2017
    Messages:
    1,323
    Likes Received:
    2,917
    This is a good idea and also consider warp cpu upgrades, to allow a double warp distance !
    Perhaps even shield cpu upgrades that change the balance of regentime/strength etc.

    It could branch out into quite a large system giving us plenty of upgrades to hunt in the universe for specific purposes.

    Only problem, we will need more POI to loot be cause if this became legit, everyone and i mean everyone will be poi hunting for upgrades on HWS , there will be a queue of players waiting for POI to regen :D


    I still thing some upgrades should be attributes assigned to a ship rather than blocks always for extra cpu components. maybe we can have software upgrades instead for some existing devices ? so no blocks need adding.

    Even in the real world some devices just need a software remap to make them better like a car ECU :p
     
    #5
    paxxo1985 likes this.
  6. Ambaire

    Ambaire Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2015
    Messages:
    718
    Likes Received:
    553
    If they don't make many changes to CPU, I can see that I won't be playing with it enabled. I enjoy mass/volume restrictions. CPU is a pointless, tedious mechanic.
     
    #6
  7. CrazyDeviant

    CrazyDeviant Ensign

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2019
    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    14
    This is Empyrion: Galactic Survival. Though I have repeatedly said that this is first and foremost a building game, this is also a survival game. If POI bashing isn't a part of the experience, then you're basically playing a physics-light Space Engineers.
     
    #7
    paxxo1985 likes this.
  8. Kieve

    Kieve Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2016
    Messages:
    2,089
    Likes Received:
    6,893
    POI bashing is one thing, leaving progression up to randomized loot is another. Some people enjoy playing the odds with a loot pinata. I'm not one of them, doesn't sound like Ambaire is either. If you hit a progression wall because your POI selection didn't cough up the loot you need to move forward, then yeah - bad design.
    Now, if objects are known quantities guaranteed to be in X, Y, and Z POI's, then you can at least plan for that and you're not playing live-ammo roulette with the local factions for no reason.
     
    #8
  9. Ambaire

    Ambaire Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2015
    Messages:
    718
    Likes Received:
    553
    I have 700 hours in the game; I think I've figured out how to play it by now ;) and I most often play it with all settings on hardest, optional stuff enabled. Once 10.6 gets officially released, though, I will most likely be leaving CPU disabled as the current implementation is garbage.

    With this new faction system, it's perfectly possible to be honored with all 3 factions, including Zirax, so I don't have to worry about drone attacks or dodging drones when mining ore on new planets. The only POI loot I get these days is from alien POIs, like the factory / mine / reactor / etc. And they do have quite a bit of loot, too.
     
    #9
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
  10. Arrclyde

    Arrclyde Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2015
    Messages:
    1,737
    Likes Received:
    2,369
    Well if special parts for CPU extensions are dropped occasionally by, let's say a trooptransport for SV/HV, ind POI for bases and patrol vessels for CV, it could be a good system. Also black market trader on some station could have it.

    But since i actually prefer to be able to build stuff my self, i actually hope for a tech/research tree to discover how to build things. Maybe you have to sacrifice some of these components for a disassembling process in order to learn that. Slows down progression as high tech level tiered stuff needs more parts to be disassembled and they are rarer to find. And you leave it up to the player if they want to use them directly or take them apart (and get a bit of parts needed to build them back) in order to research construction.
     
    #10
    xelthor and geostar1024 like this.
  11. Ambaire

    Ambaire Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2015
    Messages:
    718
    Likes Received:
    553
    I want a way to craft all the armor modules and armor myself... I don't see a good reason why it should not be. Maybe make a research station thing that requires a certain number of the item in question and it consumes that item to give a blueprint for crafting it. Traders sell pretty much everything, I think.

    Basically, I want to get friendly/honored with all factions and still be able to get all the special stuff. Alien POIs would probably be the best option for some of it.
     
    #11
  12. Furious Hellfire

    Furious Hellfire Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    May 3, 2017
    Messages:
    1,323
    Likes Received:
    2,917
    maybe these upgrades can be obtainable as purchases from NPC trader POI ? requiring a certain amount of reputation to purchase.
    And maybe even certain tiers only available at specific POI. Higher tiers could be on harder planets, like Z and E would be.

    Or at least in vanilla it could be that way and hosts like HWS for example can choose to supply the tier cpus via loot only distribution at POI anyway if they wish.

    The hosting side allows nearly everything to be changed anyway so we create our own options as we go.
    I think vanilla sp should have everything craftable or obtainable as purchase from trader guaranteed including armour.

    Leave it to server hosts if they want to remove that and supply them as random loot only pickups to make things more interesting.
    This supports both sides of the coin here for random loot progression and fixed progression I hope.
     
    #12
  13. geostar1024

    geostar1024 Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2016
    Messages:
    6,293
    Likes Received:
    9,094
    100% agreed. Blasting apart 100 random dungeons to get enough rare-drop components is not my idea of a good time (and makes zero sense in-universe). Plus, if these components are so great, why are the Zirax not using them in their computer systems?
     
    #13
    Ambaire, xelthor, Kieve and 1 other person like this.
  14. geostar1024

    geostar1024 Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2016
    Messages:
    6,293
    Likes Received:
    9,094
    But the survival phase only lasts so long. I'd argue that it's attempts by the devs to artificially lengthen the survival phase that have been quite detrimental to gameplay overall. Once you've established yourself, then you need to figure out how to navigate the larger universe, and you end up with more Elite-style gameplay (always with the possibility of ending up in an escape pod on its way down to the nearest planet because you tangled with forces beyond your current capability).

    So, POI bashing shouldn't be the only end-game activity.
     
    #14
    Kassonnade likes this.
  15. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    May 13, 2017
    Messages:
    3,568
    Likes Received:
    4,980
    What's this ? "I don't like CPU so let's put CPU everywhere" ?
     
    #15
  16. Arrclyde

    Arrclyde Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2015
    Messages:
    1,737
    Likes Received:
    2,369
    I wouldn't say it that way. More off...
    "If you really have to implement such a system, at least make it fun and not as balant as this"

    So we don't have the proper level system and a techtree/research system is also planed. So why not make things to be more fun of a mechanic. So you have choices.
    - raid and find rare loot components or devices to use
    - trade them at a trader for currency to use them
    And a proper techtree/research system expands on these:
    - directly use a device you can't build or disassemble itin the Lab to learn how to build it
    - find special parts to build that device or disassemble it in a Lab to being able to build them on your own

    Depending on your research skill (skill system) it determines how many parts/devices you need to take apart to fully understand how it is functioning. And there could be "bright moment" event where you, depending on your luck, making more research progress.

    This is all depending on a proper system of course. A well thought out level/skill system and a good techtree/research system.
    Well not to forget a better CPU system, if they have to stay with their tiered system.

    I would propose to have a better option system for singleplayer and severowners: not a on/off switch for CPU but a slider
    - heavy restricted CPU limit (as it is now)
    - a modest CPU limit (1.5 times the value, or cut use by devices)
    - a very modest CPU limit (either 5 times the CPU limit or CPUs used by devices devided by 5)
    - and an off option

    Easy to set up game starts and easier to track modifications for the serverlist info tabs. Oh, Eleon, and while you are at it do the same with mass/volume. ;-)
     
    #16
    paxxo1985 likes this.
  17. CrazyDeviant

    CrazyDeviant Ensign

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2019
    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    14
    I think having shops sell them, and tweaking the loot table so that they show up more often than not, would be a good compromise.

    That being said, having a random element, and making it non-researchable, should still be kept there, because otherwise it just boils down to players shooting players, and players mining resources. At least throwing some PVE interaction will keep things interesting, in terms of resource gathering.

    I should also note that, even in the modern-day, surrounded by very powerful computers, self learning artificial intelligences, decades of research, and access to some of the most capable scientists in human history ... we still have a piece of ancient scripture that we have yet to translate into something we understand.

    It is very possible that the "alien" technology we install into our ships, we have no idea how to actually create it ourselves ... merely backward-engineer it to make it work. That's my headcanon, anyway. Look up the Voynich manuscript if you're interested in what real life example I'm referring to. For alien languages and tech, this is especially true.
     
    #17
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
  18. geostar1024

    geostar1024 Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2016
    Messages:
    6,293
    Likes Received:
    9,094
    I mean, sure, it would be better than rare random drops, but that's a low bar to clear.

    The solution to the end-game malaise is not to attempt to artificially gate resources, but to create meaningful interactions with the larger universe. We're dropped into the middle of this systems-spanning empire, that has some relationship with a powerful trade corporation, and we're probably not the only survivor. That means there's immediately at least main factions, all of whom have different and possibly contradictory goals. There's tons of room there for story-telling and galaxy-spanning plots. PvP arenas and resource gathering will each have their place in the end-game, but I don't see why we should expect or plan for them to be the only end-game activities.

    For alien languages, I would agree. And I might even be persuaded if this were actually alien tech. But we're able to build warp drives and directed energy weapons and super-efficient thrusters from raw materials, yet a computer system is somehow beyond our fabrication abilities? Yeah, the devs can simply make it that way, but that doesn't mean it makes any sense (certainly not any more than the sense that non-craftable boosters make).
     
    #18
    Ambaire likes this.
  19. CrazyDeviant

    CrazyDeviant Ensign

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2019
    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    14
    It's not nearly as simple as you think.

    To give an example, when it comes to an engine, you can tear it apart, you can look at the parts, you can study the materials, you can study the composition of the materials, you can backward engineer it, and you can put it back together again.

    In essence, that's why we fly jet aircraft, use rockets, have remote control systems, and use many other revolutionary technologies, because we were able to study confiscated German technology during World War II, and talk to some other scientists who made them.

    Same with the Russians and the B-29 bomber; they literally took a few, confiscated B-29s from the Americans, that landed after making emergency landing on Russian soil after bombing Japan, took them apart to the literal rivet, measured everything, studied everything, and made almost perfect copies, only differing in the measurement units.

    However, computers are a different beast.

    Even during World War II, the only way the Allies were able to break the Enigma code, was to take an actual device, along with a code book, to be able to translate what the machine was saying. Without both of them, the Allies were helpless to figure out the movements of German U-boats.

    Ultimately, it comes down to two very different, yet similar problems; computers have both a machine language, and their underlying technology for their circuitry.

    For every single circuit board, every single chip, and every single resistor in a computer, some programmer has to add code to tell the computer how to use it. Test it to make sure it works with the other parts. Then test it with as many other parts as possible to see if they will work with as many use cases as possible. Back in the 80s, compatibility was a major issue, until IBM came out with the IBM PC compatible spec, which everyone adopted. Except Apple. Because Apple. But even they have started adopting PC components for their MacBooks. You wouldn't be able to run Windows on them without it.

    Even with that being the case, we still have issues with some computers not working with certain types of Hardware. FX processor on my computer, for example, no matter what I did, refused to read more than two sticks of RAM correctly. My Phenom II, on the other hand, no problem whatsoever. I know it's not a driver issue, because I tested it with four different processors, three different motherboards, and 10 sticks of RAM.

    This also applies for every single game that is made. Ever see a bug in this game? It is either a mistake in the game code, causing problems with itself, or a compatibility problem for some random hardware configuration, which is why developers often ask for hardware specifications in bug reports.

    One other thing to note, is that, without source code, many programmers can't fix a game that has already been compiled, because it has been turned into alphabet soup that only a computer can understand. Even with the source code, if there are no in-line comments explaining what a piece of code does, other programmers may be helpless to understand it. I remember hearing of some very famous software that has been lost to history, simply because developers lost access to the source code. And I have heard companies going bankrupt, when an in-house IT person leaves with all of their knowledge of a system, and don't leave any documentation behind to run it. This is particularly prevalent in companies trying to cut IT costs, without realizing how important they are.

    With all of that historical information aside, let's think about some random alien technology we don't even understand. We still don't understand some human languages, so learning an alien language, especially one that may be hostile to you, would be incredibly difficult.

    Now try to understand machine code in Alien terms. It may not even be zeros and ones, but rather Quantum Computing. Even if we had Quantum Computing, they may have something beyond even that.

    Combine that with all of their version of circuitry, and whatever compositions they have (say, U.S.S. Voyager's bio-neural gel-pack circuitry, compared to the U.S.S. Enterprise-D's isolinear circuitry, using Voyager as the 'alien' element), and telling it how to work with each other, and you can understand why this would be impossible, or nearly impossible, without being taught by the aliens who owned it. And, knowing how many human nations refuse to share technology with each other, I highly doubt, even in the universe of Empyrion, that such knowledge would be nearly impossible to obtain. Even if you stole the documentation for it, you still have to understand the documentation.

    And that is why I believe Alien CPUs should be a special drop from one of those factions.

    Yes, I firmly believe that we could adapt such a technology to work on human ships. Human ingenuity is usually good enough to figure out what something does, and to plug it in and see how it works. I figure if you look at an alien ship long enough, see how everything plugs in, and see how it corresponds to one another, you can figure out how to reverse engineer it to make it work on a human ship.

    But to fully reverse-engineer it, understand how to produce it, how to code it, and make it work ... would be very difficult, indeed. I could imagine that the T4 CPU is Humanity's attempt at reverse engineering, and the cap on how many you can have, is a direct response to the problems of trying to implement the technology. For example, what if the human version became sentient if you added more than four, and started killing off the crew?
     
    #19
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
    Vermillion and geostar1024 like this.
  20. geostar1024

    geostar1024 Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2016
    Messages:
    6,293
    Likes Received:
    9,094
    Fair enough. I guess where we differ is that I don't think it should require alien tech to build the T3 and T4 extenders.

    EDIT: Sorry, that was rather dismissive of your post. I agree that I was glossing over the intricacies of adapting unfamiliar (not even alien) tech. The difficulties with alien tech would be considerable, as you've outlined (incidentally, this would be an excellent branch of a research/knowledge tree, and one could even have major plot points related to finally understanding/decoding some critical piece of alien tech). I guess it feels rather too limited to have only a couple of CPU levels before alien tech is needed, so that's why I'd like to see all CPU tiers be obtainable from raw materials. Of course, I have serious issues with the whole CPU implementation, and honestly, this is only really a minor concern (given that recipes can be modified with the config file); the whole CPU system architecture is the much bigger concern.
     
    #20
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019

Share This Page