Question About Admin Cores

I have a question to anyone who has used an Admin Core in a randomly spawnable POI that is not part of any story / mission or services (trade, ship repair, quest-givers): what is the rationale for doing this?

If a POI is associated with a story/mission, or with some sort of services, the use of an Admin Core to make the POI effectively immune to damage (so that it cannot break game play by getting damaged or destroyed) makes complete sense to me. This was my understanding for how the Admin Cores were intended to be used and why they were introduced into Creative mode, oh so long ago.

However, I cannot fathom the rationale for putting one of these into a POI that randomly spawns according to the algorithm and has (apparently) nothing at all to do with any story / mission or services.

The provocation for me making this post is: playing on 420 Chill server; found a methane moon (sadly not one with a crust of rich minerals, just plain rock). Went to steal some promethium from the Zirax (heavy Zrx presence on the planet). Evaded the laser fire from the "Promethium Silo" near the ore site, touched down behind a hill and started drilling down to the ore about 175m away. Got to the ore, turned right to head over to the POI to poke a hole in its belly and check it out, see what it was all about. Long story short: totally immune to damage. No shield percentage indicator, just: 1800 15mm cartridges have zero effect on a combat steel block. Hrrmph, magical POI! I figured it was an Admin Core, but wasn't sure (it baffles me that anyone would do this so I almost find it unbelievable that there are such things in the game . . .this is Reforged Eden server by the way). So I asked on the Reforged Eden Discord thread and a user named "Stan" told me those POIs have an Admin Core in them. Okay, but why?

If it isn't already apparent, I find this design feature to be highly disagreeable. I thinkt it contradicts the open-world sand-box nature of the game and I would argue heartily to anyone to stop doing it permanently. Use Admin Cores for what they were most obviously intended for: to make POIs that are "REQUIRED" to maintain game play, i.e., POIs that host missions/story or services of some sort from getting messed up. Using them in an effort to force a particular approach to playing the game reflects a deep misunderstanding of what an open-world sandbox game is and it should be firmly and universally spurned by the community.

 

I love admin cores personally and will probably use them in the future, but not for every poi.

The problem is some poi's require some signal logic and there has been a history of people complaing they haven't been able to complete a poi.....because they've ended up destroying the very signal logic needed to progress through the poi. Not everyone likes to tunnel under a poi or make their own hole (despite there being a proper entrance).

So in such instances where the signal logic is of that nature then it makes complete sense to use an admin core poi. It allows us to do so much more when making poi's.

You can easily identify them as an admin core by looking on the map.

 

Just another Rant that won’t accomplish anything. If you’re don’t like the poi’s design one yourself.

 

I made those POIs when admin cores were the only way to set custom loot in a POI.
I've been slowly updating them with standard npc cores.

 

Wonderful to hear. If there is anything I can do to assist you, never hesitate to reach out to me. As I have said before, I have some C++ game development experience, though no experience with Unity and very little with C#

 

Just another senseless post worthy of ignoring

 

Absolutely the Admin Cores have an important role in the game, as I already discussed at length; and it appears we are in agreement:

Admin Cores in POIs that host story/mission or services? (and thus NEED to be largely or even totally impregnable to damage): A OK!

Admin Cores just tossed at random into POIs that have nothing to do with either story/mission or services and thus, should be completely destructible? Cheesy, lame, unfun and in breach of the basic principles of the game as an example of an open-world sand box game.

ADDIT: I do not recall if this POI was specially identified with the chevrons (I'm quite familiar with the icon), but I do not believe so. Just the standard upside down tear drop with dot if I recall correctly.

 

Even if using an admin core, the designer could still pre-damage many blocks to allow for alternative routes instead of relying completely on signal logic or forcing the player to scan each and every block with a multi-tool to try to find the "secret one". More work for the designer, but more fun for the players, and the POI can still have some indestructible sections if really needed, but at least players are not prisoners of the complete maze.

 

Here's the general philosophy I try to follow for my own personal POIs.

For mission POIs:
An admin core can be useful to guide the player along a preset narrative or mission. Especially in situations where if a player does things out of order it would break the mission.
For example destroying a switch or doing a POI before getting the mission, or as a find A then B then C mission to make sure the player finds them in the proper order.
I use an admin core in the derelict station so players can always obtain the mission item as an example.

For special admin POIs:
A POI such as a starter poi on a planet, or a trading station that gives out missions, etc.

A puzzle POI:
Things like the data caches in my scenario that require players to hack into them or a puzzle based poi like the abandoned tomb. If players could simply blast through the walls it makes the puzzles pointless.

For special encounters:
Maybe it is a standard combat POI but you need to prevent the player from just destroying it all. An example of this is the space elevator leading to the dyson sphere. There's no reason why players couldn't blast through the walls at the bottom except that it removes the challenge of having to fly down the elevator. It's a unique poi with a unique challenge that would be made super easy without an admin core.

For custom loot:
Before recently the only way to add custom loot to a poi was by using an admin core. Now it works with a standard npc core but some of my POIs were just not updated yet.

 

I understand where you are coming from but there is a flip side to this.
Why not go along the philosophy of 7 Days To Die, where you can take out a POI however you like? If you want to do the "Puzzle" maze or "corridor shooter" thing, then you can. If you want to bypass that and blow a hole through a wall, you can. A proper "sandbox" experience, by not limiting gameplay.

 

Because this isn't 7 days 2 die. They don't have ancient alien data caches you can hack into, or giant space ships with artillery cannons to blast holes in walls.

 

The principles are the same. There is an quest to find in the POI.
You can go down the POI made route, land on the roof and work your way down, start at ground level and work up, pillar up to half way and enter there, blast through walls with a rocket launcher if you want...... The choice is yours.

 

The fact is admin cores do have their uses and not just for story poi's or trading stations.

Admin core poi's that aren't either of those can provide a different kind of experience and as someone who builds some I have to say it appeals to me. The last Kriel poi I completed does not have an admin core and neither does the one before that. The next kriel poi I do will have one and no it's not a story poi, but it's something I hope to be a little different if eleon accept it. My current poi I'm working on I haven't decided whether it will be or not, it'll depend on what I do inside with the signal logic.

 

Although I fundamentally agree with your premise it is not exactly the same. I have yet to find in 7DTD a situation where if I destroy a POI and miss a story element I can not continue the story by repeating the quest. In project Eden, there are elliments that if missed or destroyed will prevent you from completing the questline. Using admin cores to prevent the inadvertent destruction of a story element is perfectly acceptable to me. Using an admin core because the author does not want the player to bypass their creativity suggests to me that they overestimate their creativity or the value of the loot/resources rewarded.

I always approach a new POI as if I know nothing about it, even if I have seen things about it on other sources, once concurred I will examine it for secrets and or alternate approaches. I will then use those secrets and alternate approaches in the future or ignore those POI that does not meet a threshold for time invested loot/resources rewarded.

 

Trying to keep in mind the other problems related to POIs apart from the need to railroad the player on certain routes, like the fact that turrets also benefit from the admin core's invulnerability, I think a modular approach would be best : have destructible defenses on separate parts of the building, breakable parts for most of the non-essential areas, and "vaults" or indestructible parts for quest essentials.

It would help to be able to precisely link these parts together, to avoid random placement that makes no sense for POI clusters. Maybe some parameter when saving POI blueprints, like "keep current relative position in group" when building the different parts, maybe with an anchor somewhere as reference. Then when the yaml spawns the cluster, it also precisely places all parts together like they were designed.

 

I will not be removing admin cores from my scenario.

 

Sounds legit to me. All the categories you listed are "special," in that they are either integral to a story or mission or some "service" that players should be able to expect. A good example of these categories (not sure which one, but maybe multiple ones) is Purgatory starter. The margin of error on surviving in that start is pretty thin (not as thin as many think, but pretty thin nonetheless). As long as you know what to do when, and don't have bad luck, AND all the "starter" POIs are working properly, it is merely a challenge to make it through a Purgatory start and out into the farflung galaxy without ever having died a single time (which is my "Gold Standard" for any level design: is it possible for an expert player to NAIVELY navigate the level/map/POI/starting scenario without every dying? If not then could be bad design . . . certainly if "meta-knowlege" of things like locations/timing/periodicity of hidden spawners/traps/tricks/ambushes is requisite to not die, then "bad design" is worth considering as an assessment . . . this of course makes achieving "good" design even harder than simply being clever which is why so few people bother to be creators for games like this, and even fewer do it exceptionally well . . . but I digress)

I only take issue when POIs that have absolutely nothing to do with any story or mission or service are made less destructible or less interactable/defeatable/exploitable in one way or another. An example of this would be something called an "Abandoned Fuel Mine." Seemed to have a land claim device or hidden core or something. Not a big deal when you encounter something like that infrequently, but based on commentary I've heard from dozen or more players in Discord, I am willing to bet that: IF POIs like that became more and more common, the player base would grow more and more frustrated and the popularity of the scenario would decline.

Everybody gets to do what they want. Creators can put invulnerability blocks into POIs for no apparent reason; players can stop playing particular scenarios/games/servers . . .

 

Since I was the one who started using Admin Cores in POIs I think, I have to tell you guys, that you miss the Multiplayer component completely, because it's very different there.
If your POIs (I speak of good POIs, not wreckages or other junk) have no Admin Core, couple of things will happen (I speak of a server with 50+ active players)

1. A (new) player is doing the POI the "normal" way, trying to clear each room and floor. Then a (veteran) player comes by, shoots his way straight through the Core, cause he knows where it is and ruins the experience of the new player. Of course he will steal the valuable loot from the new player as well (griefing). With an Admin Core this is more tricky to do.

2. The most important reason for Admin Cores in MP: there is a bug... or feature that if you destroy a POI 100%, every single block, every single device, every single voxel (Asteroids are POIs), that this POI will never ever respawn again. Even if it has the "RegenAfter" property set in the yaml.
The only way to get this POI back is with the "wipe <pf> poi" command. Now that means 2 things:

1. You have to run this wipe command regular. There is no dynamic check when to run it and when not. That means you could regenerate POIs while someone is doing it already. After a playfield restart/server restart that POI would be regenerated again and the player instant dies, cause he cleared the room before but it regenerated of course, with Aliens. Or the POI is gone for a while, some Player build their base at that location and after the restart, the POI is there again, clipped inside the Players Base - not good either.
2. If you run Scenarios like Reforged Eden, with 42000 Solar System = Over 200 000 Playfields available you can't regenerate all playfields blindly. I mean you could, I tried it too, but just sayin: good luck with your server performance. (Windows needs to inject the wipeinfo.txt file in all those playfields)

3. Now maybe you want this "Factorio" style - that POIs are farmed after some time, not regenerating and players need to move on to find untouched POIs. It would boost exploration but run that server for 2-3 months and new players will get pretty upset that there is nothing for them to enjoy POI wise at the beginning. So you are forced at point 2.

There are more important details of Admin Cores like using them in Instances and overall level design thoughts.
In the end it's the decision of the Scenario Creator and if using all tools available properly with good variety, you can make everyone happy for sure.

 

Actually this is due to the anti grief settings on the server and will affect any asteroid base. I set the anti grief to 0 in the default options but some servers override this, which prevents mining any asteroid rock on bases in space.

I believe the "device" setting now works for space playfields but as this was a recent change and I have not had a chance to update all my space playfields the anti grief settings still apply to space so the server admin either needs to turn it off, or live with asteroid bases being unlikeable

I also mentioned all this in discord but of course once a rumor starts it's nearly impossible to stop so I'd appreciate it if you could let others know it's the server/playfield settings, NOT the poi.
And that particular thing should be fixed for the next major update to project Eden.