Starting tool rebalence/multi-tool upgrade?

Discussion in 'Experimental Features Discussion' started by Kronoss, Nov 6, 2019.

  1. Kronoss

    Kronoss Captain

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    I would like a re-balance of the hand tools please. I know what the starting "survival tool" was intended for but since the removal of the stamina requirement it is a little too easy for many people. I would like the old tier 1 tools back. The tier 1 drill, saw, and deconstruction tool(new). They should be able to be constructed in your personal constructor along with bio fuel. They should not be very efficient, and you should have to pick up the items they produce.

    Tier 2 tools should require their own special charge packs and be a big upgrade in performance. The new tier 2 saw should be greatly more effective as a wood cutter and a formidable melee weapon to boot. Maybe even better then the shotgun in CQC. One or two hit could take a Zirax down if you got close enough...

    The starting "survival tool" should now be an even higher unlock and be slightly less effective then the tier 2 tools. It's new benefit would be that it can do "almost everything" as good as the tier 2 tools but "in one tool" and require "only one" type of charge pack. It would also retain its defensive mode with a little more power. The new survival-tool modes would be saw, drill, repair, salvage, and better defensive mode.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
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  2. sillyrobot

    sillyrobot Captain

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    The survival tools is pretty overpowered. Even just at mining: it's faster than the old T1, it collects the ore which the T1 didn't, and it is costless. Combat-wise it is at least as good if not better than the pistol and is costless. It's also a costless salvage tool.
     
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  3. Kronoss

    Kronoss Captain

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    Yea I essentially want to make it a T3 unlock(late game survival tool). It would be like the "epic drill" or "epic armor". This would make it useful when raiding and you get shot down in enemy territory. less space in you inventory, so you can get back to base by "hoofing it".
     
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  4. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    How many ?
     
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  5. Kronoss

    Kronoss Captain

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    all of them I guess....;p the survival tool is a bit too easy for many people. This way instead of just scraping the idea it could be useful in the late/end game. It will be a "jack of almost all trades", and therefor not having you carrying a drill, multi tool, spare weapon, or even a saw. none of the "charge packs" that they require just one for them all. I guess they could just make the "charge packs" one item instead of a drill pack, multi tool pack, and bio fuel for the chain saw. The tool would be "just good enough" to carry on you everywhere, but save you a lot of space.
     
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  6. Albert

    Albert Lieutenant

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    I don't really want the old T1 drill back. The current survival tool just needs some tweaks and it would be fine. Making it require biofuel would be a huge start. Would also be nice if there was a different fuel for defense mode that the game gives you 1 to start with, but then needs to be crafted similar to the fuel packs for drills or muli tools. Just make it red, instead of blue or green, and call it something else lol

    One thing is for sure, they need to better balance weapons with it too, because atm I never build a pistol because the survival tool is exponentially better. But honestly, the survival tool is just one of the many things that needs looked at; the entire game is way to trivial. Adjusting the survival tool, won't change much, aside from making those trivial tasks take longer. Which doesn't make the game more fun, just more of a grind. As it stands I rarely ever use it for disassembling anyways. Only a starting weapon/drill
     
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  7. geostar1024

    geostar1024 Rear Admiral

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    And then how would you power it before you obtained a portable constructor to make the bofuel in? The whole point of the survival tool is to be a low-power booststrapping tool that you stop using once you can build more effective tooks.
     
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  8. Ambaire

    Ambaire Captain

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    With the current survival tool and suit/survival constructor, one can crash land anywhere on a planet with iron/copper/silicon rocks and fiber plants or trees nearby and bootstrap to pretty much anything.

    @Albert @Kronoss You need to think about if your proposed revamps would still allow the above. What if a player can't find fiber plants but does have trees? Do you propose the suit constructor also craft fiber to biofuel? What about wood to fiber? At what point do you stop adding the survival constructor features to the suit constructor?

    And for that matter, how is this suit constructor integrated into the light jumpsuit that's clearly visible in third person?
     
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  9. Albert

    Albert Lieutenant

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    Part of surviving, is utilizing what you have to accomplish the goals you need. Prioritize things. If you start out with 3 cans of biofuel, don't mine out one node of a single resource. Get a little of multiple things you may need. Harvest what you NEED until you can make your portable constructor, which will then allow you to craft fuel, and don't waste all the fuel disassembling everthing in site.
     
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  10. krazzykid2006

    krazzykid2006 Rear Admiral

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    We do still have a suit constructor. If the devs wanted to they could easily add a scroll bar to the suit constructor so that it can hold more crafting templates. They could then add a biofuel template to suit constructor and require the survival tool to run on biofuel.
    It's one of the things I proposed to do away with the unlimited ammo of the survival tool. For whatever reason that idea wasn't more popular. It seems like a perfect solution to the unlimited ammo issue to me.

    Even better would be a proper suit power system and the survival tool could run on the suit power.
    Then we could fix some other issues.
     
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  11. Albert

    Albert Lieutenant

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    That's a great idea, even if it was something similar to the emergency o2. Suits could craft emergency fuel, which would take either more fibers for the same amount, (less efficient processing than a constructor), or use a proper suit power system, which would be a really cool feature.
     
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  12. geostar1024

    geostar1024 Rear Admiral

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    Yep, that would be the best approach, all around. Handheld energy weapons could also run off of suit power.
     
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  13. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    Obviously it was not the "perfect solution" for them, maybe because players on the forum don't understand the value of these "reasons".

    Players here don't care much about the new players, and give feedback based on their selfish perception of the game needs. I don't see much "fun" in all these proposals to make the start more difficult, and this alone shows a disconnect between why players pretend they play a game and reality.
     
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  14. Ambaire

    Ambaire Captain

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    Yeah... I've managed a bit less than a 1 hour 'speedrun' to level 6 and a fully loaded SV at that level, on full hard difficulty with optional stuff enabled. Game's actually gotten boring for me since I have no creativity and can't design stuff that looks good for anything.

    My definition of 'hard/challenging' versus a new player's definition are probably lightyears apart.

    Like for example my primary priority is just to chain craft survival constructors and have each one crafting a specific thing nearly continuously, fed by my ravenous consumption of every ore rock within a kilometer of the starting crashed hut thing, while shotgun killing every living thing I see. Skip night with all those constructors making stuff, spend next day frantically gathering/killing, etc.

    I need to just take it easy for once and enjoy life or something.
     
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  15. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    Lol...

    That's about the perfect illustration of the problem, yes.

    There was a new player asking lots of questions recently in the General Discussion's thread. It was obvious that the amount of knowledge an average player has here on the forum (regulars) is enormous compared to that player, just seeing how unintuitive interfaces and general game play are in some aspects. The whole "crafting" chain of events, priorities, recipes and the various illnesses/ bad conditions, O2 and radiations and the suit/ armor, mining, these are all things we don't even think about when playing now. But a new player is totally lost and sees no fun if he can't accomplish even the basic tasks starting a new game, even with the help of a tutorial.

    Players had problems understanding why their stamina was depleting so rapidly when we had the survival tool v1. Now tying this tool to the complex crafting chain to make biofuel after gathering the appropriate plants in sufficient quantity (after understanding how to manage heat/ cold and hunger, if not attacked by critters, etc) would bring us back to square 1 of the problem.

    Players need some time to "enjoy" the game, move around without feeling pushed by an agenda they have no clue about. They need that basic "weapon/ tool" to test their surroundings before diving into the other more complex things.
     
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  16. Albert

    Albert Lieutenant

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    Lol I do care about new player experience, a lot actually. And the most complicated thing about the game right now is trying to figure out what anything does and how everything works. Not the survival aspect.

    I've gotten 4 real life friends to buy the game, and none of them play it anymore because they can't figure out how anything works without me explaining it step by step. The survival part is easy for them, navigating all the menus and logistics is what drove them away.

    This is a survival/building game. In the survival game mode, people want the initial challenge of struggling to survive, then have a steady show of progression to be able to eventually explore the universe. Not saying make the game horrendously hard, but it needs to have some sort of challenge.
     
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  17. Ambaire

    Ambaire Captain

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    @Kassonnade Yeah, and that's not even taking into account how unintuitive the temperature system is. The starting area is sometimes guaranteed to be around 18-23C (but sometimes the area around the hut is 10C idk why), but then it just drops to 10C or less in some areas completely randomly, or rises above 35C in a different area with no sign of why it should be that hot. And then if I spend time in a 15-35C area for half a second, my body temp instantly returns to normal. Or if I stand in a half block on the edge of my base, it's randomly 'fine' compared to half a meter away in the same open area...

    The planetary temperature system needs a radical overhaul. A forest on the equator at mid day should not be freezing... and temperatures should gradually change as one moves from area to area, not instant 10C+ rising/falling.

    Back when I was still doing the droppod start (10.5, a couple weeks ago or so), the open plains would be fine but venture anywhere near the Grove biomes and instant drop to 8C or less. why do the devs think this is okay
     
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  18. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    From what you wrote, there IS a challenge : complexity ! Why add another on top of it at the very start ?

    That is also a problem stemming from trying to hit too many birds with one bullet. How do you "cap" that "new game survival" once players are able to navigate efficiently through the "complexity" problem ? And also that huge difference after a few hours when players can build their first real vehicle and kill every critter in sight, explore the whole planet and even tackle the advanced Alien factions in their own forts. That difference is hard to reconciliate with a very 'lean" start after just a few hours of play, or just 3 -4 days of "game" time.

    And I just read what Ambaire wrote regarding temperature and biomes. From the day 1 of these new features, nobody found intuitive that at the bottom of a small terrain bump temperature is comfortable, and a few steps higher and the player is in a potentially deadly situation with just a few degrees apart.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
  19. Ambaire

    Ambaire Captain

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    I also still shamelessly take advantage of the sprint for half a second then jump movement combo which lets me run rings around every predator/prey in the game, at least the ones that don't cheat with homing shots. Earlier today I took on a pack of 12 raptors in the savanna biome and completely destroyed them with a shotgun, with no armor or healing items.

    Forest spiders? unless I let them sneak up on me while I'm distracted, they're mindless prey. Kill one, the others run away so I run them down and kill while the survivors flee more.

    But it's impossible to balance this stuff for vets while also giving newbies a chance, unless the difficulty options actually made their AI smarter and react faster. We need more difficulty options than just 'easy/normal/hard'.
     
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  20. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    This reminds me of another game vs "new, unsuspecting and enthusiastic players"...

     
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