@piddlefoot - agree 100% Zirax troops getting confused then insta-hacking your core isn't fun gameplay. Mowing them down as they wander around aimlessly sorta is, but it gets old fast lol. They have improved a LOT in general. I recall it wasn't so long ago that shooting Zirax patrols in their territory saw them just die - no other reaction to being hit. Now they dash around and come get you...quite a shock when you see that for the first time. Good improvement. Zirax Troops need to try to get to your walls or a doorway / other obvious entrance (how obvious to an AI though?) and try to blast their way in - through a wall if necessary. They shouldn't really know where your core is automatically, though I appreciate they need the help. Nor should they be able to hack it until very close. Perhaps part of the key to better Zirax behaviour is down to how the landscape is generated. I mean, cover-wise there are trees and rocks - which can provide potential cover, but the ground lacks natural ditches and rises on the scale that a player or Troops could hide behind and poke their heads out of to take pot shots. Give us something like this and perhaps a mortar Zirax who can lob explosives up and over (one for player too please!) then they can be a bit more tactical in their use of cover. They could also potentially camp a location under cover if there's no viable approach to your base. I.e. prior teams have tried and failed. If they can cause trouble in other ways though, like the aforementioned mortar, or just taking quick pot shots with a rocket launcher before base turrets can react, that'd force the player to engage via other means. Either going out on foot (sounds fun) or jumping in and SV or HV to outflank them. At the end of the day, purely suicidal Zirax are amusing for about five minutes, then becomes old. I'd love to see them recognise the terrain for the potential cover it can provide, as well as a "safer" approach direction for a player base. I think AI really is going to be a huge part of the gameplay moving forwards. Even the changes made thus far, Zirax patrols in their own territory, have made it MUCH more fun to "invade" their areas of control. Note: when I've "liberated" a Zirax controlled area by taking out any POI's - i.e. the Red territory marker goes - I noticed that Zirax stop spawning. This makes sense, but it'd be cool if any active squads then tried to rush the last POI location...and the player had to defend it. I do love the idea of base attacks made purely by ground troops that are dropped off out of range of a bases guns. They could then approach using cover / some form of semi-stealth mechanic, where the bases long range guns can't simply spot and blast them at a distance. I mentioned earlier about an accuracy penalty for large base turrets firing on troops. However, perhaps a detection range penalty is better so they can fire on troops, but not at their full range...plus they'd perhaps naturally not be that accurate vs. a dodging target at close range due to turret tracking speed. Scoob.
Every block has an ID number, to the AI, it just sees that, so pathfinding for doorways isnt that hard, but pathfinding on open terrain is where it gets really tricky. Trees, rocks, player made objects, these are the really tricky pathfinding areas. But the thread is asking the wrong question, its far to rudimentary to ask at such a simple level, to strong or to weak, its far more complicated than that, its really a poor survey and will give the wrong outcome, because the focus is on the result, not the method. The focus needs to be on the method, how they do it, not the result. The survey is rendered useless because of this. The AI in Farcry, is obviously light years ahead, they can hunt you in groups, shoot through windows, retreat when shot at, take cover and a dozen other tricky things, but this is done on a ''static'' map one you can not change or shape in any real way, thats where Empyrion gets really tricky, but AI with some of those capabilities would really help this game. The ability to clone your own few troops or workers, seen in many games now, really should be in this game, would make the game much more interesting. Send them to trade stations to level up, yes you must level up your clones and pay cash to do it, BAM, a real use for money in the game finally, where real incentive is given to want to do it......... Make or break features. I see laughable is leading the survey, but heres the thing, I voted laughable because of how they approach, its a joke how they attack, like WW1 lambs to the slaughter. Yet the attacks are to strong because of the stupid, I will hack you now cos Im a frekin lazy Zirax chump who wants your lunch money hehe..... Survey rendered useless.
In fact this is an incomplete question. We should have some informations regarding the scale of the attacks in relation to defenses, else we can't even guees if it's really "working as intended". So, surely, "triggers" are triggered and NPCs do things accordingly, but is that all we are asked to answer? For example, the first attacks I witnessed on my base (which is more a fortress compared to a starter shack) were very weak. I watched the show from high above, taking notes and gardening while my base took care of it. But surely a beginner's shack could easily have been compromised by these same attacks. -------------------------------------- On points brought by Scoob and Piddlefoot, I think one solution for cover useable by the attackers could be some kind of portable shield that one of them carries and maintains, to protect his teammates while they advance towards the base. They could also use any wreck (their own ships shot down) if possible, as a first solution. But they must advance, and the wreck will not, hence the portable shield suggestion. -------------------------------------- For the "hacking" I didn't face that situation yet, but I guess if it can be "defeated" reasonably before success, then it's just a question of how and when this cyber-attack is conducted against players.
I wonder if having Troop Transports deploy Troops (duh lol) but out of range of the bases guns would be a decent start. Then, these troops could perhaps set up some sort of small field base (Zirax using deployables?) which might bring more reinforcements if left alone / not spotted long enough. In turn, perhaps this field base might become a forward outpost, lightly armed, and have it build up from there. The player(s) could choose to ignore this, or go out to meet it early to nip things in the bud, so to speak. Allow it to "level up" over time as more reinforcements arrive would make for a cool challenge for some players I'm sure...a POI on your doorstep. This is akin to the Player's use of BP's to pop down a base, which I know isn't a final game mechanic, but could be exploited to a degree. I.e. a terrain placeable device that "builds" a small POI when fed with materials brought by Transports and assembled in chunks by the Zirax. I'm sure the very talented POI creators out there could devise a small POI that upgrades in stages, allowing it to build up. Not block by block as the player does perhaps (but that would be epic) but in stages. As an aside I've often wish there was a way to "upgrade" a BP to another as I of design (during a Survival game) things that start as a basic low-level "MkI" and are slowly upgraded over time. Having an in-game way to say upgrade this BP to this BP would be cool. I know I've gone waaaay off topic here, but I think we need to move away from enemies just charging a Base in a straight line. I get how terrain might be difficult for the AI to "read" thanks to @piddlefoot's explanation - makes perfect sense - but I would hope they'd be able to detect deco such as rocks and trees (maybe not?) as well as be aware of terrain heights around them (again, maybe not?) it just depends on what the AI sees and what they can readily be coded to see. I do like the idea of Troops etc. gathering just outside weapons range to launch a larger attack. Even with the current AI this could work fairly well I feel. I.e. the first few waves get wiped out quickly - assuming turrets remember to fire lol - so the AI changes tactics a little, assembling outside of weapons range and building up a larger force. So, plenty of Troops with a good range of weapons along with supporting Drones. A rush by 20 or 30 Zirax - dodging as they go (thwarted somewhat by insta-hit weapons sadly) while a wing of Drone also rush in...well, that'd be FUN. Have them focus on destruction not "I don't know where I'm going...insta-hack" have them blow stuff up! Scoob.
@ Scoob : a hundred Zirax should suffice to fry the player's PC, if they don't get his base... I think attacks should not bring too many entities to the battlefield, as the AI troopers usually run heavy autonomous scripts. Having them to "read" the deco items would probably be too much demanding and result in unexpected behavior or decisions. Their "pathfinding" routines could be kept very simple, but they could benefit from more methods. For example, instead of hacking the whole base, this method could simply disable specific systems in a set delay, forcing players to either try to stop the hacker, or to try to get the system back online. Hacking could then apply to another system, etc. Players could have a chance to stop the hacking by direct action (destroy hacking device or kill its operator). If device is very hard to destroy, then operator can be killed more easily, and maybe get replaced by another one after some delay. The device should not be in plain view of turrets but hidden in a safe spot close to the base. New personnel could replace hack technician with reinforcements arriving after some delay, which provides the player with a reasonable time window to try to find/ destroy the hacking device. Just throwing ideas here, as I have no clue what is the final objective of that AI "method" (ex. "end game" content's enemy attacks of some sort...) .
Zirax thinking outside the box by taking out their entire reality in the form of the Players PC...deep lol. I know it's a very different sort of game, but having 100's (or more) units on an individual map navigating around has been done many times in various RTS type games. I'd have thought 20-30 would be fine in Emyrion. I mean, I encounter multiple Zirax patrols of at least four units each while wandering through their territory and my PC seemed to manage ok, despite the CPU being eight years old now. With the expected optimisations that'll come over time, I see no reason why Empyrion wouldn't be perfectly capable of having lots of NPC's / Critter on screen and pathing around at once. I did propose elsewhere that Zirax could perhaps gain the ability to temporarily disable defences and other devices by EMP. However, I think just having them blow stuff up is more amusing. I do wonder which way things will go. The current AI can only "win" by cheating currently - aka hacking - as they tend to talk right into danger, though they are a little more self aware than they were - well, patrols are at least. Also, if the game cannot cope with having more of them, to spread the fire more or less, then I don't know what's best. We need to see more intelligent tactical behaviour from NPC's that's for sure, but the huge balance difference between a ground Troop and even your basic Cannon Turret is too large, so they can never really get close unless the player is particularly inattentive. It's looking like a whole weapon balance pass and AI improvements are needed. Being honest, while I do like the new base attacks - and the way the AI can sometimes jump me when I land my CV with Drones and Troop Transports - I'm often a little underwhelmed how my base can easily defeat it. Drones fly in a straight line, get shot down, as do Troop Transports. If Trooper do manage to land, the transport is a bullet sponge after all, they then fall quite quickly to basic Cannon Turrets. If troops actively flanked a Base - do they? or is it just random approach direction? - then that'd be cool. However, I've build unbalanced bases and the direction of attack seems random. Scoob.
Many players with good machines struggle when they get in rooms with a dozen enemies, in FPS games. My laptop is old too, and I can play these games ok by lowering settings, but Empyrion is one of the heaviest right now, so I wouldn't expect more than a slideshow with lots of enemies. Part of the problem is also that the environment is destructible, voxel based building and ships, etc. Depending on the pathing method used, AI could be fooled or lose its references with trees and rocks disappearing, rockets digging holes in the ground... it would have to adjust constantly. Logically a player wouldn't attack a POI defended by heavy weaponry on foot, so I guess the same should apply to the AI... Send the troops only when the path is safer and clear, else use another method. But I can see the problem Eleon has because the players can replace destroyed weapons quickly if needed, restock ammo, fuel, etc. How can any attack force decide "when" is the best time to sent troopers on foot ? Skydivers ? Clay pidgeon hunt...
As a slight aside, I did propose some time back that Turrets and the like have a damaged state where they go inactive. So, a Turret below let's say 25% health cannot fire, goes inactive and becomes a lower priority target for the AI. Now, the player could just reclaim the turret - 25% components only, it's a broken turret - and place down a new one, but that's inefficient. They could however repair the Turret to get it online again. Perhaps repairs from the "broken" state would need a small sub-set of components in the players inventory - a bit like when you upgrade something - so there's more of a cost. The plus side is you didn't lose a Turret and it's far cheaper than building a new one. Personally, I think this might add a little more player involvement, plus seeing your base - or indeed an enemy POI - with smoking damaged Turrets might be quite cool. Regarding performance, is Empyrion really so hard on modern hardware? My CPU is eight years old and though it was high-end in its day, that's still pretty ancient! Really, for the Zirax to be a REAL threat against a base, they need their own HV's and SV's. Drones and ground Troops can only go so far unless they get a LOT smarter. Even a fairly light Zirax SV is going to bring the pain to an early-game base. Scoob.
Battlefield 2, many years ago now, 248 bots rush attack mod, brilliant, used to lag, but at 128 bots ran like a charm, its possible but its alot of work, the guy who made that mod, took a year to make it back then. We dont need that in Empyrion. What we need is more sophisticated pathfinding abilities and detection abilities by teh AI. They should have HV tanks I totally agree. Another issue is the AIs accuracy , they are far far far to accurate over long distances. Its utterly frustrating how accurate they are 100% of teh time. At distance there accuracy should drop to 5 to 10 % just like ours does. Much better spray patterns are needed. But for new players the base attack is to overwhelming while trying to learn the game. The starter planet should be about survival, I suggested natural disasters yonks ago, here is why, you use a natural disaster to push the player off the first planet, forcing them to explore and re-locate, no living on the starter the whole game, super volcano, asteroid of mega proportions , hurricane event, radiation even, quasar strike, black hole event, many ways to do it, it adds to the progression of the games story. Players should not be able to create crew members on teh starter planet, thats more of a mid game feature. Where they build there second base on a planet or moon, is where the base attacks should start. There should be a mechanism to make players require a ground base, for example, the clone traning block can only be placed on a base on the surface of a planet, not in orbit. Simple things like that can direct a player in the right direction. They dont stop the player building in space if they want, keeps freedom, gives options, has the player on the right path.
Yes, my preference would be smarter AI that are harder to kill, not lots of dumb AI that just take longer to kill. I agree re-accuracy, I think it's something that should be addressed in general for any AI-controlled thing, including turrets. My preference, and I mentioned this in a number of threads ages ago, was that the game very much starts out as Survival. You've crashed on a planet, everything is new and you need to just survive. I'd not introduce a technological threat - i.e. Zirax - until much later, doing so on the next planet would be a good way to do this. Keep the starter worlds as untamed wildernesses with, at most, a Talon presence and perhaps some "abandoned" type structures to add to the mystery. Base attack could still be a thing of course, from hostile "nests" of Critter that come knocking to the Talon if you annoy them enough. I've always wanted Critters to be the main early-game threat, and not just something that's mildly troublesome while the player is on foot. I think the state of the AI as it is now is easily able to simulate "dumb" critters coming up to bash your bases walls in, or burrow underneath it. Scoob.
Critters need random routines for sure. I spotted this thing that was running back and forth in the space delimited by the zoom circle: I expected it to move in some direction but it just kept going left-right-left etc. If a solution is found for this, then it could be tested with enemy patrols...
Add more steps to the Base attack option, to higher difficulty, with separate type of attacks; Troops, drones, vessels, critters, random, etc. Have an own option, so can choose if to be attacked at starter planet or later, with difficulty progression. Of course along with many of the suggestions provided for improvements of attacks.
AI troops need suppressing fire laid down so they can get off the ship. Be nice if the upgrade version of the troop attack see's planet vessels or SV's or something that can really lay down some fire! Motor launching troops laying down fire would also add to it.
On some planets, the planetary patrol vessel could be called if the base attack is a high difficulty one. That would be a good threat on the more dangerous planets. The PV could circle around your base bombarding it from above. Would also give a really good incentive to find and destroy it before you build a base on the planet.
I doubt that Eleon is using the vanilla Unity navigation system for AI pathfinding. @piddlefoot, do you know what package they are using, if any ? --------------------------------- I am sure that drones and other "attack" ships have no awareness of alternate paths when coming to a player's base, making them stand in the line of fire of turrets or player's hand weapons, with virtually no attempt for evasive maneuvers. Maybe "costs" could be attributed to various positions during the attack, but that's usually done at bake time, not during gameplay. The AI could benefit from some kind of mapping of the player's base, even a primitive one, that would update during an attack (no use to hide from a turret if it has beed disabled/ destroyed). I think that the fact that turrets can't fire directly overhead or below gives a chance to enemy vessels, and maybe should not be changed. Dropships could be bigger, to be able to sustain more damage to allow dropping more troops safely, and serve as local reference for pathfinding, allowing for a safe retreat or cover. It could land very close to the player base and stay there, to allow foot soldiers to be protected by the base walls. Make dropships worthless to loot, so more expendable.
Base attack strenght is too weak. In my game, with hard and high difficulty settings I still have attack difficulty on 0, despite I defended my base from various attacks and my bad reputation with Zirax. I still also don't understand the meaning of leaving us the choice to set the difficulty whether the game will keep being easy. Getting always 2-3 drones is somehow trolling.
Late to the party, and I haven't read the previous discussions, but I thought I would weigh in. I'm very much in the group of people who would like a bit more difficulty (make it optional, since not everyone is of that mindset). For me, the BA attacks on starter planets are laughable. They have much lower difficulty, which makes sense because you're 'starting', but since there is no incentive to set up base on a different planet (go and mine, yes; set up a base? Why?), you just end up building permanently on the starter planet, and the BA attack can easily be defeated by two canon turrets. Which means you've basically won at level five. Harder planets are a bit better, but not by much. I built a base on a snow planet, purely for the purpose of trying to make things more difficult, and was able to successfully ward off every BA attack with 2-3 flak turrets. I'd lose one every other wave. Not exactly life-threatening. I also had the misfortune of setting up base right in the path of the patrol vessel, so it was actually the first thing to attack my base. The worst that happened was that I kept running out of flak ammo. My two turrets just targeted the engines until it dropped from the sky. Even the patrol vessel was too easy. Granted, this was a version with only three turrets on it, only two of which could fire at me. I would expect other PVs to be harder. Solution? Well, like I said, first make the below optional. I'm sure there are plenty of people who think BA attacks are fine, or even overpowered. So if you're going to scale up the difficulty, definitely make it an option. Scale the attack difficulty with the number of guns on a base. Simple and effective. Throw in a low difficulty attack on a timer, regardless of guns, so that players can't just build their bases without guns and forget about the Zirax. Once guns are present, take them into account when calculating BA attack difficulty. The player can generate guns way faster than the difficulty increases (point in case - I have never seen it increase). But if difficulty is determined by the number of guns, no matter how well armed the base is, the player is always threatened. And actual threat is what keeps the game moving. For those players who want a special challenge (like me), step it up a notch. Purposefully make the Zirax MORE powerful than the player (again, as an option). Have them roll in with a tank, or a capital vessel, or something, and completely obliterate the base. Literally force the player to start over, either by having them flee the base now in Zirax hands, or work with the rubble left behind after the attack. This only makes sense. I mean, Zirax compounds are being destroyed and looted on a solar system scale by one person, and all the Zirax do is send more drones? No, they would eventually take the threat seriously, and eradicate the player with extreme prejudice. This is war. P.S. As a side note, I love the fact that the Talon will shut down a base. That is awesome. It negates the power of a base completely, which means it's down to the player alone, and any vehicles he has, to destroy the Talon. Of course, it will be way too easy to just bomb them with an SV... but baby steps I guess.
I put WTF because of the "way" its being done which makes the strength far more than it should be against an early game/first base. They spawn within range of being able to attack the base the second they do spawn in. Once a spawn comes with 3+ rocket drones, they can open up my base at spawn and only need to get in another round of missiles in to take out a core. This is very harsh at early game. Perhaps if range of the spawn was determined by the base size? Small bases get spawns farther away, large bases have it closer? Small base spawn @ 600m Medium base @ 400m Large @ 200m X-Large @ 100m Also, base hacking is way too OP. We need a way to defend against it ala a Firewall to delay it from happening so it isnt...instant. Perhaps also an item we can make that will turn the damn base back on after a few seconds. This could add a new dynamic to the game like the drones waiting for the hack to happen to get in shots while the base is down especially if there is a base with a shield.
This is interesting. 3 rocket drones will certainly do some damage, but I've never been in a situation where they can completely obliterate my starter base. Firstly, my immediate thought is that you must have a setting tweaked somewhere. I've never had a drone wave spawn within range of anything. They always spawn just outside minimap range for me. I would investigate what YAML file settings govern spawn distance and see if it's super short for you for some reason. Or just validate your game files and see if that fixes it. Second, three rocket drones will certainly do some damage. But I've never seen them get anywhere close to actually killing a base (except when I was just learning the game). I obviously don't know how you're building your bases, but make sure you are using concrete. It's the cheapest block to build, and has a ton of HP. Armored concrete only takes a little steel, and if you've salvaged a wreckage, that's super easy to come by. I think it even has the highest HP value of any block. Moreso even than combat steel. Simply use those blocks in a single or double wall around your core and it will take drones forever to get through it. Build more turrets. Level 5 turrets are cheap to make, and they can shred through waves easily. Not doing enough damage? slap a couple more turrets on the ground (use the 'connect to base' option in the 'N' menu). They take virtually no power to run. Finally, if none of that works, just build your core underground. Rocket drones will take forever to get at it, especially if you bury it deep. Just use your survival tool. As far as hacking goes, if you are getting instantly hacked, then again, check your settings. It takes the Zirax 10-15 seconds in my games (assuming they survive that long). Your wording makes me think you might actually be experiencing a bug with hacking, because hacking is supposed to switch the base to Zirax faction. It doesn't 'turn off' or anything like that. If the hack is destroying the core or shutting the base down or something, that's a bug. Also, hacking isn't entirely a bad thing, depending on how you build your base. If you're getting hacked a lot, here's what you do: Place your core underground. Put nothing around it so it is easily accessible. Above ground, build your base on stilts. Just high enough so that you can walk under it. Put turrets above these stilts. Now, if the Zirax manage to survive and start hacking, the following will happen: you will take your shotgun and go under your turrets. If the Zirax are successful, your turrets will be unable to shoot you. Since the Zirax are standing still and won't shoot while hacking, calmly walk up to each of them and shotgun them in the head. If the Zirax still manage to hack your base, simply go down the tunnel you drilled out, and shotgun/C4 the core (because hacking merely switches faction; it doesn't remove the core, meaning you can control the placement). Congratulations, you now have a hack-proof base. Even if you DON'T build your base this way and it gets hacked, simply get to the edge of your turret's range, and use your survival took (or drill if you have it) to drill a tunnel straight to the core, and core the base. It will just take a little longer. One final note on your last line: that dynamic wouldn't work, because once the base is hacked, the Zirax own it. The drones wouldn't be waiting to fire on their own base. If the Zirax were trying to blow up the core, then that might make sense. Finally, here's a list of all the ways you can defeat the drone waves at early levels. These were just off the top of my head; there's probably more: Build more turrets. You might lose one or even two with three rocket drones, but turrets are cheap to manufacture, unlock at only level 5, require virtually no power to run, and can effectively lock down their target completely, meaning the drone they are shooting cannot shoot back. If you don't have enough turrets, just build more. Intercept the drones with an SV. The drones are easily distracted (especially the minigun drones). Target the rocket drones with gatling guns on your SV, stay behind the other drones, and the wave will be dispatched in no time. Or, fly out to meet them before they get within range of your base (again, I've never had them spawn within range), and keep them circling you as you dispatch them. They'll never reach the base. This tactic will be harder currently since SVs are so twitchy. You'll have to use rockets. Simply snipe them. Sniper rifles are your early game friend. Hide behind a concrete block, shoot the drones as they come in range. The sniper rifle does a LOT of damage, and your turrets can easily finish the job. Distract them on your motorbike/small HV. Simply running around beneath them at high speeds will distract a few drones. While they're trying to hit you, your turrets tear apart the one or two drones which are left. Then bring the stragglers in where they are dispatched. Just keep moving fast and turn sporadically and they shouldn't hit you. And by far the easiest method: put the core underground. Simply take your survival tool, build a tunnel, make a right turn, and plop the core underground. It will take drones a VERY long time to reach it. If you have even two turrets, you should be able to weather a wave just fine (might lose a turret, but the drones will never get to your core). Finally, if you're not opposed to 'cheating', just use a multitool and retrieve your own core before the BA attack can happen, then replace it. I've never done this, but I would imagine that would reset the attack timer. If that doesn't work, the BA reset console command will do the same thing.
Nothing I posted is new information. Others have stated the same in threads about the base attacks not only here but also on Reddit. This is about a brand new base at the start of a game where at times, the very first spawn or two comes with multiple rocket drones. Those bases are never big, well built or defended. Its at the beginning of the game, within the first 4-6 days and you have no materials to have "more turrets". If you go back to my first 20ish posts, youll see its about a mega-base that was so large I needed to build a second base connected to it to complete it. It was about planet depth and how to build 2 bases next to each other. So I am more than aware about how to build a strong base. So, back to the context. The thread is about if base attacks are appropriate strength or not, and they are not, for small, early base's. It needs to be adjusted. Strength should be set to size + time in game at least up to a point. Perhaps a cut-off for time in game after 15-20 in game days to give players a chance to actually build up their base. This will also help "new" players learn the game.
