Leveling Progression

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by NBS_Solarwind®, May 3, 2020.

  1. NBS_Solarwind®

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    I just started a new game in A12-2 this morning, not sure what to think, I know this game is a a lot about the endgame but I think they need to look at the leveling progression, example follows.

    Started game this morning set to hard, slow exp hard enemies the works.
    45 mins later i am level 6
    i have a small base, starter HV all good, EXCEPT
    i have all T2 weapons, epic sniper, epic drill, Laser Rifle, Honored with Talon and Polaris, and everything in the factory ready to make a T3 level 12 HV including 4 small bridges and 2 small matrix.

    i think the exp part of leveling is a little fast but not to bad, but the ease of access to so much high tier gear and equipment so early in the game sort of defeats the purpose and game mechanics of leveling in the first place, kind of like a i win button.

    The only thing I don't have yet is a set of heavy armor bad luck with the RNG gods i guess.
     
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  2. Vermillion

    Vermillion Rear Admiral

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    The Human Remains quest to find the Crashed Titan over-rewards the players with high-end lategame equipment, such as the Laser Rifle, a T2 Pulse Rifle and I believe a set of Medium Armor all at the same time.
    What point is there in giving players a T2 pulse rifle? The single best (non-epic) weapon for close combat? Or a loaded Laser Rifle (+100 ammo), that outperforms a T1 sniper rifle that you can't craft ammo for until you're around level 20.
    There's a decent amount of loot IN the titan wreck and the quest was to find that. What a new player at this point should get is some emergency rations, medkits, a few hundred rounds of rifle ammo and/or an EVA Booster since you can't go into space without one and it requires Gold to craft. Things that are consumable that don't break the rest of the game but are very useful.

    The faction reputation is another issue that's been getting mentioned lately as well. It's too easy to get reputation for Talon and Polaris from killing Zirax which have no impact to each other. It's one thing to kill drones trespassing in Talon territory and get reputation for it, it's another to massacre a military outpost on the other side of the planet from talon territory where the talon won't see you killing zirax troops.
     
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  3. ravien_ff

    ravien_ff Rear Admiral

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    There are a lot of people who think there isn't enough loot and resources on the starting planet. I agree with you both though.

    Ideally, we need a few more starting planets so there's a good variety in choices.
     
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  4. NBS_Solarwind®

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    Sadly i didn't even do the human remains quest.
    but i think it may partly have been the RNG gods messing with me, started another game and its going much better.
     
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  5. Atomino

    Atomino Captain

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    You also become incredibly talented when you collect vegetable eggs. If you can collect a lot of eggs, sooner or later you can build a warp drive. That makes sense, doesn't it?
    I mean, Sir Isaac Newton had his best ideas while picking apples.
     
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    Last edited: May 4, 2020
  6. Kaz

    Kaz Lieutenant

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    I tend to forget there is even a level system in this game. I'm usually level 25 in a couple of hours and then never think about it again.

    They could honestly remove it and i dont think id notice, im almost always the appropriate level for whatever i want to unlock by the time i have the resources for it.
     
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  7. Hector G

    Hector G Commander

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    This probably belongs in suggestion forums but since it's on topic here's my quick ideas for progression & discovery for both flora/fauna and blueprints/technology:

    - Add LOTS of exotic and alien models for flora and fauna however harvesting them will give you an 'unknown' item until you are able to build a research table where you can then find out it's properties: plant protein, sweetener, buds, etc. Until you do unlock research table only way to find out is eat it and get indigestion which also gives medicines more value.
    Some plants should be absolutely poisonous unless they are processed into medicine first. This can be the stuff like alien thorns, etc so make those edible.

    -For technology instead of unlocking with levels you either have to salvage it from a POI and bring back to the research table to reverse engineer it which unlocks it in the tree. Or buy it from a trader. The level cap could still apply to build since higher tier items shouldn't be available to find on starter planets and cost should be high at trader.

    -For blueprints/factory I think any blueprint you want to spawn should require credits for the blueprint (either at trader or a terminal you can make in your base). Then you need to bring credits and the resources to a NPC factory (not the trading station) who will "build and deliver" the actual vehicle or base wherever you want as usual after the time passes by.
    Player should not have a personal factory until later then all they have to do is provide resources.
    I feel this will encourage player to spend early game making products to sell so they can get the bases and vehicles they want OR just make it on your own in real time for a challenge.
     
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  8. Atomino

    Atomino Captain

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    That's kind of what I was thinking.
    The portable constructor for example is also overpowered. It's something like a pressure cooker, it can cook a steak if you throw a bug in it, maybe it can bake some bricks if you put earth in it, but it shouldn't be possible to make complex technologies with it. And besides, it should at least need energy. I'd still like to be able to be happy about a ventilator I found in a wreck.
     
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  9. Germanicus

    Germanicus Rear Admiral

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    In one of the Q&A's it was mentioned that a much needed overhaul of the Tech Tree will come in the near future. That said the Way how and for what Experience is gained goes parallel with it. It was mentioned that Skill Specialization might be a way to achieve this. Maybe like Osiris? With Classes to chose? Military/Engineers/Hunters or something like that. Would be great if it goes like that.
     
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  10. russak

    russak Lieutenant

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    Please, please, please, please, please, NO.
    FRELLIN'.
    CLASSES.

    They're a crutch for lazy game design that is leaned on by far too many lazy-assed game designers.
     
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  11. ravien_ff

    ravien_ff Rear Admiral

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    I just don't think classes would work as well in a sandbox game like Empyrion. I would rather things be unlocked via resources, tech, etc.
    Especially because much of the game play in Empyrion is ship based rather than character based.

    I think the stuff you build, and how good it is, is what should matter.
     
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  12. Khazul

    Khazul Rear Admiral

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    Until about level 12-15 or so, I am hardly ever held back by what I have unlocked, but always by acquiring the resources to build those items.
    With this in mind, I am not even sure we need the unlock system at all, or certainly not in its current form. Maybe a system of looting/acquiring blueprints for components from different factions might be more interesting, or some actual research base system. But as ever - the real unlock system is about obtaining decent supplies of the required resources.

    Maybe a lot more resource types (ie probably double what we currently have) would stretch the progression out in some meaningful way as well as giving the new galaxy an actual purpose beyond being a waste of pentaxid while you discover one empty useless planet/asteroid field after another. Maybe some resources that need special mining and combining/processing, for eg from a star maybe (think 'solari' etc for anyone who has read the star force novels).

    I am OK with the early unlocks being too easy to being almost irrelevant (as other factors tend to be a natural limit instead). I think they may even be a placeholder. I am OK and actually prefer that the main blocker is resource acquisition rather than artificial level based unlocks.
     
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  13. russak

    russak Lieutenant

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    I agree mostly.
    I think there's room for character development in this style of game, even to the point of features that get associated with what gets called "RPG" type games, like skill levels for weapons, and piloting and other stuff where the game can be made to "simulate" different levels of ability. I also think there's room in the game for non-ship-based shenanigans, and space for skill (of both character *and of player*) to compensate for lacking in equipment.

    For the record, Levels are also, IMO, nonsense. An interlocking web of skills which develop with use and practice makes so much more sense. The "here's a bunch of skill points to spend now you have a new level" is less obnoxious than some approaches which use levels, but it's another crutch that the game industry needs to throw away and learn to actually walk.
     
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  14. Khazul

    Khazul Rear Admiral

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    There are already significant blockers to usability of craft and weapons in the form of stalling for a fraction of a second sometime when you want to shot something (usually with shotgun after just rounding a corner), and dodgy flight model / weird twitchy mouse behaviour.

    I really do not want anything else artificial getting in the way when the basics are yet to work smoothly. Also, I am generally quite good in FPS type games and likewise usually quite a decent pilot in game involving flying. For me it get annoying really fast when a game adds something artificial in the way of that.

    OTOH - I don't mind skills for actual enhancements (for eg, the more I run, the fitter I get, so less stamina needed. The more I lift/jump, the stronger I get etc). But skills who's lack of artifcially cripples me? NO F******* WAY! :)
     
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  15. SifVerT

    SifVerT Commander

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    For my upcoming A12 multiplayer scenario I've had this very much in mind when working on it. I've changed the XP gain, revised loot further and I'm sure that no one built their first SV in any way the first game session. You won't even consider having your first SV the first session, surviving is the first thing to consider, making sure you got food and fuel to power your machinery as I got rid of that blasted Portable Constructor. You have to give priority to what you waste fuel on in the early game as you need the constructor to make plant fibers for biofuel even (the suit can make biofuel from fibers).

    With a bit of making the right choices you have a stabilized situation after an hour of playing and a Mobile Constructor Platform as I call it when you build the immobile HV with constructor. Survival elements depend on the chosen planetary conditions, the worst planets you may spend 2-3 hours on thinking whether you'll survive to even get anywhere on, while you maybe have a constructor after 30 min on the easy planet, but even on the easy one there's some challenge. Harder ones got Zirax patrols all over the planet and they may neutralize your HV so you are once again in deeper problems.

    I played for a few hours on my own scenario and I got a barebones HV with 1x gatling gun and the last thing I did on my HV was to put some additional armor on it (normal steel blocks). I'm beginning to have enough fuel now so I don't suffer serious fuel shortage and its beginning to look better with resources and now I can go hunting in my HV to acquire meat for Steaks which is the only thing I can make.

    I may soon be able to build my first SV. Last night I built my first Shotgun T1 too. It really is an upgrade to the Pistol T1 (which on the other hand is buffed in my scenario to be more like a Magnum pistol but low ammo cap of 7 rounds). Survival Tool is considerably weaker than pistol and got a 5 meter range, mostly useful for cutting down trees early game in its defense mode (players start with pistol).

    When you play my scenario you don't have too fast progression. I reached level 5 iirc in the hours I played and progression is slower for every level you reach as the required XP increases. I reworked the whole Tech Trees so they feel more intuitive and even hull armor tiers are unlocks.

    Prey animals barely reward any XP, and non-ranged predators reward much less XP as I didn't want to see effortless grind to increase XP and only Zirax troopers for example reward anything worth grinding on past level 5, and I made sure your handheld weapons max range is in range of Zirax max range so you are forced into range and can't just pick them off sniping effortlessly.

    Those are examples of what you can do to the game in order for it to gain a sense of progression. I did indirectly advertise my scenario perhaps, but I wanted more to demonstrate what you can do with the game if you have it as a hobby to walk around in the game files on your spare time. If you don't have the time or interest in that you can play the scenarios of people like me, ravien_ff included. We can now include our config with the scenario we work on in the advent of A12, although mine is kept online with the scenario as there's a harsh competition online.

    People who never explore anything beyond the base game miss a lot of its potential and never before A12 the game has had so much potential for improving the base game.
     
    #15
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  16. Khazul

    Khazul Rear Admiral

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    There are many many easy ways to increase the early game grind and slow the pace of the game etc. Some of them are so trivial they are game op0tions that you can choose fore yourself. Then there is the 'stretch the mid game' approach that PE kind of has - basically it forces mining to end up be by hand to slow down building, but doesn't otherwise change levelling. I guess here mid game is defined to not by levels but by what you can build.

    It is however much harder to stretch the end game which is what is sorely needed.
    I think levelling should basically be the training and customisation of approach exercise and those of us who already know what we are doing should be able to get through it more or less as quick as resources allow without be artificially slowed. For noobs it is a chance to get top sample each bit of tech in turn without being swamped by it all in one go.

    If there is progression and challenge to preserve interest past level 25, then that is where the real focus of our efforts should be. It doesnt matter how much you stretch the early and mid game if once you get to late, there is nothing to hold our interest because nothing scales well, and looting may have long lost its appeal and the existing base attack are automatically handled by a few early game turrets. Ie you reach the end regardless even if you delay it.

    So, I see streching the early mid game to be nothing more than a stop gap or at best something to keep the grind core types happy and probably drive the more action orienated types away out of utter mind numbing boredom when they cannot face grind through the early stage ever again.

    A friend wanted me to make another fallout 76 character recently. I told him no - I just cant face that grind again - the game just isnt good enough. Obvious he like that game a lot more than I do :)

    If there is going to be a grind, then what follows had really be worth the time and effort to get there.
     
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  17. VPanda

    VPanda Lieutenant

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    sounds interesting
    is your scenario available for single play?
     
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  18. SifVerT

    SifVerT Commander

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    Unfortunately not, it's an online multiplayer scenario made for my server.
     
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  19. SifVerT

    SifVerT Commander

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    Much of what you write about can be reworked.

    Grind, in all honor in my scenario, it's actually tailored to be action-oriented as I'm leading players to assault POIs to progress. Survival means that you have sense of vulnerability and progression counteracts vulnerability for a given stage of gameplay. In my scenario, for example, it's usually better to attack one of my low level POIs called camps, it makes your progression go faster and you can get your hand on Promethium fuel faster.

    Everything is grind essentially, it depends on what you consider tedium or not, and about expectations. No game can't be without grind or it means they are letting go of the game challenge. Progression = Grind. Tedium must be counteracted letting the player progress via clear milestones and overcoming new tiers. When you get new technology it gives you a good feeling. The player must still sense there's action and not just sitting still during the progression, that creates tedium.

    Base attack on my server requires several turrets and without good high tier ones you need to also launch that interceptor or you'll lose turrets and perhaps even your base as the drones make their way into it.

    I would claim I already have end-game in my scenario.
     
    #19
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  20. Atomino

    Atomino Captain

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    You build a big ship that can take you to the most remote places in the galaxy, only to discover that the galaxy is completely empty. Well, that's probably how it really is.
     
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