New hit point values

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by cp6891, Feb 12, 2019.

  1. cp6891

    cp6891 Commander

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2017
    Messages:
    230
    Likes Received:
    234
    I wish I had explored this more while it was in experimental but I just didn't quite get that far. Calculating mass based on exact block shapes seems like a great system, but basing the hit points on that same scale kind of lowers armor values too far. Understanding that future updates might make this system make more sense, from what we have and know right now, I feel like this change maybe took realism a little too far. My thought was perhaps still calculate based on shape but alter the calculation so that the smallest shape has an armor value of half that of the full block. In my opinion, this would be a good balance.
     
    #1
  2. H.P. Strangelove

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2015
    Messages:
    298
    Likes Received:
    745
    It's a pretty drastic change for people that like to build with stuff other than square blocks. Personally I prefer to use angles and curved shapes whenever possible, but the current system definitely favors just building a brick.

    If they're keeping these values, then some type of shielding will be required sooner rather than later.
     
    #2
    victusfate and cp6891 like this.
  3. cp6891

    cp6891 Commander

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2017
    Messages:
    230
    Likes Received:
    234
    I think even with shields these numbers would need to be changed a bit.
     
    #3
  4. ravien_ff

    ravien_ff Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2017
    Messages:
    2,062
    Likes Received:
    3,906
    I think they reduced hp values too far.
     
    #4
    H.P. Strangelove and cp6891 like this.
  5. H.P. Strangelove

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2015
    Messages:
    298
    Likes Received:
    745
    Yeah, I just checked. Some blocks have values that are absurdly low.

    Everything is basically a thin piece of glass now, even combat steel.

    Definitely needs adjustment or reversion to previous values. There's kind of a big uproar on the steam forum now since apparently attacking a POI is tantamount to driving a tonka toy into a brick wall.
     
    #5
    xerxes86 likes this.
  6. cp6891

    cp6891 Commander

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2017
    Messages:
    230
    Likes Received:
    234
    Yeah, I've been on that one. I can't blame them either. I did a little testing today and was really surprised how quickly I could blast through some of my better built HV's. The hit points weren't perfect before, but what I call the main blocks, kind of that first 2 rows of shapes, all had the same value, and that kind of made sense. If you consider that all those sloped blocks, despite having less mass, would realistically offer at least as much if not more protection as the solid cube.
     
    #6
  7. H.P. Strangelove

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2015
    Messages:
    298
    Likes Received:
    745
    You're correct - sloped blocks would actually offer more protection against certain types of weapons. At least that's the conventional wisdom from most RP / wargame / TT type environments.

    Anything that encourages borg cubes I am firmly against. I have no issues with cubes from a design standpoint - I just don't like the idea of massively gimping a build just because it's going for something more complex.
     
    #7
    xerxes86 likes this.
  8. geostar1024

    geostar1024 Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2016
    Messages:
    5,338
    Likes Received:
    7,375
    I appreciate the consistency that was introduced via these new calculations. What bothers me isn't the low HP of sliver-like blocks (that's to be expected, based on the amount of material in them; if your decorative bits get blown off, simply put them back on after the fight with a repair bay), it's that a full block's worth of material is consumed when placing them. From what I understand, the devs may be looking into whether it's possible to modify the placing system so that approximately proportional material is consumed instead, but apparently it's somehow tricky.
     
    #8
    MadRussian likes this.
  9. MidasGunhazard

    MidasGunhazard Captain

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2017
    Messages:
    774
    Likes Received:
    822
    I think the baseline needs to be brought up since any kind of decorative shaping is going to be less than whole, which means awful armor now unless you use whole blocks.

    Almost as bad is the way volume is calculated for the modular containers now. You're pretty much just punished needlessly for having anything but square blocks for storage. They weigh the same, and they cost the same materials, but you just lose tons of storage just because you wanted a shape more pleasing than a square. My low level HV was basically using the container extension blocks as its 'hull' of sorts, and it just lost half its storage capacity for nothing.
     
    #9
    xerxes86 likes this.
  10. geostar1024

    geostar1024 Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2016
    Messages:
    5,338
    Likes Received:
    7,375
    Is the mass not adjusted for partial modular container blocks? If not, that definitely needs to happen.

    If partial blocks used proportionally less material, wouldn't that pretty much fix things?
     
    #10
    Ravis likes this.
  11. Na_Palm

    Na_Palm Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2017
    Messages:
    133
    Likes Received:
    725
    If i get the game internals right from my experience, they would need to change the whole building system.

    Now we have:
    - build the needed amounts blocks (build cost is consumed)
    - select block shape and place it (HP and Volume/weight is calculated)

    to something like:
    - use virtual blocks (no costs, no object at this point)
    - save BP (so HP, Volume/weight and Costs can be calculated)
    - then build the real object (HV,SV,CV,BA) via a factory (build cost is consumed)

    even possible would be to:
    - place a constructor on ground
    - stack it with rawmaterial
    - then place your virtual blocks in a build area
    - after placing that virtual block the constructor begins to build and place the real think

    This is from my point of view the needed change to get it right...
     
    #11
  12. The Tactician[ Λ ]

    The Tactician[ Λ ] Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2017
    Messages:
    1,273
    Likes Received:
    3,495
    do to this new pointless, sneaky, usless HP change 90% of my builds are pointless POIs and drones are way to strong, think its time i stray away from the game
     
    #12
    xerxes86 likes this.
  13. Frigidman

    Frigidman Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2016
    Messages:
    6,112
    Likes Received:
    9,271
    Uhhh. No you kind of went off in the wrong direction. Why would there need to be a factory, or a constructor and virtual whatevers nearby?

    The change would be to something like:
    - Build in the constructor "Block Material" instead of "Whole Blocks" *.
    - Grab stack of "Block Material", wander to ship/ba
    - Right click to choose a shape, each shape uses X number of material
    - Place shape, and X number of material is reduced from the stack

    * For example instead of using X steel plates makes 1 Whole Steel Block, it would end up where using X steel plates would make 64 material to place from.
     
    #13
  14. Frigidman

    Frigidman Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2016
    Messages:
    6,112
    Likes Received:
    9,271
    Again? You ping pong so much with rage quits... I'm surprised you are STILL here. Not to be coldhearted or anything.
     
    #14
    Sofianinho likes this.
  15. The Tactician[ Λ ]

    The Tactician[ Λ ] Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2017
    Messages:
    1,273
    Likes Received:
    3,495
    fyi this is my first rage quit, i took a break last time do to real life issues

    p.s. stop being mean to me and maybe
     
    #15
  16. Na_Palm

    Na_Palm Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2017
    Messages:
    133
    Likes Received:
    725
    Your point no. 3 "- Right click to choose a shape, each shape uses X number of material" is essentially what i called virtual blocks...
    So we are almost on the same side ;)

    That factory idea can also be anything from items in backpack, a placed constructor to whatever the devs may have in mind there.

    And as i wrote, only my point of view here. From over 20 years in modding experience with varios game engines, but nontheless a shot in the blue from my point..
     
    #16
  17. Frigidman

    Frigidman Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2016
    Messages:
    6,112
    Likes Received:
    9,271
    It just seemed like an unnecessary stretch of game-design complexity to virtually build something, then have to throw all your resources into some device which builds what you just built. Almost like forcing people to use that crappy factory system ;)

    Well if you want to throw needless credentials around... I could toss out that I've been doing things and working for game companies since before Bungie was Bungie, and even built things for them too. But, it has no bearing on this game's mechanics either ;)
     
    #17
    Na_Palm likes this.
  18. Na_Palm

    Na_Palm Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2017
    Messages:
    133
    Likes Received:
    725
    good that we are in alpha then and it is only a place holder.

    hehe, nice to meet you!;)
     
    #18
    Frigidman likes this.
  19. Frigidman

    Frigidman Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2016
    Messages:
    6,112
    Likes Received:
    9,271
    Amen to that!

    Now... what were we talking about here? Hit Points! Personally, I think its a move in the right direction, and I hope they keep it this way. I see nothing wrong with it, or the mass, being determined by the shape of a shape.
     
    #19
    Na_Palm likes this.
  20. Trash_Candicoot

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2019
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    3
    I like the new system, but the values need fixing. i.e. shutter windows have more hit points (~2.5x) than combat steel block of equal volume (Wall). By that logic, a full block sized shutter window would have 1000 hit points. Ideally, a directionally-biased proportional gradient for HP values would be implemented, i.e., the flat side of a "Wall" Combat steel block would have 62 HP, whereas the thin side would have 400 HP for example (Same as full block in any direction).
     
    #20
    cp6891 and stanley bourdon like this.

Share This Page