Sounds interesting! Gaining xp as we know and/or finding parts of hm.... datacristall? to fill your research points....
Okie doke. Here's my penny on this. I have played this since first release It has come a long way since then and I think this game has a lot of potential. Really great job Devs. In my opinion I would prefer that new blocks are actually obtained by researching them in the science lab (Or something like) rather than progressively obtaining new ones by doing unrelated tasks on an xp system. This would open the game back up to your main limitations being the resources you have available and as an extra whether you have physically taken the actions to research or discover and research that technology. If you think about it, the constructor is basically a very advanced 3d printer that doesn't require the individual using it to truly understand what it is doing. So having an adanced AI system to research new tech which is then applied to the constructor would make alot of sense. There is so much potential to this system, we could find new tech trees to research from alien races, ancient ruins or new elements (ores) discovered etc. That would provide the game to continue having purpose long after you leave the first solar system and spread out into the wider galaxy. There is likely more technology to find and implement. In multiplayer it would also let the new players breathe, since it's likely the players further ahead would have already left the system to explore and gain new technology. Lets say for example you want to research a new weapon in the standard human tech tree. You select the research and perhaps have to drop a few ores of the relevant type for the science lab to build a prototype. Then like the constructor there is a fairly lengthy time to wait before the research is done. Then it will appear as a new blueprint in your constructor. Obviously this could mean that the game could have an enormous amount of content you can build. So a more effecient way of sorting the blocks in the constructor would be needed once they start stacking up. For balance issues as well, perhaps making tech quite varied. Providing a bonus over another similar tech from another tree but also a weakness. Here is an example: Example Human Tech Tree - Neither powerful in one regard or weak, dependable. Can be researched without finding new tech. Weapons, simple and effective. Cheap to manufacture and cheap ammunition - Ballistic weapons. Standard ballistic weapons we have now going up in Tiers. For CV, BA, SV and HV. Gatlings, Cannons, Rockets, Railguns and Fixed CV Mass drivers/torpedoes Turret for BA. Other Blocks - Thrusters we have now, Armour blocks for vessels, armour for players etc Example Alien Tech Trees Ex Alien Race 1 Weapons - Plasma Weapons. Fixed and turret plasma cannons for vehicles. Fixed Large plasma cannon for CV, Large turret for BA. Plasma thrower (flame thrower), plasma pistol etc. Powerful but slow fire rate. Needs alot of promethium and magnesium for ammuntion. Other blocks - Heavy Armour for BA, CV, SV and HV, high protection, twice the weight. Heavy armour for player, increased protection, slow movement speed. Ex Alien Race 2 Weapons - Beam Weapons. Fixed and turret beam weapons. Large Beam cannon for CV. Player laser weapons, pistol, assault, beam sniper and heavy beam cannon. Effecient and dangerous, needs hydrogen and a rare ore to make ammunition? Other blocks - Energy Shielding for CV and BA !!!!!???? (Off topic) Ex Alien Race 3 Weapons - Bio Weapons. Player weapons only, need spoiled food in ammuntion. Relatively low damage but poisons the target. Player Armour - Light armour, less protection but augmented movement speed. Other blocks - Cloaking device !!!!!!???? (Very off topic) You can really go to town with this. The only limit being how much content and features the devs want to add. It could make the game absolutely brilliant. Meet new and completely different alien races with new technologies they use against you, pvp wars with factions that use different alien technologies. The trick is balancing the techs so they have their advantages but also their disadvantages. I know that I have focused on weapon technologies etc but there are plenty of other techs that could be possible for survival purposes. Better reactors, new engines, new food growing plots, food recipes, The XP system It seems a shame that with it already being in the game in some fashion that it be abandoned. I'd say use it as less of a leveling up system but a way of personalising your character as they adapt. Perhaps they become slightly better with shotguns but worse with sniper rifles? With a perk based system perhaps? Or go for a very literal xp system. You gain points in pistols and get better with them the more you use them. Hunting, you get better at hunting that specific animal? I'm less of a clue what to do with this. Balancing this would be an issue in multiplayer, some would like it and some not. If the XP system is made more player character focused, perhaps the option to turn it off or on would work. Then the PVP fairness could be maintained with it off for servers wanting that vibe. For other servers that like the idea of perhaps unfair diversity among the abilities of the PC's and single player we would still have that. Either way i'd like to think that the wits behind the PC to the person sat playing them would count for more and technological advantages used in the right way would count for far more. Essay over. Happy survivng.
I don't think it fits the game to be able to gain a new propulsion technology by doing something like gathering plants or shooting wildlife. How does my constructor know how many plants I've picked (and immediately discarded) and why does it use that as a criteria to suddenly grant me permission to build a new type of thruster? Who is this "my constructor" person anyway? In Ark they can get away with this system, because it seems like the premise of the game is that you've been put on this island by someone who has the power to decide what you can and can't learn as a reward system for the things you do. (Or your player in the game is playing a survival game? I dunno, but obviously it's built into the premise if there is one.) In minecraft you use XP to get enchants, but that setting is a fantasy world where magic exists. But in the setting of empyrion, using XP to unlock tech is game-breaking, IMO. Empyrion is not a cartoon, a fantasy world, or a game within a game. It's supposed to be set in reality. In reality you gain new technology by figuring it out yourself, or copying the knowledge from someone else who has figured it out.
Thoughts after a couple hours: - You use a xp system like in a rpg which makes no sense in space - You get xp for nothing (mining) and you cant focus on a research branch and eg become an armor crafter. In its current state its just a time sink to prevent progression (mindless grind). - better alternative: a) scan alien artefacts for techs eg like in subnautica b) make research option availabe through a console c) scrap the current xp system completely d) big science projects eg for multiplayer to foster teamwork
Disagree with you there, especially on point "C" - Mass Effect is an RPG set in space. The XP system is marvelous (well there are some issues but still) and I enjoy the game greatly. Mining grants me ores, and hunting gets me food. I get rewarded with XP and some supplies for both these "mindless" things . I think it all depends on your perspective. From what I've seen, a player's play style reflects their opinion of the tech tree. There are some good points and discussions taking place but I definitely have to refute you on scrapping the entire system. I think its great and heading in the right direction.
Hello Empyrion Devs, You guys have restored my faith in pre-release games! You have a great game here and it is already a lot of fun to play, keep going! This might be the first game I have played that involved resource grinding where it doesn't feel like such a grind. Mining with the laser is actually fun. Beats the teats out of swinging a pickaxe! Regarding the tech tree, I like the idea of having experience and character progression in the game a lot. However, I really don't like having a tech tree to unlock blocks. It feels very contrived to me, sort of like "we want to have progression and this is all we could think of." Please don't take that the wrong way, I am sure that's not what you were actually thinking, it's just my first impression. My feeling is that a tech tree for unlocking building blocks doesn't add anything as far as "fun factor" to the game and seems illogical. Harvesting sufficient resources should give you access to building blocks, and nothing else. Its hard to come up with any good reason (I have tried) why you should have to gain levels in order to build more blocks. Plus, its not much fun to be able to start building a base but be missing half of the basic blocks required until you gain experience. Ditto for the vehicle blocks. Why even bother to start building a hovercraft if you are missing half of the blocks needed? I think a much better way to have character progression would be with a skill tree rather than a tech tree. In other words, characters could invest the points they get from gaining levels into skills that improve their various abilities: mining; movement (walking, jumping, swimming); piloting; shooting. I'm sure we could come up with more. This would create real differentiation between different players as they choose to emphasize and improve different abilities. It would also be more fun gaining levels and spending skill points, rather than the current system which just feels.... well, like I said, contrived. I don't feel a sense of development when I unlock building blocks, I feel like its just some hoop that the game is making me jump through. Whereas choosing how to improve my character's abilities would give me a sense of reward and satisfaction for gaining levels. Just my two cents. Honestly the only thing I've found in the game that I would change is the tech tree for unlocking building blocks. Its the only aspect of this otherwise really enjoyable and engrossing game that I found more irritating and jarring than entertaining. Of course I want more content too, but that's a matter of adding, not changing what already exists. Anyway, thank you again for making such a great game, I am really impressed with what you have so far and really looking forward to see where it goes from here. Best regards, Sof2man
I love the idea of skills progression but Im against arbitrary combat skill boost they are some what game breaking in PVP. eg Weapon Proficiency Pulse rifle = X bonus damage sucks. Weapon Proficiency Pulse Rifle = Faster Reload or Quicker Recoil Recovery (ok). In PVP this means the weapon damage is the same still but the skilled player get a slight damage boost (can reload quicker) or better aim (Recoil Recovery, mouse cursor deviates less on a burst ). These form of skills enhance the player and still require the RL skill of aiming and shooting to cause damage.
@blutiger Ok i should have been more precise in some points. @ME: well i dont want to start the rpg debate but i'd refer to Knights of the old republic for a space rpg. But in ME the xp system made sense in the way to unlock abilities ans specialise your char to a certain extend. @Scrapping: Scrap the tech unlock for xp - makes no sense and 200 xp for harvesting 1 pumpkin makes even less. This worked somehow in Skyrim to improve your abilities and made you wear fancy gear. But Skyrim had better gfx and fps elements so you didnt notice how dull the system is. But at least it had its use there. For instance i dont see much of a difference if u specialise in assault rifles or sniper rifles in empyrion. And - if u could - xp had at least a kind of sense. But i dont see such an rpg element in the current state and i doubt you can unleash the rpg potential with the current engine. The fps Element is far to basic yet. Well be more precise pls, whats great and why? Because i dont see the sense in mixing xp and techtree. Seperate them and give em a sense and yea it might be worth keeping but currently.... NO
Gear was also unlocked in ME when you upgraded your stats to a certain degree, as well as weapons a la Empyrion's tech tree system. Worked pretty well for me there. I heard KOTOR is good but haven't played it so can't speak on that. I think with anything you do in a game, no matter how medial or minor granting a bit of XP is nothing to bash the devs about. Yeah maybe it can be discussed the amount of XP granted (like in your pumpkin example, 20xp instead of 200xp) but I don't think there's a need to remove it completely. Modifying it seems like a better solution and easier I would think. As far as why I like the tech system so much, it gives me a sense of accomplishment, as in I'm making the progress. Sure it can use some tweaking here and there but overall I think it's a great mechanic and like I mentioned elsewhere a differentiator for this type of game. I know they're working on further developing the tree so would like to see what else they come up with
I'm not against the techtree beside some tweaks it needs. I'm against the mixing with xp. It breaks the emersion. You have the pod and basic gear and you have to evolve or die - you get hostile starter planets which force you to become a kind of expert in setting up your basic survival. New devices and gear need a certain efford. Its all fine and believable but then you get some flaws witch break the emersion. The xp system to unlock techs is one of em. Its like a browser mmo where you have to grind for xp. Why do i have to unlock a gun this way? As Spacefaring civilisation you should have knowledge of ballistic weapons. Yes you may improve and evolve them but not with xp for gardening or minging. "Unlocking" through research fits fare more in this setting. And you may combine it with grown materials to link this form of "accomplishment" with other crafting aspects. Its not like u get it for free u need resources, time and tech to advance. In my opinion, xp would make sense when they do smth to improve the emersion. In ME one might argue it brings your dmg output up for the next level or it improves aim, etc. (But i never got why humaniti's superhero has to unlock guns...^^) In 7 days to die it would be smth like faster mining/more items mined. You always can debate how got its implemented but it works along the storyline. And I dont see these aspects in empyrion yet when it comes to the current xp system. For me it breaks the red line so far. Combine the xp with smth else and i might say yay. I hope the devs prove me wrong but i dont see the shooter part as a strong element in the game. So progress is for me more like fulfilling the means to an end instead of just unlocking. And i need to see/experience how i plan and succed in my strategy. The current xp system feels to abstract. Getting energy guns just by digging dirt ... sorry but thats not it. Well there are other points too, like you need a lot salamis a day or your oxygen tank empties faster than my granny's o2 tank Thats Ok, in phase of bare survival but then it needs to evolve somehow. I should have the time to emerse in all those possibilities without getting stuck to bare survival themes. The survival/crafting aspects need to evolve with your stage in game. It cant be that you build 500+ block battleships and you have to mine with the same lil emergency drill you started out with (but you should have the option to). But the same setting "evolved" might be that your fighter or cv got shot down and you got another emergency pack and you have to get back to your homeworld from the scratch. So just have an unlock with xp system isnt a unique feature of empyrion. A lot of games have it and they have a bad one - as bottom line think of countless mmo's. What would Empyrion make unique is such an evolving storyline like my lil example above. The survival theme is there but it gets dramatic in a different sence and it combines with other aspects of the game like crafting or multiplayer: you may craft an emergency comm to call for help on that rock you've been shot down. Or as a tech variant: You may produce a living hull with a certain plant. Its scarce and you need to do research to buil special habitats to produce it. This would also combine different game elements in an emersive way just unlocking the hull with 20k xp would be just half the fun. You might also bring deco elements like the console to a good use. Also the Level of Space you have: Planet, System, Galaxy - Nice! Even without topnotch graphics these elements emersively combined would make game of the year - easy! Countless studios have fucked space sims up for several years. Empyrion has the potential to become the budget version of Chris Roberts but some "small" elements need to be combined the right way. An emersive techsystem is one of em. Amen!
I think the most common complaint about the tech tree is that you advance through it by "picking flowers" and that it doesn't make any sense that your ability to build a CV component is tied to how many you've picked. If you read through the prior posts in this thread you will find that being stated many times. From what I've read in the various threads on the topic, it seems the most popular position can be summed up as, "keep the tech tree, but base advancement on researching and/or looted data. If xp is kept it should advance personal traits, not technology."
Great points gents, as persistent as I am with our discussion I'm inclined to agree that the tech system does need a bit of work. I totally get you with the immersion aspect of things, if you don't think the tech tree suits the game I can see how you would be turned off the game real quick. If a tweak is implemented I think leaning toward skill progression would work, like shooting your pistol grants XP specific to that weapon and if you fire it enough times, get enough critical hits, etc you'll gain enough XP to unlock the tier 2. Same thing with farming plants, do it enough and unlock more difficult to obtain plants for farming etc. So I definitely agree with the tweaking aspect. Lol @ the salami and O2 tank. That's pretty hilarious haha
There's a certain really cool Alien Cockpit i'd love to be able to 'ask the Aliens' about how to Build & use for myself... in the Universal Language of Violence... I also think it'd be cool to be able to use this kinda system to someday be able to learn how to craft those Base Ion Cannons... they're cool dudes! Maybe even figure them out enough to 'put my own touch on them' & change the color of the Gun & its Beam to Blue! ^_^ (Of course it'd be cool if I could personalize the colors of all Alien Tech I learn how to Craft... or at least have them be Paintable.) Also, this would be plenty expandable in the future with new ideas since we keep getting XP even past 20 so we could Unlock New Update delivered Techs, like if Spacesuit Armor Tech ever got devised. I'd love to get good at being an Armorer & be able to armor myself to better survive Combat... & what if my Lightning Planet Idea ever got Implemented & suddenly an entire selection of Electric Stuff, from Guns to Protection, got Implemented, then i'd be able to work my way through that Tech Tree, no need for Character Restart or anything! Just see the opportunity for new learning experience & seize it! Reminds me of Skyrim's Leveling System. Never made sense to me why I had to level EVERYTHING to get my Character to full power, but it did feel awesome to get better at my beloved 2-Handed Axes by using them against my enemies & learning from it. I could totally see this kinda system working in this game where we could play our way & get better at it as we go, while never needing to feel any need to improve on areas of the game we feel we don't need, like for example, for me, Deco Items. The Player can decide for themselves if they'd like to practice & train their way to Omnipotism, become a Warrior/Builder/Miner (aka my path), or if they'd be perfectly happy playing MP & doing nothing but Farming & Cooking for everyone while being too meek & civilian to even be able to Pistol down a pesky attacking Plant Monster. Now that ya mention it, I wouldn't mind being able to train my Character to become better at athletic stuff like running longer, being more resistant to pain/knockback, swimming, holding my breath, holding my Tool/Weapon in hand steadier, better jumping, etc. I'll leave the Brain stuff to peeps that have a Brain to develop, unlike me. I'll fill the 'Tough Guy' Role. Does indeed feel like it would make more sense if Farming & Picking Plants & such would improve your skill at, perhaps, Botany, instead of one's ability to build Ships. Edit: Oh, also, if it's not out of place here, a Progression Path suggestion from me myself: Melee, both armed & unarmed! I'd love to be able to train & use Space 2-Handed Axes in Combat, especially for Hunting! Also would be cool if we could train in Martial Arts, & no I don't wanna hear it about Martial Arts having no place in a Space Age with Guns & Space Age Tech... go ahead, laugh at me. How about you spoiled rotten Space People crash land on a Planet, run outta Ammo before ya can find your first Magnesium Vein, then die cause ya can't defend yourself anymore, while I crash land on the same world, run outta Ammo before I can find my first Magnesium Vein, then Kung Fu those damn Plant Monsters down while dodging their slow clumsy attacks & stay alive! Who's laughing now? Plus could use Martial Arts in a Base Raid when ya sneak up on a lone soldier from behind & are able to neutralize them without much noise thus making for a smarter, better, more efficient attack on the Enemy. (Well, once the dudes lose their cheater 360 degree X-Ray Vision + cheater computer speed reaction time...)
three tree skills development. - the first is craft and the construction of ships. (existing tree +new technologies) - the second military skills (skills specific weapon upgrades, special consoles, accuracy, damage, special tools and management consoles that provide additional strength to the ship.) - political and trading skills (skills for trading, tracking favorable cent, construction of certain consoles and the control of prices, the situation on the planet, planets) P/S the radar can be used as a method of communication between merchant ships, planets and other things that would know the market situation between the planets. (i.e. the prices of certain planets and the course of products. Course products is to make global developments-impact of wars pirates of infrastructure, etc.)
technological development tree. You can then progress to the implantation of improvements.They can be up to infinity with different levels, etc. the technique can add a special computer-owning a vehicle it is possible to install a special card(there is room to grow your business and expand interest in the game) the first level of the map artifacts(find in the temples and dangerous places) the second level of cards is assembled from parts. Third paid type cards. Install cards into the computer on the ship gives bonuses to strength, arms.The replenishment of energy, Oxygen, etc. This is a very cool idea which will bring the developer more money=)
I like the exp system as well as the tech tree. I am not sure why anyone would find it hard to start you gather a few plants shoot a dino or two and bam level 1 and so on. It might be a little harder if you go to another planet for a start that does not have oxygen to breath. But they give you an oxygen generator so you need to find water not overly hard in this game,which by the way helps you to explore which gives exp .It is a work in progress and does need some tweeking and more recipes and the such otherwise you guys are doing a great job !keep up the great work!
Perhaps tech trees do not need to be a player level thing, but instead you could invest in specialised technologies, for example, there was a branch of handheld energy weapons that were in a special part of the Tech tree. The weapons could only be unlocked if you destroyed the core of the Alien Experimental Energy Research Station in Austus orbit. DISCLAIMER: I do not want EGS to turn into an RPG
Not sure how destroying the Alien Core makes the new Knowledge of how to make the Alien Weapons suddenly jump into your head... but ok... Also, i'm sure EGS won't turn into an RPG. It has more in common with the likes of Minecraft & maybe even Skyrim then it does any RPG I can think of.
It may actually be easier. It has been a few months since I played but it's probably still the case that gathering plants gives more xp on Omicron than Akua. And mindlessly beavering your way through the shrubbery is a great way to make levels. It just doesn't make any sense that you'd crash land on an alien world and start annihilating the local plant life and filling your pockets with mostly useless materials. That's why many don't like such progression systems. They make you do crazy things (within the context of the game) just for the sake of making the right numbers (xp) go up so you can do certain other things you want or need to do. I'm still of the opinion this should be a config option. Have it there for those who want it and let those who don't disable it. Let everyone play the game how they like - without needing to employ the hack.
