Alpha 7 - FAQ and Feedback: Mining

The implicit relation you assumed that I made. Your where not the only one. See #125. However the error here is your still trying to assume all negative reviews are about mining. Despite the fact that the quote was without comment. Dismissed in #137. However lets do it again here.

Not based only on mining. So you admit some of them are. Good becuase I hate you see throw out all data that does not agree with you.

Dude I not asking you to swallow anything. Even if i was an idiot. Respect you too much.

You just don't get the irony of the situation. I am cool with that. You know I could just dismiss the question with a single emoticon but I am not going to. Here this thing I am going to repeat #137 again. To change the subject I am going to admit that I am wrong. I can take a hit for the team here. That gets you off the hook and we can carry on a proper discussion about the game. Honestly at this stage I would jump through hoops to get back on 7.1 work.

 

I answered all this in my previous post.

The only mistake I made here was to reply too quickly before giving you a chance to explain why you quoted Steam. My following question to you showed I was clearly aware that the negative reviews were not only focused on mining, and you didn't like that.

So sorry for this, but I can hardly see another reason to quote Steam in the context of the mining thread than to support your position that "mining is broken". Just give me another logical reason to quote Steam here and I might change opinion, but for now this is precisely an implicit statement. Your admission that Taniyama also saw this implicit statement supports this argument.

Most people don't care about this and just move on. I could have done the same, but here I am not playing games to look nice, I'm only searching for truth in what I read, here and elsewhere, as well as in real life.

 

@Mulac : I read all kinds of things around here, many are stemming from anger or complacency, and I don't jump on these.

But when I read what you write, here and elsewhere, I am used to solid statements and interesting ideas. I was just a bit surprised here, so no point to make a big deal about this.

 

Truth is a three edged sword, your view, their view and always the middle, the real truth.

Or at least that's what I've learned.

Except of course when there are facts to back up that truth.

So true, we're here to have fun & help with ideas, but mostly to have fun!

 

@Taniyama : when I have nothing to do (more than usually that is) I get on wikipedia with words like "thought" or "fact" or "reality" and click on the blue words (links) in the first paragraph, just to enjoy the circular reasonings that are at the very base of human knowledge.

Of course we have to stop somewhere to make toasts in the morning or go to work.

 

True indeed but don't forget Spinoza as well when it comes to humans. “No matter how thin you slice it, there will always be two sides.” So compromise when you have to for the good of the mission.

 

Mining is boring and the new system just means I have to do more mining to get the same amount of resources that I could get in 6.7 by gutting a 15k+ ore deposit in 3-4 minutes with a mining HV.

It's easier in 7.0 to get more resources with T1 and T2 drills over what it was previously, but when you're comparing the quickest method in 6.0 vs the quickest in 7.0, then 7.0 is still slower. That and auto miners didn't deplete ores.

An alternative would be if I could use something like 3 HV turrets auto mining on top of a deposit, leave it parked, and it'll gut a deposit, while I run off and do something else. That would make mining less boring. If the new mining system was an effort to make it less boring, it missed the mark considerably. I would rather park a CV in the vicinity of several ore deposits, drop HVs off, go hit a few POIs while HVs gut ore deposits, then load up my HVs and get out of there. That's how mining can not be boring.

 

I've been playing Empyrion off and on for quite a while now and have mined in both the previous version (blob) and the new version (ssor) and I must say that my general impression of the new version is not very good, and while I understand the changes and why they were made, in my opinion it just takes way too much time to mine out an area with the new version. Not to mention the discombobulated tunnels that are created by chasing the ssor beneath the surface, makes it difficult to get back out of the hole created when mining with the hand mining tool. This adds more time to the process because I often have to dig my way back up to the surface, which is not fun.

I'd like to suggest something, and please pardon me if this was suggested previously by someone else, I read most of the posts here, but not all of them.

Instead of having all ore have the same type of sub surface configuration (currently ssor), maybe it would be better to have different types of ore have different configurations below the surface?

Iron might be in the new ssor configuration as Iron tends to be found in clumps, digging it out would create the wormy type tunnels that this configuration tends to create. While Promethium which is more of a crystal type formation would be in a long shaft type configuration more or less horizontal with the surface, digging it out would create long open tunnels under the surface. Perhaps Copper would be clumped together in the old blob type formation, etc., etc.

Anyway, I'm sure you get the idea. Some ore types can share configurations (crystal type ores = long shafts, harder ores = ssor, softer ones = blob) this would create different mining operations for different types of ore and require different approaches for each one. It doesn't removed the ssor and the challenges that it creates, but it does relieve the burden created by it because it doesn't affect all ore.

I'm not sure how this would affect game resources as far as running the game, etc. but I think it would add a new aspect to mining and still allow those of us who actually utilize some of those excavated mining areas for underground bases to do so.

Also, as far as the new ore scanner goes. Not a fan at all. It seems you went to almost extremes to "make things easier for new players" by simplifying the amount of ore available (removing Magnesium from starting game) renaming bullets to make them easier to understand, etc. and then you add a new device which, imo, does not make things easier at all, it makes them more difficult by having to utilize another toolbar slot. The scanner should be a built in part of the mining tool.

Anyway, these are just my opinions and I hope they help. All in all, I do love most of the new changes, but some of the mining changes not so much.

 

Tried a new scenario tonight on easy. I mined out a huge hole without a scanner and got about 300 ore with two T2 drill packs. Went to get promethium and started mining. Got nothing after a few minutes and just closed the game. I think I'm done with this until something changes. Yes, I started a creative game. Made a few things and flew around. No POIs to fight, so I just logged out.

 

After playing a bit in singleplayer i can provide some feedback.
I have started the game with plenty ore deposits and them be rich. Other things don't make sense to me. The deposits could be a little less frequent so i might concider to start with fewer but rich deposits.
I didn't use the T1 handrill for other things than breaking surface rocks because it is just slow and tedious. After getting to build the T2 handdrill i went to chase some ores with the orescanner in the backpack. Afer locating the deposits i start to tunnel for it. And i was suprised that i find it kind of entertaining to drill tunnels that chase the ore but are drilled in a way i still can get out easily. My only gripe is, that although you have to chase ore as little stones burried in the ground it is actually kind if tedious to drill the tunnels. Drillspeed is from a time where ore was voxel terrain and doesn't seem to fit with the new system. It isn't actually hard or challenging at all. Just tedious.
On the flipside, i didn't bother with the HV drilling since going up and down with it is way to much of a hassle and drill power doesn't seem to add up so the speed doesn't really seem to change, you just drill in a wider area if i compare 1 to 6 fixed drills.

In order to not mess too much with the HV handling i actually have a small suggestion to fixed drills:
The HV can stay leveled following the terrain and still going downwards IF the fixed drills are gimballed so you could aim to a slight degree when using the drills (activating/firing). I think 15 to 20 degrees in all directions could be enoungh.

That and a better speed / speed multiplayer while working through terrain if using more than one. So not only increase the drills radius but also let the damage multiplay with more drills (if thats already the case, i would like to suggest => double it).

 

We currently run a mp server hosted at nitrado. Default survival scenario. Nothing changed or added from our side. We turned automining depletion off (false) but it doesn' t work. After an hour or so the miner starts depleting the ressource. The automing itself seems to be setup correctly in the yaml file as it does work for some time. It simply starts depleting ressources after a while. We used autominer t1 and 2. I can provide whatever files you need. I' just need to know exactly wich ones as there seem to be so many log files.

 

Hey. First of all, the Voxel to SSOR change. In theory, if added in a more... elegant fashion, it could have been a good change. The problem, well... the problems are as follows. All IMHO, obviously.

-The beginning of each game is basically a roulette. You could land near a nice promethium deposit and start digging right away, finding your first SSOR by sheer luck in a couple of minutes - plus finding and cracking open a lot of nice rocks and getting all the ore you need for an HV... or at least to build a constructor. Or even a motorbike. Some times, though, as it seems to be the case with every game I start (and abandon, because there's no fun to be had in the first hour or so anymore, just stress and grind) the small rocks are basically either a minigame of "run around like a headless chicken mining every one of the rocky formations until you have enough ores for a mini-HV" or "find yourself in a position in which you can't possibly hope to survive either because the promethium deposits are too far away, usually sitting next to a well defended POI or due to the fact that this is, in fact, an ENORMOUS time sink compared to the relatively straightforward method we had before."

Seriously, in 5 separate starts (normal difficulty, Omicron start) these were the outcomes.
-Not enough promethium for either bullets or oxygen production, since I have a mini-HV and all 4 promethium deposits are heavily guarded by POIs.
-Same as above, add in a "Patrol_Easy" CV camping the initial "wreckage" base and you have a wasted hour.
-Used a grand total of eleven "packs" of biofuel to mine a promethium "deposit, digging a hole so large you could fit a damn CV in it. Not even a single rock. Abandoned due to head banging against the wall.
-Nice start, ran around picking up lucky rocks - found out that, unfortunately, cobalt doesn't seem to exist in this seed - just three small deposits sitting next to multiple POIs, including the Drone Base. Two hours wasted.
-Lucky as hell, after three hours I have a little attack SV, a nice mining HV with a defensive turret and my base is looking great. I try my old HV mining "buggy" and I find out it's a nightmare finding and mining those SSOR. A real nightmare. If it's going to be this way, either scrap the HV mining for something more interesting/fun or think about a more Space Engineer-like mining solution, like a "docking on terrain" block for an HV that allows you to mine with retractable mining "arms."

-The scanner. Ahhhh, the scanner. Let me be really clear, I still have high hopes for the game, but this was - again, purely IMHO - a silly idea implemented in the worst way possible. Imagine being in an escape pod. Ever seen a Star Trek episode? Or read pretty much any sci-fi series/book/novel/short story? You need: oxygen and a way to create more. A scanner to locate mineral deposits / lifeforms. Food and medical supplies. Materials to build a shelter. Maybe add a communication device or a distress beacon to signal for help. Here, you start with a chainsaw. A very, very conveniently placed abandoned shelter with no one around. And a drill with no scanner attached. Why? There's absolutely no reason, unless you have the multiplayer in mind and are like: "If they want to change it, they can change the yaml." This goes alongside the dreaded WEAPON KIT as the things you added that actively HAMPER gameplay and enjoyment while making no sense at all.

-Autominer. I really don't care much about it, I always seen it as a lazy way for large multiplayer faction to gather minerals, nothing more. It makes sense, but again - I'd rather have a proper mining system in place. If I wanted the game to play itself I'd ask my nine year old cousin and ask him to mine stuff instead.

That's pretty much my opinion on the mining situation. I'd suggest to reconsider the whole change, for at the moment we really don't need a boring, grindy start - no matter the difficulty. A starting motorbike, a built-in suit mineral scanner (upgradeable) and the return of those sweet ingots at the beginning, at least to build a mini-HV would temporarily fix the issue and not scare away new players. The 7.0 changes are one of the reasons Steam ratings are dropping.

 

In my opinion the mining update is completly demotivating. I just stopped mining deposits and started mining stones - higher output !!!??? - and then quit for guess 3 weeks now...

 

Just an idea : what if the whole "ore" thing was a simple property of the ground, anywhere, with greater concentrations in definite regions / spots, instead of being tied with these "ore blob" objects ?

The whole ground is deformable, but mining forces players to dig holes in specific places for no reason other than getting the ores. If all ground was to contain different amounts of ore, players could simply dig anywhere or even just "skim" at the surface, but with vastly different results: better in specific regions indicated in the map (some radius around a center point) and very small amounts everywhere else, at random. Putting an auto-mining device on the ground anywhere would still yield something, but the price in fuel would prevent from putting the AMD outside of a "ore rich region".

Can this system work with renewal of the resources? Resource is everywhere, but in greatly varying amounts. For "tunnels" dug by players, if they do not include them in a "base" and put blocks in them (floor / ceiling / wall) they could simply "collapse" after a while because "not supported", so thios could account for the playfields "resetting" their original status after a while.

Having the "resets" done without tying them to a game mechanic can pose a problem to players who like to dig holes just for digging, so if they properly make some "bases" to link these tunnels to something, these tunnels will not collapse and would be spared from the ground "regeneration".

 

I have been playing on an off for the last few years, and I have been interested to see the changes evolve.

First of all, I have only played single player, and recently only started on Akua.

I found the old blobs grindy and really boring. I love these SSORs, I have the ore scanner equipped, I just chase the ore. I like creating crazy tunnels chasing ore. I like having to plan my exit from the mine, it adds some interest to an otherwise grindy part of the game.

Having said that, I have never used mining turrets or auto miners, so maybe they are not so neat for that.

Anyway when you come to decide whether to keep them, stick this reply into the positive pile.

 

I can't say i like the new mining system over the old one, but i don't really have a problem with it in general. Mining without a scanner is just punishing though, but i guess that's for people who like hard starts. I will say that HV mining, while technically doable, is very painful. If it wasn't for the lava planets, i probably wouldn't do it at all. To the point that i'm considering designing a SV with enough roof space to deploy a drone just to bypass it entirely. Also, if the mining turret could angle up and down more it would be nice

 

It probably would, wouldn't it? Sorry.

Assuming flat ground, you need to start digging at an angle down. I know you can lock your orientation, but that doesn't necessarily help. A you dig down and bounce around on the terrain, the tunnel leading back up becomes more uneven which affects movement and potentially makes it too steep to just reverse out of. Figuring out even your relative orientation becomes harder, freelook helps but you get funny camera angles being in a tunnel sometimes. Then when you reach the right depth, you need to try and 'level out' although you're basically facing down so you can get to the ore without continuing to dig under and past them. Then when you're finished, you need to exit which means digging a big enough hole to turn around in (since your drills face forwards and moving on the terrain is difficult, you may need a turret) , or reversing out which is problematic if you run into something like too steep an incline.

The hv i designed for mining isn't much more than a cockpit, engines, mining drills and mining turret. It's small and maneuverable, but even then it becomes problematic in a tunnel. If something happens, i rely on the turret to try to dig my way clear. The range on the turret feels very short, and i can only angle down so far which sometimes isn't enough. Like i said, i can do it, but the whole process just feels really painful compared to digging with a drone/digging yourself. Digging yourself, even if you dig a vertical shaft you can still easily dig your way back up as long as you have enough fuel packs. Getting a hv into the tunnel isn't the problem, moving the way you want to go once you're in there is. So in the meantime, i've designed a new sv that is designed to let me drone mine (and fills the new intermediate warp-sv step between obtaining a barebones sv and obtaining a barebones cv).

 

Why the old mining was good: It allowed you to efficiently clear a known area of resource in a reasonable amount of time. I only ever mined by hand until level 10, then never again. HV with from pointing drills are a pain to control, but it effectively gets me the ore I need to build stuff.

New Mining is bollocks: First, I need to find the rocks in the deposit, which means time and fuel going through worthless dirt. Then, once I clear a rock, I need to repeat. This slows it down considerably.

Mining needs three changes:

1. HV (and SV) need to use thrusters to hold angles / positions vs gravity. If I'm on a 45 degree slope, and have more than 20m/s accleration to the sides and rear, there is no reason to slip down. This will make drilling in / through stuff much easier.

2. HV turrets need to auto track and auto mine. I want to have it simply burn through to where the rocks are, and burn down the rocks. I'd love if CV mining turrets did the same. Why can every other turret in the game work autonomously but these? Mining is not fun, let us bypass as much as possible.

3. Playfield generation needs altering so that upon game start, all kinds of ore are roughly easily accessible to the player, and not within turret ranges of POI. It's a waste of a spawn when the nearby promethiums are all covered by alien turrets.

I play exclusively SP, and I like building big things, and do not like the time / resource ratio of mining.