Starting tool rebalence/multi-tool upgrade?

Discussion in 'Experimental Features Discussion' started by Kronoss, Nov 6, 2019.

  1. Albert

    Albert Lieutenant

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    Same lol
     
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  2. StyleBBQ

    StyleBBQ Captain

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    I think they need to maintain the ability to bootstrap up with just the clothes on your back. In Vanilla.
    But would also like to see 'switches' added so modders/scenarios could disable that; forcing players to conserve starting gear or fail.
    And I'd like to see everything that uses energy require energy. Minimal built-in Solar power makes sense, but shouldn't be so powerful.

    Plus I'd be interested in seeing the Escape Pod (EP) leveraged at the start.
    And I'm guessing Eleon would as well since it doesn't disappear from the playfield...?
    Could be a re-charge station for the Survival Tool (ST). Possibly also act as a Portable Constructor (PC) template wise.
    Have it's internal battery store enough for say 20 ST re-charges.
    Along the way the EP's solar is recharging at a rate to provide 1~2 ST recharges per day.
    Have 1 ST re-charge equate to just a few minutes of run-time for the constructor.

    Would like to see a basic 'suit' power system, but until that's in place could go with a basic 'energy charge' item (and do away with Biofuel), that could be made from plants. Would power the Survival Tool, and later the suit, plus power a T2 version of the ST that maybe doesn't have a defense mode, but would have new 'Recover Player Owned Blocks' and a 'Flatten Ground' modes.

    The basic 'energy charge' items could act as fuel for BA/CV/SV/HVs, O2 gen, water gen, etc., like Biofuel, as well as a speed boost for the Portable Constructor. The PC would still work without the energy charges but would be quite slow. Could also act as a re-charge station for both T1 & T2 Survival Tools. So for worst case, all out of charges but have a PC & a ST, you could charge up a ST, cut down a tree and make more energy charges.
    And worst worst case, no PC, no charges and now an empty ST, you'd have to go back to the Escape Pod to charge up the Survival Tool.

    The new 'energy charge' items would be very similar to existing Biofuel mechanic, slow to make from Plant Fiber, little capacity compared to later Promethium based charges/cells.
    But they would reduce the, seeming, oddness of a sci-fi game using liquid fuel. To get rid of the 'made from plants' bit would require something like a 'solar tarp' that you'd have to spread out, and with the in-game solar efficiencies (which are already pushing things) that wouldn't give much juice.
    Other option is to just go with the solar parts and either not make Promethium quite so difficult to find on starter planets, or add a different mid-level power source.
     
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  3. casta_03

    casta_03 Captain

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    here I thought it was just me
     
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  4. imlarry425

    imlarry425 Commander

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    Mercator projection .. it's an evil side effect of a Cartesian view of the world and that poor b*stard was stuck in bed staring at the ceiling tiles. Buckminster Fuller suggested using geodesic projections that distribute the distortion across the whole map. In this case it's the same problem in reverse since the real world is flat and we want to project it as a sphere.

    https://bigthink.com/strange-maps/compare-true-size-of-countries (love Dr. Flox in the West Wing clip)
     
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  5. Albert

    Albert Lieutenant

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    I like the idea of having different mid level power sources. It would be cool to have several ways to make bases have power, such as wind turbine, or geothermal for hotter planets. Multiple styles of generators would be cool too.
     
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  6. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    Lol... and same for wood when not on flat grounds. Rocks tend to roll downhill and we have to chase them like they were made of styrofoam...

    No problem. It's fun to discuss openly of Empyrion without feeling we're going to get grounded for drifting away from a topic... sometimes...

    For scenario builders, having only the pod and not giving the tent to players can force them to stay around the pod until they craft the tent...

    As for power requirements for the survival tool, I gave an example why it was not a good idea (new players stuck in a hole after hours of play). Even with the previous stamina-depletion system, the tool was unefficient to be used to get out of a hole before starvation.

    We could be able to make basics like melee stick & stone weapons and tools, and fire/ torches...
     
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  7. casta_03

    casta_03 Captain

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    But I already played ARK.

    & now I have a new theory- the suit constructor & survival tool are powered by poop.
     
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  8. Liang

    Liang Commander

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    Actually a sludge to power system is realistic as is dry dung fuel. Though I doubt they plan to get so deep into animal behavior that random poops are going to be placed into the game ala ARK.

    Hydro and wind may be easier for them to implement and a small generator for both can be made into an early item limited power source for say, battery charges for your suit.
     
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  9. RazzleWin

    RazzleWin Captain

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    Oh no! Not Poop again! Man must have a hidden fetish for poop. Yet another game that wants us to pick up poop. I thought having to pick up petrified poop in LOTRO was bad enough. Do you guys know how long it takes to get poop out of your suit glove? I would love to know. I'm still trying to get it out of the cracks between my finger joints in NMS. I burnt my leather gloves in LOTRO.
    :eek::D
     
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  10. Liang

    Liang Commander

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    WoW has several also, they made fun of how adventurers will pick up anything for a reward...
     
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  11. StyleBBQ

    StyleBBQ Captain

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    Dang it. Yeah. That's a real problem. While I'm -very- tempted to just quote Murphy's 13th Law, it would be a bad design to so easily trap new players.

    How about really cutting back the drilling effectiveness of the Survival Tool T1 when it _doesn't_ have a charge?
    Say only 25% as effective? So a player could always dig out of a hole, fast enough to not starve, but no one would ever willingly use a ST without a charge?

    And since we've wandered over into other things... I'd -really- like to be able to craft a basic breathing mask that could take the small O2 bottles in the portable constructor. So very early game, before you have an Armor Locker to put on the light suit, you could dive in the lakes for seaweed etc.
     
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  12. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    Then why use a charge at all ? Players will just use it without charges and take more time. Then I see them coming here asking for a buff.

    These cosmetic/ balance demands never end. And whichever way the devs make it, players always complain. AT some point the have to decide in the best interest of all, which is (in my opinion) to take care of new players and allow the experienced players to fix whatever themselves with a config file.

    And even then players will complain because they don't like editing files. This is like caring for exotic pets...
     
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  13. RazzleWin

    RazzleWin Captain

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    Nope nothing like caring for exotic pets. My parrots were easy. A clean cage, water and seeds and a few whole peanuts to gnaw on. Even a few greens. My daughter's snakes were easy too. Few mice and a warm cage is all they needed with a little bit of water. Her spiders were just as easy, a few crickets and a warm place.
    People are much harder to please :D
     
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  14. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    My only experience was with a small parrot found walking on the sidewalk near my house... Got him a cage and food, was ok for a while, then he snapped my daughter's upper lip when she was looking at him... He went back on the street.
     
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  15. geostar1024

    geostar1024 Rear Admiral

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    It's worth noting that this wasn't a problem before the T1 drill was taken away and terrain deformation was merged into the survival tool; you simply couldn't dig yourself into a hole.

    Also, the recommended average daily food intake of 2000 kcal works out to 2.3 fuel, so even with losses, that in principle should provide quite a bit of stamina/food-based drilling; it just wasn't balanced very well (as usual).
     
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  16. Kronoss

    Kronoss Captain

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    My intention was not to make it "extremely" difficult for new players. I just wanted to be able to make bio fuel in the suit from fiber. You could up the starting quantity of bio fuel so that people would be less likely to make a "mistake". The old tutorial system of "make this" then "that" was pretty good, I don't know why they got rid of it. If the T1 tools worked "reasonably well" but the tier 2 tools worked "much better" then there is a natural seance of "progression". Right now the survival tool works so well there is no need to get the T2 drill, use the hand gun, or make a saw(the survival tool works faster and even picks up the wood).

    An additional progression would be if you could combine the better tools into one survival tool "later in the game" so that you have less to worry about. I would even be happy if just a "T2 survival tool" was added. You could make it by smashing all the other T2 tools together.....
     
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  17. Kronoss

    Kronoss Captain

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    Dig holes with drone better... you no fall in hole....;p After returning from a year I forgot to use the drone.... lol. My brother never uses the T2 drill now, why waste fuel....?
     
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  18. StyleBBQ

    StyleBBQ Captain

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    @Kassonnade , as usual, good points :) except for the "why use a charge" bit; that I'll agree to disagree about :) If the ST was even a bit less effective than the old T1 Mechanical Drill without a charge, but around ~60-75% of what it is now with a charge, that'd still be at least twice as fast I'd guess. And that kind of difference in mining would definately keep me making charges, and I'd still want to upgrade to the "real" tool/s.

    One way or the other I do think Eleon should take another look at how new players may react to not being able to recover whole blocks that they built, & possibly just had an 'oopsie, didn't mean for that to go there', much less working on their first ship build.

    Plus T1 MultiTools are becoming like a parody EGS meme.. they seem to multiply like rabbits and wind up everywhere..

    By the by; Eleon please take a look at the underwater plant coverage; it's so tall and dense it's virtually impossible to find the Promethium rocks. Can still spot the Pentaxid ones ok, but sheesh, good luck finding Prom under water now a days :( & if you are very very lucky and find one, then chip away at it's 1,000 HPs at 5-6 hps a shot with the ST, when you do finally break it, the ore will disapear into the growth never to be found.
     
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  19. krazzykid2006

    krazzykid2006 Rear Admiral

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    I have never understood this.
    "Oh, you weren't fortunate to land directly next to some promethium? Well now you must be punished for using the only tool provided to you and only get 33% of your materials back!"

    I feel this is extra punishing to new players now that we have these new flight mechanics and CPU.
    With the new flight mechanics it's almost an absolute necessity to be able to pick up intact blocks and move them, such as the need to reposition thrusters over and over until the ship actually turns in all directions.

    I have built tons of ships with the new flight mechanics where everything is perfectly symmetrical but it will only turn left but not right without a RCS, or it can turn down but not up, or sometimes it won't roll with q and e at all. Sometimes if I move my mouse at an angle it will kind of turn all directions, but not always. Surely I'm not the only one noticing such things now?

    Repositioning the thrusters is unavoidable now since there is no rhyme or reason on what will and what won't work. Trial and error is your only choice.
    This means losing 66% of that thruster every single time you have to reposition it. Awesome.

    All it really does is encourage people not to build (vessels) at all early game or to only use blueprints, IMO.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
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  20. casta_03

    casta_03 Captain

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    Called it.
    https://empyriononline.com/threads/...ers-how-does-it-work.90876/page-5#post-370461
     
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