The flaw in Empyrion (and similar games) ship building

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by TrashMan, Jul 9, 2018.

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  1. TrashMan

    TrashMan Lieutenant

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    It's that it's quite frankly too simplified. No interesting compromises or design decision to be made.

    Ammo storage? Magazine placement? Inconsequential - not only can you store 50000 car-sized shells in a 1x1 block box, but all turrets can magically draw from any storage in your ship. The ammo box is also not voitale.
    Turrets are something that is simply glued onto an armor hull, without any structural weakneses or turret support under the armor. On real vehicles and ships, there's usually more to the turret than just the part that's sticking out of the hull:

    [​IMG]

    Added mass due to cargo? Ignored. You can load a ship with lead it won't matter at all to it's performance.

    Normally, when you design a vehicle in RL there are way more compromises and consequences. Weakespots, tradeoffs. Interesting weakneses and strengths that give more character. I want a ship that can fight longer - that means greater fuel and ammo storage - but all that extra weaight slows it down. I cna trim the armor down to compensate, but now my defense suffers... etc..


    Now, what I'm about to propose would be HIGHLY contraversial, since it would require all ship to be re-worked to be functional. HOWEVER, this is still alpha - you knew very well Building your ship that it might become unusable in the next version.

    Magazine - blocks used for realoading turrets that can only hold a reasonable ammount of ammo, depending on volume and size. So a CV 1x1 magazine would only be able to hold 1-2 stacks. Makes sense, given the size of a missile/bullet for a gun of that size.

    Personally if I were a dev, for turrets to be able to reload they would have to be connected to a MAGAZINE* block OR connected to a connector/ammo feed block (basically like an armor block, but since it has ammo feed tubes inside it is weaker, so it presents a structural weakness) that is connected to a magazine. So each turret could only draw ammo from magazine it's connected to (but you can connect mutiple turrets to the same magazine)
    Here's a shitty mockup of valid working turrets:

    [​IMG]


    This makes proper ship design a lot more interesting and also gives a lot more consequences, and conmpartment/sector damaage influences ship performance a lot more.

    This is of course, for weapons only, but a similar principle could be applied to engines.

    EDIT:

    NO, YOU WOULD *NOT* NEED TO MAKE 3-BLOCK THINCK WALLS. STOP MAKIGN THAT FALSE ARGUMENT ALREADY.
     
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    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018
  2. dichebach

    dichebach Captain

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    Sid Meier's has this saying, which I cannot find in quoted form, but it is something like: To make a simulation, throw out everything but the "fun parts."

    My take on this is: realism is only good in moderation.

    Sid's views on this are discussed here:
    https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/114402/Analysis_Sid_Meiers_Key_Design_Lessons.php

    My natural inclination is to agree with you: I LOVE excruciatingly detailed simulations.

    But those do not make for broadly appealing games, and in fact can even kill the niche appeal of a game.
     
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  3. geostar1024

    geostar1024 Rear Admiral

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    Armor blocks are mostly hollow, so there's plenty of room inside them for conveyors without compromising the integrity of the armor itself. Given that, it's easy to imagine a just-in-time ammo supply system being the norm. If you want to make things interesting, impose a rate limit on the movement of certain materials through the conveyor system. Then an ammo box can only send pieces (or mass) of ammo at a certain rate, which could cause weapons to run dry if too many are pulling on the same ammo box. This would naturally encourage multiple ammo boxes to be placed to keep up with the demand. Add a per-distance energy charge (as well as a standard per-item charge) to naturally encourage ammo boxes to be placed close to their consumers. Then you'd end up with a system that looked a lot like what's proposed here, but without having needed to make any specific rules for weapon systems.
     
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  4. MidasGunhazard

    MidasGunhazard Captain

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    I always prefer incentivising design rather than forcing it, so for stuff like this, I'd rather some kind of adjacency or proximity bonus (faster loading/fire rate if the ammo box is close/adjacent to the weapon, rather than requiring conveyor blocks for every gun.
     
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  5. dichebach

    dichebach Captain

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    Mods are another way to go!

    I started studying computer science right about the time this game was published and right from the start I thought "Boy, it sure would be neat to make mods for this game . . ."

    Having now studied a few different programming languages briefly, and spent a good 1.5 years focused on C++, I'm a well-progressed apprentice expecting to feel like a "journeyman" any time now . . . I don't now what facilities exist for modding this game, but making an "excruciatingly detailed simulation" (EDS!) mod sounds like fun! :p
     
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  6. ravien_ff

    ravien_ff Captain

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    One of empyrion's strong points is the creative freedom in base and ship design. Physical conveyors require you to build your floors and walls 3 blocks thick and that greatly hampers creative freedom.
     
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  7. The Hashtronaut

    The Hashtronaut Commander

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    Thats whats wrong with this game.....They dont want us to Make it better.....
    download the Free Unity program..you can Crack it with that....Have fun

    im working on a Masterpiece :)
     
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  8. The Hashtronaut

    The Hashtronaut Commander

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    Meh....I think the worst problems with this game is
    1: The control panel button
    2:The way Spawning BP work
    3:The loot tables are garbage (can't be edited)
    4:All the Stupid stuff people come up with on these forums,when the Obvious move is right in from of them
    5: SP/MP are built the Sameway as far as game play
     
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  9. geostar1024

    geostar1024 Rear Admiral

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    If the rate at which a given ammo box can supply ammo is fixed, then locating multiple ammo boxes (and spreading the ammo among them) near your weapons will increase the ammo feed rate to them. Absolute distance from an ammo box to a weapon shouldn't matter as far as the feed rate is concerned (all it would do is introduce a constant delay, but I'm also assuming that transit times are negligible); it should have an impact on the energy cost per unit ammo transferred though.

    Not if armor blocks can be made to act as conveyors (which they effectively are right now whenever you use the control panel to transfer something from your inventory into a remote cargo box or constructor). I would not want SE's conveyor system in Empyrion for exactly that reason.

    I'd say that this is a plus, actually. It means that SP and MP share the same ruleset, which is a good thing. Ideally, the only difference between SP and MP is that some of the other entities around your are carbon-based lifeforms rather than NPCs.
     
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  10. The Hashtronaut

    The Hashtronaut Commander

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    What has your Tent done for me lately?
     
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  11. geostar1024

    geostar1024 Rear Admiral

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    In MP, nothing. Skipping/accelerating time is one of the fundamental things that simply can't be done in MP. Time progression aside, do you have any other examples?
     
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  12. The Hashtronaut

    The Hashtronaut Commander

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    Nothing really other then the default game is easy and we can’t make it more challenging
    I pretty much covered the rest
     
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  13. geostar1024

    geostar1024 Rear Admiral

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    By tweaking config file values, you can substantially increase the difficulty (extra HP for mobs, less damage output for the player, more expensive recipes, longer construction times, less benefits from boosters, less food points from food, etc.).
     
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  14. May Rears

    May Rears Lieutenant

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    You can't do much about fire rate or volatile ammo containers (great idea) until blocks can be modded but if you want to simulate conveyors like SE has then build them into your ship with the "tube" blocks.
     
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  15. The Hashtronaut

    The Hashtronaut Commander

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    I love when I read stuff from other people that build like I do...
    It gives me hope
     
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  16. The Hashtronaut

    The Hashtronaut Commander

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    You can pretty much do all that with the built in slider in the options....
    I’m thinking way bigger and outside the box of a normal gamer....I like to dissect things :)

    I pretty much already started building new items for the game for my own stuff....
    Just holding on to it for when I can make it happen...all the way down to new UI layouts and stuff....
     
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  17. dichebach

    dichebach Captain

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    I thought Unity switched to a subscription basis . . . or was that Maya?
     
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  18. binhthuy71

    binhthuy71 Rear Admiral

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    Unity is still free for personal use. I have it on my machine. It's fun to play with although the idea of using it to mod a game is a bit like using a siege gun to kill a gnat. Using it to make a game is cool. You'd be surprised how much you can do without having to write any code.
     
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  19. TrashMan

    TrashMan Lieutenant

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    Fun is subjective. Personally, playing a shallow pool isn't fun for me.
    And sicne we're at it, could the ship creation itself be considered a "game" in any sense? Is it "fun"? No, not really. But it is Creative. So following Meier's logic, creation could be thrown out.
     
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  20. TrashMan

    TrashMan Lieutenant

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    Incorrect. The conveyor block is a block like any other and can be used in floors.

    Basically, think of an armor block as a slab of pure armor, and the conveyor block as an armor block that's partially hollow inside and stuffed with conduits/conveyor. That means that you would just need to replace some blocks in the wool/floor and a few more ammo boxes/magazines.

    To clarify - no one is asking for SE conveyor system. No. This is something far simlper. The game just checks if a turret is connected to a magazine, either directy or trough those (armored )connector blocks. If the link is broken, turret can't reload.
    Also, magazines can blow up, doing damage dependant on the amounf of ammo inside.


    That system is better than what we have now, but it still has one big flaw in that there is no actual connection. You cannot "cut" the line of supply - as long as there is a single block anywhere the turret will be supplied.
    Furthermore even if armor blocks were hollow, it would be a tiny hold for a few cables - certainly not large holoes required to transfer large shells/missiles. And thy are armor blocks, they shouldn't be hollow to begin with. And they are not, given that we have half-hollow block shapes that have less HP and mass as a result.
     
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    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
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