Aluminum (Al): It Exists

Discussion in 'Other Discussion' started by Blaine, Dec 6, 2017.

  1. Blaine

    Blaine Commander

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    Or as some people call it, "aluminium." (You can blame Sir Humphry Davy, who discovered the element and initially named it "aluminum," Webster's Dictionary, or the scientists who later changed the term for the divergent spellings.)

    This isn't in any way meant to be a serious thread. It just strikes me as amusing and inexplicable that Empyrion and several other starship- and/or space-based sandbox games utilize elements like iron, cobalt, copper, nickel, lithium, etc. as resources, yet the premiere metal used for high-tech aerospace alloys—aluminum—is often absent. In fact, I can think of only one game that includes it.

    Feel free to air your personal theory here. This isn't a disguised demand to include aluminum in Empyrion; they're just game resources, so ultimately it's not important. I do find it funny though that we have several fantasy resources (Zascosium, Erestrum, and Promethium), but not several very common elements.
     
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  2. Mortlath

    Mortlath Commander

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  3. Pyston

    Pyston Captain

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    Its also found in such low quantities that if it were a digestible element (I know its not), the calories burned to extract it would far out weight the calories it would provide for sustenance.

    Although a real element, using it the way the game presents it is completely fictional.

    I also support the inclusion of aluminum.
     
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  4. Kieve

    Kieve Rear Admiral

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    Probably because most games are combat-oriented, and while Aluminum makes a great lightweight alloy, it's generally not the best choice for a combat situation - people want tough Steel, which means using Iron. I'm not saying Aluminum doesn't have a place, but since you brought up "high-tech aerospace alloys," consider that those space-age ships generally aren't being shot at. If you're proposing aluminum alloys for ship hull construction (and thus, block-building), consider that aluminum blocks would be weaker/softer than Steel, and you'd basically be making your ships and bases out of lightweight half-melted cheese.

    Now for devices / tech / deco use, I'd absolutely agree that it would be a worthwhile inclusion. However, one of the things you might've noticed with the progression changes is that the devs are trying to kinda "streamline" things, cut down on the amount of needed ores, smooth out template requirements, etc, so it's unlikely they're interested in adding another ore type to the mix.
    (There was a point early on, they briefly considered switching Iron to Aluminum, but that didn't go over very well, for the "steel is stronger" reasons above).
     
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  5. Pyston

    Pyston Captain

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    And yet the best fighter plane on the planet is made of aluminum, titanium and composite's.
     
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  6. Kieve

    Kieve Rear Admiral

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    Most planes are. But they don't hold up too well to homing missiles.

    ...I guess I invited that one, since I wasn't clear enough what "combat situation" means in this context. So, to clarify:
    -For real life, that would be "KEEP FLYING, DON'T GET SHOT." Fighters can take some damage - the A10 Warthog is notoriously durable, and I once read a story of a F15 that managed to fly home minus an entire wing - but survival isn't about being able to take a hit, it's about avoiding one. Better yet, avoiding giving your enemy the opportunity to take that shot in the first place.
    -For games - EGS and others - ships (or their blocks) have arbitrary HP units, and can tank a certain amount of weapon-fire before losing integrity. In that context, developers and most players will tend to think towards armor plating and what can take a hit - or for ships with "light-weight composites" and high agility, lower HP and a more fragile airframe.
     
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  7. StoneLegion

    StoneLegion Captain

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    Be nice or you all getting some coal for Christmas.

    coal_PNG14.png
     
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  8. Jᴧgᴧ

    Jᴧgᴧ Rear Admiral

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    [​IMG]


    I'm going to guess that Xeno Steel is taking the place of reinforced aluminum in the game. Much lighter despite being stronger per unit of weight. If Alumin(i)um was added, it would end up being a middle-tier material.
     
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  9. Fractalite

    Fractalite Rear Admiral

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    Because the idea flopped, I feel like I am not treading on the NDA.... at least, god I hope not; I generally like information, creativity, and perspectives so I thought I would chime in with an interesting occurrence that happened "behind the scenes."(as it were)

    @Blaine you are asking "Why is aluminum not in the game" while tucking other elements into that query and @Pyston you asked very specifically:

    To both of these I can answer: they did try. It was a very good attempt too - very neat names and concepts. Iron was replaced by Aluminum. Silicon and Cobalt I believe remained in and they replaced the rest with the elements like "Germanium," "Coppertonium," and others... actually, the more I think about it the more I am remembering - silicon and cobalt may have also been replaced. You get the point; a change away from the iron age, and more into the future/space age, etc.

    The response, was stunning.

    There were a few like myself who practically flung themselves out of spaceships in the escape pod to go an investigate the new elements, but the majority(hard numbers are in the 66 - 80% range) had a really hard time with it.

    I will not go into details, but as someone who, a few weeks ago, told Eleon to "grow a pair" :) I think I am uniquely suited to say that Eleon has a history of replacing some really good changes/ideas via the complaints of the vocal. I do not think they realize that it can be damaging to creativity, their game universe/storytelling, and exploration as a result.

    In this instance, the "loudly vocal" lacked the imagination to transition away from the iron age(even despite aircraft with aluminum chassis, iron and steel are still more emotionally familiar to some - people like to be "experts,") and opposed the new names. The outcry was.... energetic, and blessed with a staggering lack of imagination.

    So this fun little indy game tread into a broader problem that exists in society right now, and became a reflection of it. I do not think there is anyone to "blame" it is just a hard reality; if you want to sell a game players need to be able to recognize the elements and many, many players(even those who think very highly of themselves with respect to intelligence/fact-finding) just do not realize their confines.
     
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    Last edited: Dec 22, 2017
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  10. Pyston

    Pyston Captain

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    I would have had a hard time with germanium, coppertonium or anything like that. But aluminum?!? I mean for christs sake, aluminum is one of the most recognized metals in the world. I personally do not see why aluminum and iron can't coexist in the same universe, but I guess that's me.

    Thank you for the insight, I hope you are not punished for this. I wish I was treated as equally when I tell them to "grow a pair", instead every build I have on the workshop gets down voted (oddly all by the same amount, at the same time during certain events when I was publicly silent) and I am blacklisted from the community...and if its not them, its someone in the ranks pulling strings.
     
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  11. Fractalite

    Fractalite Rear Admiral

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    Edit: Decided to edit my post for clarity. I seem to be beset by the same abovementioned forces again. *sigh*
     
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    Last edited: Dec 23, 2017
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  12. Brimstone

    Brimstone Rear Admiral

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    If they really wanted to be accurate with space-age materials, it would be aluminum, titanium, advanced ceramics and carbon composites... drives me nuts every time I go into the constructor and see "nanotubes" made from steel. Although not as much as cartridge propellant made from plant fibers o_O
     
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  13. Pyston

    Pyston Captain

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    I agree. Makes no sense to pull out materials people know or can relate to in regards to spaceship construction but then implement plant fibers into ammunition when although its technically true, its the same reason germanium, Coppertonium did not work in the private test. Most people think gunpowder, not plants.
     
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  14. Hummel-o-War

    Hummel-o-War Administrator Staff Member Community Manager

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    The exotic-sounding materials were just name-replacements and did not follow a changed material progression - so they were merely confusing, but not contributing as JUST a name replacement.

    Never the less, there was quite some effort spend on this (and we have kept a few things for future interations) but the feedback on the acutal change has clearly shown that the names itself were not the problem, but there was a serious disconnect between what people expected these materials to do.

    So if you use exotics names, you expect exotic things .. but that did not work out, as the things we could do with the materials were also just "renamed" and did not match the expectation.

    We might add more materials and ores in the future. At the moment, there is not need to over-complicate things.
     
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    Last edited: Dec 23, 2017
  15. Hummel-o-War

    Hummel-o-War Administrator Staff Member Community Manager

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    PS: removed personal chatter. Please stay on topic. Thx. :)
     
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  16. Brimstone

    Brimstone Rear Admiral

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    In the scheme of things, sathium kinda subs for titanium, and zacosium/erestrum sub in advanced electronics like gallium/iridium and such... but the imaginary ores just feel off to me... just my $0.02, I'll still play the game with them.
    "Guncotton" hasn't really been used except by hobbyists since the late 19th century and it would make a lot more sense in game if low tier weapons were simpler like revolvers, bolt or lever action, etc. The constructors are making advanced semi-auto weapons which would probably need the extra kick of smokeless powders or the more modern RDX-based propellants to cycle the next round... for that and most composites, you need a source of carbon... but then, we already do have bioplastics from corn (and algae and others... Maybe we need to be able to farm seaweed, too ;))
     
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  17. Hicks42

    Hicks42 Rear Admiral

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    Meep! and I mine this stuff with a drill?

    In all seriousness some continuity to the sidereal universe materials would be nice. Even if they have archaic or synthetic names.
     
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