Concrete vs Steel

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Arthmoor, Jan 17, 2022.

  1. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    But you are, and I was not addressing you. If you compare what I wrote to being an apologist downshouting almost every complaint made about the game, then you may be among those who tend to exaggerate all issues hoping this will pull the emotional string so Eleon will comply to all player's entitlement we see around here.

    I do critic some aspects of the game too, and diving a bit into "posts history" can help to avoid drawing silly conclusions. And there are ways to send a message when we want results. Constantly criticizing the developers is not one of these : they allowed us to make suggestions and give feedback on a game, not on their jobs and personalities.

    There are mentions of this in some threads, and I even have the audio reference (in the official youtube video where the CPU feature was first explained). You could have spared lots of typing by simply asking this first. You came in around october 2021 and discussions regarding CPU were dead long before that. All what you mentioned has been debated ad nauseam, so excuse me if I'm off duty to fill in the missing parts. Just make a few searches and you will find this.
     
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  2. ravien_ff

    ravien_ff Rear Admiral

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    The CPU system is not about server or client performance. It might be a side effect since it will generally mean players build smaller ships with less weapons but it's primarily a game balancing and progression mechanic.

    Size class and block limits are for server performance.
     
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  3. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    And clearly it was not enough, because size was not the only component of the problem : speed/ acceleration was what caused rubberbanding to have drastic effects and glitches, so there was a need for another limit, which had nothing to do with "balance". It's also the reason why top speed is determined by mass, instead of acceleration.Why RCS blocks has such insane CPU value vs weapons.

    I knew about "device limits" but "block limit" is new for me. Care to elaborate what this is about ?

    Someone already asked for links some time ago and I provided them, now I'm not going to do this with every new player dropping in here. Geostar1024, Piddlefoot are among some of the most prominent players who were jarred with the way CPU came in, and also many builders left the game at that time. This is old history now, and saying "it's for balance" 2 years after the fact will not change it.

    The main problem of this game in multiplayer is not "balance" it is "performance". This is one of the heaviest games I - and many others, you included - know about, and every limit Eleon tried to impose to fight this has been badly received by players. This was made very clear when players saw that structural blocks would cost CPU, and even you are against it.

    Instead of inferring that Eleon makes stupid decisions, I would suggest that you try to imagin that they did this with a very specific purpose in mind. Then what was said in the video makes lots of sense, and CPU for blocks too, even if it's not "logical" game-wise.

    Windows count for devices = Eleon is stupid ? No : they hear the players complaining about terrible server performance, and they try to act upon it. But players insist on making huge glass cubes...

    .
     
    #23
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2022
  4. Arthmoor

    Arthmoor Commander

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    I agree that RE has a better approach to combat and space ships and all that, but this topic was supposed to be about concrete on a planetary base, using vanilla game mechanics. I only wanted to know why the CPU was higher, and I accept the explanation that it's because concrete blocks have more HP on them.

    That said, I'm also firmly in the camp of not buying into inert blocks of any material type consuming CPU, so I tend to prefer playing with Reforged Eden myself. With RE, performance of the structure wouldn't be a concern since bases don't move so I don't see why combat vessels need to enter into things here. The parts you put in the base are what would matter, and on that front I think RE has struck a reasonable balance since you'll consume your CPU by trying to fill the thing with too many advanced items, rather than just because you tried to design an RP-friendly large functionless space in the middle of it all.
     
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  5. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    "Performance" relates to computer (server) strain/ efficiency for multiplayer games, not to game objects like ships and bases. In multiplayer, server owners have to regularly wipe the starter planets because bases number grows constantly until the point where server performance degrades. That is one reason why "base blocks" cost CPU (as a limit) so players will limit their size.

    Combat vessels and bases use the same blocks apart "concrete" (if not modded). There is no way in vanilla to distinguish if a steel block doesn't need CPU because it's on a base or if it needs CPU because it's on a ship.

    But just like all other game content, since nothing completely and perfectly replicates "reality", it's up to players to come up with explanations, like "pipes running inside blocks" and such, to justify CPU for structural blocks. Note that a simple line of text can go a long way to make things "acceptable".
     
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  6. Arthmoor

    Arthmoor Commander

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    Well, there kind of is. The game has numerous distinctions between BA blocks, CV blocks, SV blocks, and HV blocks. If you want bases to stop using CPU for inert blocks, you simply make inert blocks with no CPU requirement on bases, and have separate versions of those same size blocks for CVs. It's already something that's been split for CPU Extender blocks. So the ability to do this already exists in the game.

    So if the reason is supposedly because there's no way to do it, that's false. There is a way. It only becomes a question of whether the solution is acceptable to the game developers. If it's not, then yes, I'd say some sort of explanation for why a large chunk of inert rock needs computing power to be used. It would make a lot more sense to instead use energy requirements so that your base expansion is limited by the number of generators you can place. Since generators impact CPU, there you go. No sprawling metropolises.
     
    #26
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  7. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    I'm not saying it can't be changed. I simply wrote :

    Presently, and it has been like that since CPU exists, BA and CV have the same CPU for structural blocks. If you take "HullLargeBlocks" or "HullFullLarge" or "HullArmoredLargeBlocks" they all have "AllowPlacingAt: "Base,MS" and only concrete is reserved for bases.

    I never wrote that. You did not ask if it could be changed, you asked the reasons why things were like they were, in vanilla.

    .
     
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    Last edited: Jan 23, 2022
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  8. Arthmoor

    Arthmoor Commander

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    I wasn't asking for it to be changed (though I certainly would not object if it was). I was responding to your claim that there's no way to distinguish which blocks do or don't need CPU. You said there's no way to do that, but there is, and it's been done already in RE as an example. There is therefore no reason the devs couldn't do the same if they wanted to. They simply haven't told us if they want to or not.
     
    #28
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  9. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    English is not my mother language, but I think I'm not that bad at it.

    https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/distinguish

    "to notice or understand the difference between two things, or to make one person or thing seem different from another" (examples follow...)

    https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/change

    "to exchange one thing for another thing, especially of a similar type/ to make or become different" (examples follow)

    -------------------------------------------------

    So again : there is no way "to notice or understand the difference between..." (if a block is) being put on a base or a ship, hence requiring CPU or not. This has nothing to do with a claim that something can/ can not be "changed". From a player perspective, and not a "modding" perspective, there are only 3 Large steel Blocks stacks which can be both used on BA and CV, in vanilla, right now, and they don't "discriminate" when put on a base or a ship, they all have the same CPU.

    Now if you are asking "why does concrete cost more CPU than Steel" that is not even asking if something can be changed or not, and I do not make claims I clearly know are false because I mod my game too and have been for a long time.

    The developers already answered quite a few times in a few ways : we can disable CPU altogether, mod the config ourselves, or use the "Advanced Core". But given the reasons I already gave I think it was clearly their intent to leave it like it is. Players made lots of noise and many left the game in a fury, and it didn't move the devs one inch. I think this points towards what their intent was.

    In singleplayer we can do almost anything we want. In multiplayer, it's up to server owners, but players come here to ask the developers to fix something the server owner should be fixing himself, claiming that their desires are the will of the majority and should be adopted by everyone else. Fortunately we have forums so everyone can see this, and it gives everyone an opportunity to voice concerns about attempts to make the game to fit a handful of player's desires. If game performance degrades to a point it generates more frustration because too many BA on a starter planet than the CPU for structural blocks generates frustration then I guess it's not going to change for vanilla, unless the specific server owner makes the change himself, or the player mods his game or plays a scenario that fixed it.
     
    #29
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2022
  10. Khazul

    Khazul Rear Admiral

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    Slightly off topic (but under the broader related topic of artificial constraints).

    I have long played with modded CV weapons and tools that all work on planets and I see no reason at all why CV weapons are restricted in this manner. There is already a trade off between quickly and utterly trashing the place and not being to loot it much and more surgical destruction to allow for looting. Also there is the trade off of shield recharge time which is slow with a CV.

    Also, by late game I damn well should be able to quickly trash low level bases with an end game vessel.
     
    #30
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  11. ravien_ff

    ravien_ff Rear Admiral

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    Well the loot isn't an issue really. You just set your cv missile and laser turrets to target their turrets and after about 60 seconds you've stripped a drone base of it's shields and turrets. It renders almost all planetary defenses completely obsolete by only mid game.
     
    #31
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  12. Khazul

    Khazul Rear Admiral

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    Depends on the CV - I guess. I have never bothered to make a CV to specifically exploit my modding for mid game use in specifically trashing bases, but I can see that some would and get the point of your post. The same is true however with these lame skinny wiggle HVs too.

    The reality, until late game, I carry on using SVs and HVs for planetary base raiding despite that I could slap a bunch of rocket turrets on the bottom of a CV and do as you suggest.

    OTOH, people can switch limits off and stick 50 cannon turrets on the bottom and sides as well.
     
    #32
  13. ravien_ff

    ravien_ff Rear Admiral

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    True a bunch of cannon turrets does get the job done pretty quickly. But at least it's slower than the same number of missile turrets.
     
    #33
  14. Khazul

    Khazul Rear Admiral

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    True, but at end game? That is where my issue with the vanilla setup is. I do not give a damn about using a CV in mid game trash bases. It is later on when I am past caring much about the contents of the base that I just want it done quickly.

    By that time, really I should be able to very quickly and utterly trash a little base.

    Anyway, you talk of progression being messed up and granted, that may be true, but really, progression is kind of a mess anyway given that you can often get access to all end game resources in the vanilla starting solar systems with a warp capable SV.

    If the resource progression made more sense, that would balance the use of heavy weapons too early IMHO.
     
    #34
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2022
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  15. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    PvP.
    Also : "land claim device" and "offline protection", and maybe "you can not dig here" etc...
     
    #35
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2022
  16. Khazul

    Khazul Rear Admiral

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    Heh - well I for one care nothing whatsoever for PvP.
    PvP really needs it own set of rules if the such rules end up being detrimental to solo/co-op enjoyment. Quite a few games end up doing this.
     
    #36
  17. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    I wish you had been here 3 years ago to see the constant whining because players were too lazy to actively defend their bases against attackers. They wanted slower HVs too for opponents, longer range for their BA weapons, etc. When reading this all PvE players could see the upcoming consequences when dealing with POIs...
     
    #37
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  18. VulcanTourist

    VulcanTourist Lieutenant

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    I don't think Eleon had the resources to develop both an exceptional singleplayer and multiplayer game, neither side-by-side nor all-in-one, as they have attempted, in any sort of practical timeframe. Had they chosen to focus on just a singleplayer game, they probably would have had the resources to complete the RPG elements and even fix the bugs and refine existing features. There's also the performance aspect of trying to do both, which has made matters even worse as some existing features had to be dialed-back in an attempt to preserve tolerable performance for multiplayer gameplay.
     
    #38
  19. IndigoWyrd

    IndigoWyrd Rear Admiral

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    Steel has a standard density of 7.85 g/cm3
    Concrete has a standard density of 2.3 g/cm3

    Methinks someone got their information backwards.
     
    #39
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  20. Peter Conway

    Peter Conway Commander

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    LOL,
    This reminded me of the many times I've had my motorbike blown from under me when approaching POI's and scampered back to the woods as trees are vaporised around me... jumping and dodging shouting Umph, ahh, ohh, aurgggg. I'm going I'm going... But I'll be beck!
     
    #40
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