When will the turret AI stop shooting before it's done aiming?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Aetrion, Feb 15, 2021.

  1. Aetrion

    Aetrion Lieutenant

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    59
    The turret AI in this game fires whatever weapon its controlling the second it comes into range of an enemy, even if the turret itself is not pointed at that enemy yet. For most turrets this is a minor inconvenience, when one out of 100 bullets misses, but for things like artillery turrets this is a complete dealbreaker. The only big advantage of artillery is its massive alpha damage, but it's guaranteed to miss the first shot when you come into range, so the only way to get any useful shots out of the turret AI for these turrets is to move into range, miss, wait for the reload, and only then will you get a shot that is actually aimed at the enemy.

    This is clearly broken. The AI should wait until it has pointed the gun at the enemy to actually fire the shot. If that can't be done at least put firing on a slight delay for the artillery turret so that it at least has a chance to line itself up before it lets rip.
     
    #1
  2. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    May 13, 2017
    Messages:
    2,816
    Likes Received:
    4,111
    I did not experience this myself, especially not with the artillery : when moving in range it's already pointed at the target. If there are many targets around there's a risk that the AI will outperform our own limited perception (it sees everything, we see only what's in the FOV ).

    Add to this that if the ship can rotate faster than turrets, turrets can only do so much to adjust...
     
    #2
  3. Aetrion

    Aetrion Lieutenant

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    59
    I've encountered this with every turret I've ever built on any station, any ship, anywhere. When an enemy enters the range of the turret it fires completely regardless of whether or not the shot is lined up yet. This ruins artillery turrets in particular.

    It basically just seems to be that the AI for the turrets simply performs two separate functions:

    If the enemy is in range aim the turret at it.
    If the enemy is in range fire the weapon.

    It doesn't check if the aiming is done before shooting, so it always fires before it has aimed when an enemy first comes within range.

    This could basically be fixed by just making the radius at which the turret aims at things 20% larger than the radius at which the turret fires at things.
     
    #3
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2021
    xtended2l likes this.
  4. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    May 13, 2017
    Messages:
    2,816
    Likes Received:
    4,111
    The only task the turrets do before shooting is "find best target", which is "any". A base on a desert moon and a base on a temperate playfield are not the same, as one can have very few critters spawning around, and the other plenty, but the player does not see them. Same for ships : players "want" the turrets to shoot at X because that's what they see, but they can not exclude other targets because they can't see them at that moment.

    Trying to analyse turret behavior from the exterior is like reading minds. That can't be done, and this blurs the line between expected and bad turret behavior. Players don't see what the turrets are shooting at, because they can only look at 1 place at a time.

    So if encountering obvious problem because it's easy to see there are no other targets, and turrets systematically shoot in random directions, then that is worthy of a bug report.
     
    #4
  5. Aetrion

    Aetrion Lieutenant

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    59
    They fire into the sky while still trying to swivel toward the target they have picked is the problem.

    Simple test: Make a hovertank with an artillery turret, drive up to an enemy base. The second you cross the range threshold the gun fires, regardless of whether or not it is lined up. If you dip back out of range of enemy defenses to reload the artillery the same thing will happen again on your next push.
     
    #5
  6. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    May 13, 2017
    Messages:
    2,816
    Likes Received:
    4,111
    This does not exclude the possibility of other entities you don't see around the base, osr that the turret did not chose a proper "best target".

    A general statement on how frustrating turrets can appear to behave sometimes is a common thing on this forum. Real examples and tests that show the actual problem and exclude "false positives" are far less frequent, unfortunately.
     
    #6
  7. Aetrion

    Aetrion Lieutenant

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    59
    I'm not sure why you're so hung up on arguing that we must treat the problem as a mysterious unknown instead of putting forth the hypothesis that best fits all the evidence.

    The facts are:

    1. Turrets fire their first shot the instant a target comes into range.
    2. Turrets take a short time after a target comes into range to aim at the target.
    3. Because of this the first shot usually misses the target.

    You can literally observe this with base turrets when drones are approaching, the first shot is usually fired into the air.
     
    #7
    Cluascorp likes this.
  8. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    May 13, 2017
    Messages:
    2,816
    Likes Received:
    4,111
    The burden of proof is on the one making an affirmation. I'm telling you what you need to prove in order to establish that "turrets do X" and you tell me to test it, but it is on you to show us what you pretend is true. You're not talking about an exception here, but "all turrets, all the time, with all ships" so this should not be a problem to show in a video, for example.
     
    #8
  9. Aetrion

    Aetrion Lieutenant

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    59
    Right, when someone reports a bug in a game they must meet a burden of proof. After all, they aren't trying to help the devs improve the game, they are making a vile accusation that the game is not perfect, and should be made to defend their heretical views.

    If someone told you not to use a parachute because the ripcord is missing, would you jump out of the plane with it while yelling about their burden of proof?
     
    #9
  10. Khaleg

    Khaleg Commander

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2020
    Messages:
    103
    Likes Received:
    117
    @Aetrion , @Kassonnade,

    Both of you are right. Kassonnade simply advocates for a controlled test (as a test lab to prove something) , and I agree that prior to making assumptions or explaining rare behaviors a more controlled environment would be required.

    Aetrion says, by observation, that turrets shoot even when are not pointing to the enemy. Probably he is right, I have not tested this, but Kassonade says that, in order to be able to ensure this, we must be sure that the turret is not pointing to "another", not visible to us, target, just to be sure.

    We are talking here about science, in the sense that a computer program (the game) is science based and produced by science, so the best approach to analyze any rare behavior is taking a scientific approach. This does not mean that we do not trust on the word of who reports a bug, this means that, in order to analyze the possible bug, and depending on the nature of the bug, a more controlled environment is required.

    Would we be able to set such environment, saving a savegame, may be taking a video of the tests, and provide this to the developers? This would be the best approach.

    Anyway @Aetrion, you suggestion of fixing this by expanding 20% the radius of the target detection range would work, only if the time that the turret takes to turn around pointing to the target is less than the time in traveling inside the shooting range. Would be a good approach, as workaround, but hardly it is a fix, the real fix is that the turret only should shoot when the target is on range and the turret is pointing at it, just as any human would manage a turret.
     
    #10
    Kassonnade likes this.
  11. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    May 13, 2017
    Messages:
    2,816
    Likes Received:
    4,111
    Thanks for the support @Khaleg , but honestly I think I'm wasting my time arguing with some players. They don't seem to understand the benefit of making intelligent reports on bugs or weird behaviors, and expect the developers to guess and poke around like they only have this particular issue to solve, and lots of time to waste on it.

    The irony of this situation is that all these players focusing on the "complaining" tactic to try to "force" the devs to work on each of their specific issue without providing detailed information, are in fact all working against each other. Who will win the "complaining contest" ? The one who makes the biggest threat ? The one who yells the loudest ? The one with the highest amount of friends ? The one with the most hours played ?

    Good luck to them all.
     
    #11
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2021
  12. Aetrion

    Aetrion Lieutenant

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    59
    Good thing you're here to tell people that merely describing what they are seeing in the game and spelling out two separate ways to repro it isn't intelligent enough and will waste the devs' time. Surely they would be lost without such a mighty and wise gatekeeper.
     
    #12
  13. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    May 13, 2017
    Messages:
    2,816
    Likes Received:
    4,111
    You can play the offended victim if you want, that doesn't make your thread a helpful nor relevant bug report in any way. Some players get it, some don't. When feelings get in the way of judgment there's not much others can do, so good luck with that too.
     
    #13
  14. Aetrion

    Aetrion Lieutenant

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    59
    It's not up to you to decide if a thread is useful or not. You're not a dev. You're not a mod. You're just an obnoxious self appointed gatekeeper trying to police what people post here by pretending to be concerned about the quality of feedback.

    If you want to help the dev team on this game how about you let them decide what feedback they find useful and what feedback they don't find useful, and don't crap all over their community by trying to drive people away with disingenuous criticism of their posts.
     
    #14
  15. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    May 13, 2017
    Messages:
    2,816
    Likes Received:
    4,111
    This is the "general discussion" section, just in case you think the developers are anxious to learn about your predicament.

    If you want to report bugs or provide feedback there are dedicated threads for that all over the place, where you're sure the devs will have a look. Here, you're "inviting" replies, but I can understand you would like to control what others tell you. Tough luck.
     
    #15
  16. Spoon

    Spoon Captain

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2020
    Messages:
    442
    Likes Received:
    568
    This should be easy to test for the devs or someone who can mod a playfield.
    Just set up a place with a small enemy ship that has no turrets. Spawn in a ship with a single Artillery Turret.
    Point the turret away from the enemy ship and only have 1 shell.
    Fly the ship towards the enemy and watch to see when the turret fires. There are no other enemy around to lock onto.
    If it fires when not pointed at the enemy ship double check to see if the enemy ship is damaged. It may be a visual glitch there it actually fires at the enemy but doesn't show it pointing at the enemy.
    Repeat 3 times, to make sure.
     
    #16
    xtended2l and Khaleg like this.
  17. Aetrion

    Aetrion Lieutenant

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    59
    It is extremely easy to verify.
    You're entirely free to keep making a fool of yourself, I just want you to know that your behavior is completely transparent. You pretend you're worried about good feedback, but if you were honestly concerned about the devs not getting good information you'd go repro the potential problem that someone "improperly" brought up and write a report that meets your standards for useful feedback yourself. Instead you're just puffing yourself up about how much better you know everything.

    You're not here to help the devs get good feedback, you're here to make yourself feel important.

    Yes, this is extremely easy to repro even by literally just testing it in the game, which is why it's annoying as hell to have to deal with people flying around on their rocket powered goalpost demanding better information.
     
    #17
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2021
  18. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    May 13, 2017
    Messages:
    2,816
    Likes Received:
    4,111
    Then just prove this and stop blabbering about it. We all know you're a very important Dude and you graced the devs and everyone with your "report" of this situation.

    Other players make reports, you want to discuss, but then not really sure... Or is it that you can't find the proper threads ? I can help you with that, really ! Just say "I really want to tell the devs their sh*t game has turrets shooting anywhere all the time" etc.

    Come on : one more round, champ.

    So why you still stuck in that loop and don't just do it yourself ? Chickening out that it may not work "all the time, all turrets, all ships and bases" ?

    Well here is the point you keep missing and I've already told you that. You want to piss on a feature and I simply tell you that you're exaggerating it. Now you want me to prove you're not exaggerating.

    Guys like you can't find help on a game forum. You might have better luck in a hospital.


    .
     
    #18
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2021
  19. Alhira_K

    Alhira_K Captain

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2017
    Messages:
    287
    Likes Received:
    377
    [​IMG]
     
    #19
  20. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    May 13, 2017
    Messages:
    2,816
    Likes Received:
    4,111
    I just love when they start cool and end up going nuts...
     
    #20
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2021
    Germanicus likes this.

Share This Page