New Heavy CV/BA Doors

Discussion in 'Experimental Features Discussion' started by Pyston, Jun 22, 2019.

  1. Pyston

    Pyston Captain

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    I really like the new double doors, but am concerned that their usage may be stunted due to most designs calling for an odd voxel count on the width of a ship.

    If you take note, most builds are built on the odd block count on the YZ axis. This is usually done so the author can center the doors along a main hallway in a bilateral symmetrical build, along with lights, pilots chairs etc.

    The new double doors are two blocks wide, which means they can not be utilized down the middle of a ship unless that ship is built on an even block count.

    Is there a technical reason why you do not want clipping of the opening doors into blocks? If not, could we get a set of these new double doors that would fit in a 1x1x1 CV/BA block? Obviously the side treatment of the 3D door prop would need to be removed, but this seems to be the only logical option to create a set of double doors that would work on odd block count ships. The other option is making the doors 3 blocks wide, but that has its own issues as far as implementation into builds and is kinda opening pandoras box. The best solution would be the double doors set in a 1x1x1 block.

    I have been brainstorming. If it is not desirable for Eleon to create a 1x1x1 double door, or technically a challenge and the 3x1 double door option is the best option, I would then suggest that we create a bulk head door instead. A door that would be roughly 2.25x 1.5 door models wide but reside in a 2 tall x 3 wide block space. Allow the top above the bulkhead door enough space that 1/2 blocks could be placed up there for ceilings (to work with the new corridor walls and ceiling blocks). I would then make the bulkhead door airtight with the forcefield, BUT only when there is no O2 on one side of the door. Think of it as a way to partition sections of a ship if they get damaged and the ship needs to be sealed. So, this bulkhead door would usually always be in an open state, but auto close and activate when no o2 is present.

    -Also note. I would center the bulkhead door to a block and taper the ends out in the 3D model so that they would work with a 1/2 block or 1/4 wall block model. The current way all the doors are made, they sit to the end of a block, not centered. The issue here (which will plague the new 2block wide double doors) is that you can only place a block on one side against the door model, but not the other. I would argue that all doors need a center variant.

    Secondly, and a bit off topic. But on the topic of doors. Could we get a set of SV/HV doors that are 4 blocks tall and 3 blocks wide, along with a 4 tall 2 wide door? The player model barely fits through the doors and I believe the helmet actually clips through them. The 1st person camera height also feels like the player is too tall as they are staring at the top of the door frame. I personally would shrink the player model slightly, but I imagine that would incur more work with camera POV and chairs etc. It might be simpler to create a taller door.

    Thank you.
     
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  2. Fractalite

    Fractalite Rear Admiral

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    I want to second this.

    Keep the current because I have run into situations where a 2,1,1 would be nice, but these new doors are FAR superior to the old ones. Much more mature/sophisticated and that fits Empyrions theme - simple voxel building but more capable/mature texturing, etc. So follow Pyston's advice, swap to a 1x1x1 and just jettison the old(which, granted, is not something he is calling for but I am hijacking :p.) Also keep the new door 1x1x1 varients where the doors are to the right or left .5 large blocks wide because they add interesting flavor.
     
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  3. Pyston

    Pyston Captain

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    The 2x1x1 would be amazing as Infirmary doors, or Lounge Doors etc. But used on the Left Ride side of a ship.

    This is how I came to the idea of bulkhead doors.

    The 1x1x1 "single" doors are great for entry into limited travel areas like crew quarters or bathrooms, closets, etc.

    The 2x1x1 "double" doors would be great for entry into more trafficked areas like mess halls, lounges, engineering etc.

    I would like to see an even wider door (and taller...this is where my bulkhead suggestion kinda ties in) for high traffic areas like main corridors.

    I can easily imagine this door being 3 wide, but it would need to be centered on a block and have the ends be texturable/colorable to blend with blocks, or the ends be of a creative design that flows seamlessly into 1/4 & 1/2 blocks.

    While I am thinking about this. If there is no way to ever allow props to be on a separate grid (as Kieve suggested awhile back) so that they can be placed more freely, would it make sense to create the "wall" blocks as negative cutouts into a 1x1x1 full block instead of the 1/2 and 1/4 protrusions? This way you could place a lever or light on the wall block AND it would allow for 1x1x1 corridors where as currently that is not possible.

    EDIT: I am extremely thankful for the artist creating this stuff and for the implementation into the game, so I am no way criticizing the work performed, but after playing with the new blocks and props it just feels like their use is somewhat limited by the 1x1x1 grid placement of things in game. I love the new wall blocks, but find the space emotionless and barren due to the fact that we cant place props in them.
     
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  4. Fractalite

    Fractalite Rear Admiral

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    Yeah, I would LOVE to see a 2x2x1, a 2x3x1, a 3x2x1, and.... erm, am I missing any? The shutter doors have been the go-to replacements for those positions/dimensions and they are not very visually appealing. They do not need to depart, but I have intensely disliked using them. I love using the forcefields for differing visuals, and I dislike using the shutters so much, I tend to just swap in the forcefield because it looks better to not have any door.

    The visual could be your suggestion of a bulkhead, it could be flat metal paneling and or sci-fi framed for BA's, it could also be the existent glass panel with a frame. Perhaps all of the above?

    We can dream....

    *sighs while looking into the distance with a wistful longing smile on his face*
     
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  5. Pach

    Pach Captain

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    ... I actually prefer a 2-wide corridor, as I find 1 wide to be rather claustrophobic.

    I've also found some items that I would run along a ship centerline are sometimes odd blocks wide (the warp core/penta tank), and sometimes even wide (the T2 generator).

    So having both variants available would be the "best" solution: a variant for odd-block count centerlines, and a variant for even-block count centerlines (if that makes sense).

    I ran into the reverse problem with the new boarding ramps: most of them are odd width, and I needed an even width one for a build...
    (I suspect all these blocks will come "eventually", but it's more important to get other features into the game right now, than fine-tune the blocks we have for building)
     
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  6. Pyston

    Pyston Captain

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    Ohh no doubt a 1x1 corridor feels small, but there are some places I could use them. I just want the option. I feel a 2 wide corridor is the best size, but stretched out across three blocks maybe. It is my experience that most people end up building the width of a bilateral symmetrical ship on the odd count. Odd voxel counts regardless of the game played, from Landmark, Minecraft, Space Engineers, Dual Universe, Empyrion, Portal Knights etc, always offer the best detail in a odd width build. That was my observation from all the games I mentioned. Roof peaks in Minecraft look more detailed on the odd count, spaceship spines look more detailed on the odd count. I would ultimately like the option to do both as you suggest but because games cost time and money, I would error on spending that time and money on assets that appeal to the "goto" build style and many if not most of the assets for Empyrion are on the odd count.

    On an odd count spaceship, you can have the option of a pilot chair centered or two pilot chairs side by side. On an even voxel count you get one option, side by side. Same thing for lights.

    I agree that its more important to get features into the game, but because building is a feature of the game and a core one at that and because assets have to be created alongside development of the features, it just makes sense to error on the more logical aspect of building, which is going to be on the odd count. I would love to see both, but that means a doubling of every asset and in some cases in order to center a light on an even build spaceship, you would need at the minimum a 2x1 light block area, or even 2x2 where as now its 1x1. The odd count scenario just lends itself better to building in voxel games.

    If we could place props freely like landmark could, the odd vs even becomes less of an issue, but even then the greater detail scenario will still favor the odd count.
     
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  7. Pach

    Pach Captain

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    I have to wonder if people do that because they PREFER to do it, or because the utilities given to them to build are centered around it?

    Negative. There is at least one pilot chair option on the CV that is actually 2 blocks wide, and goes nicely right over a CV "even" centerline. So you can indeed have the option of a pilot chair centered.

    I didn't check SV/HV, but having more even options would be nice!
     
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  8. Pyston

    Pyston Captain

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    I don't think its a preference in as much as its a logical conclusion. As I stated, odd building simply offers more flexibility in detail. See my attached diagram.


    I was speaking in general rule terms. Its nice we have the 2x1 pilots chair, but that does not set the rule.
    What about lights?


    SV/HV do not enjoy the same luxury as CV's do in this regard. If a player wants a centered chair, they must build on the odd voxel count.

    And look, I don't mean to be argumentative, but the odd vs even debate is not a debate. Its just math. Objectively speaking, odd builds will always allow for more creative flexibility in detail than even. Its just math. When we start speaking in terms of a building game, we have to keep in mind the development cost. Making 1 prop is cheaper than making two. Making 1000 props is cheaper than making 2000. The devs made the right choice from the beginning in regards to designing assets for building and basing most of the game on the odd voxel count.
    And keep in mind, I only speak in terms of bilateral symmetry. The voxel could even or odd front to back has little to no impact on creative freedom.
     

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