Realistic Inventory Space Discussion BALANCE

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by VISION305, May 19, 2017.

  1. VISION305

    VISION305 Captain

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    There seems to be enough discussion going around on the topic of realistic inventory space. The goal is to keep the inventory management grind low, while increasing immersion. Let's hear your ideas.
     
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  2. Ballard

    Ballard Captain

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    I freely admit that it is quite unrealistic that I can walk around with 20,000 ingots of iron in my pocket. I concede the point that no single person could carry all the crap I wander around with all the time. BUT WAIT!

    Ballard traveled back into one of his old D&D games and found a bag of holding. Of course to keep in in theme he altered it to be a very high tech anti grav carrier, with a collapsible... (Please insert a page of Star Trek like techno babble here).

    Folks, I know we should probably have some sort of weight limit, ala Elder Scrolls games, or perhaps an extremely limited bag set like WOW. My vote is that we keep it fun, and leave it alone. I'm fine with it as it is. I do not want to waste 30% of my gaming time running back and forth to clear my inventory.

    EDIT: And thank you Vision for opening this discussion.
     
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  3. geostar1024

    geostar1024 Rear Admiral

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    For the sake of reasonable gameplay, finished blocks and devices should be exempt from any mass/volume limits for player inventories (they should certainly count toward ship mass when in ship storage containers, though). Otherwise the building aspect slows down way too much (while I applaud Space Engineers for their realistic inventory model, building with it is awful and slow).

    Clearly, handheld weapons/tools, ammo, food, oxygen, and other consumables should have mass in any inventory.

    I think the remaining question is how to handle ores, ingots, and components. Personally, I think these should all have mass in a player's inventory (which would probably slow down looting in some cases, but, on the other hand, would force you to prioritize what you take).

    The effect of inventory mass on a player should be to progressively decrease a player's run speed, and above the mass limit, the player would be unable to sprint (the stamina bar would drain due to being over-encumbered), but still move at a slow plod.
     
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  4. geostar1024

    geostar1024 Rear Admiral

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    I know what you mean, and we definitely should avoid an implementation that slows down the game a lot. On the flip side, I feel like some kind of inventory mass limit is needed in a game that bills itself as being about survival.
     
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  5. VISION305

    VISION305 Captain

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    The goal is to brainstorm on a way to make it more immersive without sacrificing the fun and easy game play. I am against increasing grind in any way shape or form as well.

    For example, if weapons did way more damage, then you would not need to carry around 5 million rounds of 50 caliber pistol rounds with you.
     
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  6. Ballard

    Ballard Captain

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    I am listening, and my mind is open (fairly blank as well).

    I very much like how the HV harvest box eases this issue quite a bit. Considering how we almost immediately build some sort of vehicle, perhaps the only thing we need is a very basic starter rig, like the motor bike, that can carry some stuff?

    I could live with a restricted personal inventory if I was able to carry stuff easily in some sort of minor vehicle.
     
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  7. geostar1024

    geostar1024 Rear Admiral

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    Yes, this sort of thing would make the motorbike substantially more useful (it could be as simple as increasing your inventory's mass limit). Alternately, one could have a cargo drone with limited inventory squares, but a very high mass limit (so it could carry a stack of Promethium Ore (that should have a mass of ~100+ tons) at normal speed, for example). The limitation would be that the cargo drone wouldn't be good for much beyond carrying items, and if destroyed would drop whatever it was carrying. It'd be the equivalent of Tensor's Floating Disk from D&D :).
     
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  8. VISION305

    VISION305 Captain

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    If I had a crack at the code, I would try to make a system where Drones and vehicles did the heavy lifting. It would be a pretty large tweak to the game as we know it though. For example, no longer would you find blocks in the loot. Salvaging would be focused on finding a particular part rather than gathering everything you could find. Mining would require vehicles and you could not carry the ores. Those would get transferred from your vehicle into your base. The base would construct blocks for you as you lay down "plan blocks" which would look like holograms. The blocks would materialize over a short time based on either drones doing the work, or microscopic invisible nano bots doing the work. You could only build blocks within an area set by the factory block that builds them for you.
    A similar process would happen with blueprints.

    In essence the player never carries blocks or ores, or ingots. The base does. The player only sets holograms of the blocks which get filled by the base.
    Combine that with a large increase to the effectiveness of inventory items like weapon damage, medic packs, food, oxygen. Then you can carry much less and still yield the same results.
     
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  9. geostar1024

    geostar1024 Rear Admiral

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    Sounds great, and fits the tech level of the Empyrion universe. Given we have ore-teleporting technology (and actual teleporters), a modification of that to do building without needing materials to pass through the player's inventory would be a very interesting and novel building system. And it neatly solves the ship repair issue as well.
     
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  10. draqsko

    draqsko Commander

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    Copy-pasta part of my reply in the last thread where this started:

    Maybe a better option would be a building inventory for materials, components and blocks and a useable item inventory for stuff like food, oxygen, ammo, etc. Heck you could even refine it further and limit how much of each you could carry, say 3 stacks of ammo, 1 stack of food, and 6 stacks of 02 tanks (although just increasing stack limit and letting only one stack allowed is probably better). Now your supplies are separated out from your building materials and each can be balanced separately.

    So two separate inventories, one for building, one for supplies. Perhaps even a third one for materials. So completed blocks go in one tab (call it building), materials in another, and supplies in a third, then you can balance everything independently. For example it would make sense to make the building tab basically be infinite in size, while imposing mass limits on materials and volume limits on supplies.
     
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  11. Frankyln

    Frankyln Rear Admiral

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    I liked the direction SE went where you build the frame and slowly construct it at the site.

    For this system I would suggest a hybrid system.

    There should be some sort of weapon/gear load out option for HV/SV/CV/BA/Players

    A player should halve to choose his long gun or multi tool, side arm, ammo and meds while in combat.
    my post on this details the player option

    A BA/CV/HV/SV would have to fill there Ammo/Fuel/Clips/rockets/etc..

    While in Combat thats all you have available.
    While outside combat the could be either manually or automatically refilled. (tech enhancement or freebies)

    Option: Cargo Access while in Combat
    To simulate your accessing you non combat inventory you could add a delay to access or transfer supplies to your load out.
    for example i run out of clips but have more in my back pack. I can access the load out screen but its delayed, a few seconds.
    This represents me stopping opening my pack rummaging for some clips and adding them to my ammo pocket.
    This may be difficult if your currently under fire.
    This Delay option could work on ships as well, but in this case he delay in at reloading the ammo/fuel tanks. This represents a crew automated system or drones accessing the cargo supplies and filling the appropriate container.​

    Thoughts on Cargo
    It should be Volume based.
    The would mean a big difference on how ships are built.
    A scout would have way less cargo than a cargo hauler.
    Mass of cargo would be used for physic calculations
    Thoughts On Player Inventory
    I dislike how players can carry an entire base of component/blocks in there back pack.
    As this is how construction is implemented in this game there no point arguing that..
    I am not sure there an viable solution.
    My Best Suggestion
    limit personal Inventory to meds/ammo/small tools.
    Instead they have a stock pile on the map
    This would be a very unsecured system vs cargo containers.
    When building your personal drone would actually fly to the stock pile collect the blocks and fly back to build with.
    Later on that same drone could fly to cargo container, This means distance from source becomes a factor
    This would go both ways a if you collect blocks/components the drone will deposit them at the nearest Stockpile/Cargo container.
    Lastly while in transit the player drone is unavailable for other duties.
    Replace the factory with Something Physical (This is the worst form of inventory)
    I start to run before i am drawn and quartered

    Think, Prepare, Survive
     
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    Last edited: May 19, 2017
  12. VISION305

    VISION305 Captain

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    all of these are good ideas. I am fine with keeping things as they are but if they ever do decide to change it then I hope this thread can serve a purpose.
     
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  13. Sacksquatch

    Sacksquatch Captain

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    We would need conveyors or something like it to move inventory around. The last time I brought anything like that up, people lit torches and found out where I lived.
     
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  14. Frankyln

    Frankyln Rear Admiral

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    So true. You use the word 'conveyor' and people automatically envision SE big clunky, ship design braking blocks.
     
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  15. geostar1024

    geostar1024 Rear Admiral

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    I've always thought that all Empyrion blocks have a conveyor system built into them (stands to reason since they're mostly empty space); it also seems reasonable given the overall tech level. All we need is an interface to configure resource flows between the various inventories present in a structure. Personally, I'd love to see that handled in a general way via Signal Logic, but a dedicated Logistics device might not be a bad idea either.

    Armed with such a mechanic, construction could be done via a factory device (as terrain placeable, for initially (and slowly) building a small structure/ship, and also as block, for doing repairs and upgrades in addition to building from scratch). Resources could be ferried using drones as @VISION305 and @Frankyln have suggested.

    Certainly, having ship inventories count toward the mass of the ship would have a big and useful impact on combat and ship design; in my mind, it's one of the critical things missing (aside from proper moment of inertia calculations :p).
     
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  16. oojimaflip

    oojimaflip Captain

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  17. Sacksquatch

    Sacksquatch Captain

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    You never know, it seems like peoples opinions have been shifting around.

    Realistically I don't see Eleon changing the way space works, as far as making space have distance and travel time. So I'm not sure how much logistical goodness we could get out of something like this. You guys have come up with some good ideas that would work with the current system, so that's a plus.

    The biggest lament I have with this game is that there aren't a whole lot of purpose built vehicles. SE has ruined me with it's ability to give me an idea and let me figure out how to make it happen. Any system that adds to purposeful building is a win in my book. So to tie this back in so it doesn't seem off topic: anything that provides an engineering challenge to build a better hauler, or drone, I'd love it. :D
     
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    Last edited: May 19, 2017
  18. Ballard

    Ballard Captain

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    If you read this thread there is a definite aura of progression being enhanced in some of it. A level 1 starter will only be able to build the bike, then just carry enough stuff to be reasonably able to build that first base, and large constructor. Getting that done is a major milestone. I will stew on this a while. Generally speaking I agree with @Sacksquatch , for now. It ain't broke, and so much else is more important.
     
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  19. geostar1024

    geostar1024 Rear Admiral

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    Agreed. I'd argue that a considerable part of the problem is that thrusters are overpowered, so a ship's movement abilities are never something that have to be sacrificed to gain performance in some other metric. Ditto weapons (in that they consume next to no power and don't add much mass). And if inventories have mass, ship designs will likely see substantial changes from that alone.
     
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  20. draqsko

    draqsko Commander

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    If that was true, Survivorman wouldn't have a series on you.
     
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