The way you explain this confines the issue to what we can reasonably call a "false dilemma" because there are more than the only two "options" you mention : either Eleon knows the issue and intend to fix it eventually, or they are lying. Another option would be that they know about specific issues that are properly reported and can / will fix these, and that other problems causing this stuttering have yet to be properly reported and investigated. As I wrote previously, Eleon cannot be held accountable for all PC configs and third party software issues, and unless these are also mentioned in bug reports Eleon can do nothing about it, or at best make guesses to propose solutions to players. I have to point out here that many players do not have very good computers and mostly play below 50 fps, and are satisfied with it, knowing the game is in alpha. Add to this that some players routinely spend their time building to the limit of what their machine can take, and that "stuttering" might arise for many other reasons that can't be isolated altogether. Making decisions regarding optimization, just for the collision "filtering" in voxel based games, seems to be quite an issue, and in the end only the ones actively developing the game have the best perspective on which kind of filtering should be applied, and to what extent. This is only one example where any feedback regarding the issue could be of very limited interest to the developers, since the players only see one aspect of the game at a time, while the developers are quite aware of all the possible odds and ends of changing anything in only one or two aspects regardless of the others. And of course, all we are doing here is pure speculation, so in that context there is no need to infer "lies" from the developers.
I apologize if I inferred that anyone was lying, because that is not my intention. It's just a very difficult job to play devil's advocate without taking any criticism.
I would like to re-center this thread on the reason why I decided to bring it back to life. ShmoeSOLID is actually spot on. This is a common issue that plagues all Unity games. I myself have been able to recreate the same issue with a significantly more complex environment than showcased on the video originally made by Shmoe. On a positive note, adjusting the physics update time-step resolved the majority of the problems just as Shmoe originally claimed. It would just be nice to know if this approach has been exercised by Eleon. If it has and it didn't work, that's OK! I would just like to hear any feedback at all. This can be resolved, Many other Unity titles have been optimized to workaround this fundamental problem with the Unity engine. NSZ
The problem is that because of Unity's open source nature, they allow developers to have complete freedom within the engine's capabilities. Meaning that a large amount of the final run-time optimization is left in the responsibility of the game developer, not the engine developer. What I am saying is that Unity is not broken, it just requires a developer to pay extra close attention to run-time efficiency, and optimize their game specifically for the optimal load based on their recommended minimum settings. This is the problem I have previously alluded to. If in fact the frame-stutter issue is related to the physics update time-step, which I am still not 100% sure it is, then it would not be Unity's responsibility to fix this. It lies in the hands of the game developer to fine tune the run-time efficiency of their final product. Obviously this game is in alpha and we are nowhere near the final product, but this how things are at the present state. I hope this doesn't come off as confusing, I am trying to be as transparent as possible, with this information that I know and have. NSZ
and you realize that at the top of this thread, Piddle's first reply alluded to the very issue you describe here?
It is all too easy to put the blame on Unity Engine. All I mean is that it is important to draw the line between who is responsible for what. sheesh.
Shmoesolid wrote : " From "James" via Eleon support email: "I understand exactly what you were saying, and this IS a graphics and render optimization which will occur in a future update, it is also related to the syncing factor in multiplayer scenarios as both single and multiplayer currently share the same files it is just a changed state to the way the files are processed which is different, changing the setting now will not fix this stutter as there are other factors involved as I said. It will get a fix, we know what causes it, but right now it is on a list and alot of other much more important bugs and features need to be implemented first before we can apply the full fix for this, otherwise fixing it now will only hold for a week or two before one of the other implemented features effects it again. As I said, game breaking bugs and the final back bones structure of the game WILL be implmented first before we fix this, it will be fixed though. James." I could make the argument that this is a core movement issue and NOT a graphics and render optimization, but I'll leave it at that. For now you can use a application like ASUS GPU Tweak to limit your frame rate to 50 and semi solve the problem. -------------------------------------------- I think whichever way Eleon will respond to this some players will never accept their answer. In these conditions why should they engage in replying to such presumptions if their answers are ignored? And from reading the last messages it seems there is not even any certainty about the issue being clearly related to physics (which complies with Eleon's answer) or any problem with Unity. The OP shows a total empty "game frame" with a few blocks, a camera and "off the shelf" collision, no AI and no network, yet someone proposes that this can be compared to Empyrion in its present state. Is this really serious ?
My conclusions are not based on, "empty "game frame" with a few blocks, a camera and "off the shelf" collision, no AI and no network." I will post more material if welcomed.
No textures, not even sure this 1st example uses voxel systems anywhere, no scripted models, no backdrop, no wind, no grass, no water, no fancy "building" functions with extensive menus systems and lots of entities running timers somewhere... no environmental effects, no fog, no music... not a lot requiring sync, no?
Shmoe has given us a baseline. You are correct, "No textures, not even sure this 1st example uses voxel systems anywhere, no scripted models, no backdrop, no environmental effects, no fog, etc..." Anyone here is welcome to take or leave the opinions expressed in this thread. Just remember that this effort has been put forward with the intention of giving everyone a better experience playing a game they love.
You know the old saying ? "The road to hell is paved with good intentions". Unfortunately "good intentions" are not valid arguments supporting an opinion, they merely try to introduce a favorable bias towards their author. And I disagree that opinions are to be "left" if not "taken" : they can be challenged when not supported by valid arguments, especially when formulated on a forum in a manner that points towards someone refusing to answer or plainly lying, namely Eleon here. Shmoe wrote directly to them and got his answer. Don't get me wrong here: in order to pursue in your search for an answer, my opinion (which you can challenge) is that you have no means of knowing what causes this problem except speculation from Shmoe, and an answer from Eleon. Why should we believe the first and not the latter? By the way, did you try contacting them directly?
Maybe contacting Eleon again directly is the next step... But, that is still a little way off. I refreshed this topic only a day ago. I will give a reasonable response time before I pursue anything further. After all, we have already waited 2 years. Whats a couple more weeks, right? It will all happen in due time. I'm sure Eleon did not intend to neglect this issue for so long. It just goes to show how complicated the issue may be. But in the mean time 1 year goes by since the last known verified information from Eleon, and we are left to continue our speculation and use workarounds. I just want more light brought to the topic. Please don't turn this into something negative. NSZ
May I suggest that instead of telling Eleon what you believe the problem and solution are, you could simply ask for any way to alleviate stuttering, if any? One year has passed, but many updates also, making lots of things more or less apparent along the way. Which makes me think you might well get the same answer that was given previously...
Quite likely, considering James original reply does still very much apply: Eleon still has far more pressing things to fix and implement before this "game breaking" bug with an easy temporary fix becomes even a priority, let alone makes strategic sense to fix. There is still a lot of the back bones structure not final, some of it still very much capable of messing up any kind of micro optimization fixes they would do now, like the removal of pole caps for example or, if they decide to tackle this beast, the ability to walk around in moving CVs. So this aggressive bumping of an old post without supplying any new info or contributions with the only intend to fish for an answer we already already have been given is pretty pointless.
From "James" via Eleon support email: "I understand exactly what you were saying, and this IS a graphics and render optimization which will occur in a future update, it is also related to the syncing factor in multiplayer scenarios as both single and multiplayer currently share the same files it is just a changed state to the way the files are processed which is different, changing the setting now will not fix this stutter as there are other factors involved as I said. It will get a fix, we know what causes it, but right now it is on a list and alot of other much more important bugs and features need to be implemented first before we can apply the full fix for this, otherwise fixing it now will only hold for a week or two before one of the other implemented features effects it again. As I said, game breaking bugs and the final back bones structure of the game WILL be implmented first before we fix this, it will be fixed though. James." This is the reply you will get if you contact Eleon again anyway. We are still a long way from Beta, a long way from fine tuning the game code to rid all stutter. The great thing is , in testing Unity with limited assets in the game, taking out all the unoptimized blocks with no or few LOD models all that, Unity is as smooth as a whistle, this is moving at 200 and 300 m/s, whats optimised loads freeking fast, which is very little atm in Empyrion, BUT ! Its a good sign for the engine itself IS capable of fast smooth movement on a grand scale. A lot of people hate Unity because of the fact a lot of developers use it and so a lot of code used in the Unity engine is not optimized properly, optimization takes craptons of time, only AAA games have those recourses before release. Unity is about freeing the ''little persons'' imagination and ideas and bringing them to life in a way that they can make a living off it, its damned clever. Some of the best games ever have come directly from Indie developers and Engines like Unity have made that possible. NineSevenZero is spot on though, our game devs are the ones who will optimize the most of this, Unity will optimize the code for Unity and with luck add proper SLI / Crossfire support, which would help a lot of games sim speed where they use the video card for physic's calculations. Unity gets updates a couple to a few times a year, its well supported and has tons of assets for developers. No game engine is ever going to be perfect, Real Life is the only perfect game engine....
