This. It works for a lot of other games. It's a familiar mechanic, and is instantly visible. Multi block containers can have several pages. I feel that volume is an important factor for immersion and balance, but I don't want to see it made into another spreadsheet function. Having that aspect is enjoyable for certain aspects, but please take care to avoid requiring an engineering degree to play the game. I have the degree... don't want to take my work home!
Raided my first POI with Volume On on Arid, overall impressions from whole game, progress and issues: 1, Pre-HV stage isn't affected much. I did run into volume limit once, but didn't felt limit was 'pressing issue'. Limit did made me mind my inventory and I rushed HV construction, but overall it wasn't too restrictive (it probably feels more restrictive on temperate, but that still should be a plus). I ended up barely using Contructor for storage, simply spawned tier 0a for my first HV and added couple containers (really should have crafted something with cabin... radioactive fog with 0 meds was not fun) 2. HV to BA stage was a mixed experience. With volume limit it was not possible for me to gather and transport all needed resources personally, so I used HV to carry a lot of stone, a bit other resources, water e t c... Crafted over 6 hundred concrete blocks plus all needed machinery. So far so good, needed only couple trips and a bit of time. Note: I know that contructor will get volume limit soon, but I could have used wrecks' containers or spawned a core just for containers, but decided not to do it this time. For the sake of testing virtual toolbar+volume I spawned only lowest tier, solar powered prefab BP, added tank+ventilator to not to worry about oxygen/fog and proceeded to build the base manually. And here I run into limitations hard. - Had to use virtual toolbar to move resources from constructor, but this likely will get fixed (perhaps constructor should be throwing thing to the ground/closest container, otherwise work right from players inventory ]:-> ?) - The next biggest inconvenience was BA 1x2 container not being capable of storing even third part of prepared blocks and machinery, so during construction I run out of blocks and had to 'ressuply' at constructor which was inconvinient and I had no access to CEs yet. Granted I did not need a base that large right of the bat, but I imagine issue will be even more noticeable once in-world constructor will get volume limit. Will we have to build 10 blocks, place them, order 10 more? That's going to be frustrating... I also could have placed more containers and start moving blocks between them, so I probably could have handled it better as well. - Third inconvenience was not volume related but virtual toolbar related - building takes time, so I had to run for food couple of times (no fridges yet) and each time I had to go out of range and then rearrange virtual toolbar again Overall experience for this stage is negative in relation to A8: I understand that preventing player from looting/mining too much too early is necessary, but currently construction is affected too much and building in survival already is inconvenient as is, it doesn't need more road blocks. Hopefully will be fixed in some way. Suggestions: take a page from SE, let us place 'truss' blocks and then upgrade them to needed ones, or at least provide bigger early BA containers) 3. First non hostile POI looting Used HV to loot an 'old base', looted some compact things only to discover that HV can barely move due to weight. That was new, switched to next level of hover thrusters, added directional thrust and RCS as result, somewhat enlarged HV. Second run to same base: placed a core and used looted tool to retrieve blocks to bases' container with intent to transport them later only to find that all of them sans med station and ventilation are over both my and HV inventory volume (I was level 6 at this point, but had no points to unlock it yet). I know that there will be CEs later, but this is still seriously wrong, at least some equipment should fit into low level HV as long as it can lift mass of the block. I was able to fully mine 3 small ore deposites to this HV (after upgrade of hovers) without issues, yet can't carry single block. *Encountered a lot of volume related bugs at this stage 4. CV Started to grind and exploring until lvl7, once reached immediately threw retrieved blocks from encountered pois (one base and one crashed vessel) into simplest CV BP with dozen containers (actually could have crafted one even without lvl7 thanks to all those thrusters from crashed CV). Added two turrets. Once done fueled with what I gathered from POIs and went to closest promethium deposit and then moved everything from POIs I previously could not loot fully. In couple runs (because mass) everything was looted fully and in containers at my base. Ended game up by 'bombing' hostile POI from height and then looting it to CV. Since CV was made from carbon blocks and not under load it was Very agile and could dodge as good as SV, turrets did the rest. Summed up impression: Negative, but I encountered nothing unfixable. Notes: Fueling HV became a bit annoying, previously I could carry around half a stack of fuel and not to worry about it since refueling was relatively fast, but now I need to goto base to refuel, from one point it is good - HV shouldn't be too independent, but from another point, constantly switching through logistic containers is not fun, I fell like either 'fueling bay' or larger tank capacity is needed, same for oxygen. In my usual play through I usually build HV then SV, visit a moon e t c and only then build an CV as kind of mobile base/carrier, but this time around most of uses for HV/SV were neutered since they usually can't carry a single 500SU block despite having over 5K capacity and there were very little reason to extend capacity with CEs since they 1) grant very little capacity compared to CV. 2) reasonable volume will increase passive power consumption over passive consumption of a CV. I guess HVs still have a role of planetary mining vessels, and SVs still can act as cheap fighters to take on turrets. But they lost a lot of independence. Sometimes I used HV for raiding pois since it can defend itself, but now this is pointless - I will need a CV to loot POI and CV also has turrets. I was using SV for small scale mining at moon and gathering output from autominers but this role is also gone now. From my point of view there is unreasonably huge gap between BA/CV and HV/SV containers - HVs and SVs desperately need containers comparable to CV's 1x1 containers in size and volume and HV needs more thrust-options (it has S, M=2xS, and Jet=1.125M) to move all that mass. Bases and CVs will also win from non-CE larger containers. Personally I avoided using BA/CV CEs so far since I feel like energy consumption is silly (and because I reached level 7 relatively recently), it is easier to 'f' couple 1x2 containers, but they might have their uses as output for large construction queries. P.S. Capacity of BA/CV oxygen tank needs to be adjusted to be much bigger, it holds only 1000 units, yet HV's holds 400. HVs/SVs are more often personal, but CV and especially bases need a lot of oxygen storage. HV/SV storage might be also smaller then it should be - 1x1 container can hold more than tank. I feel like 'specialized' storage should be more effective then 'universal' one, tank should hold more then it holds now, container need to store less.
To take that further, many components could be done this way, perhaps with a commercial vs. military application. Along the lines of Firefly class vs. X-Wing.
I had a thought that probably will be addressed with balancing tweaks, but it seems odd that HV and I think SV cargo controllers and extenders have less volume then my back pack, looking at them the should have at least as much space as my back pack does if not easily 2 to 4 times . Does this seem odd to any one else or just me?
Not sure what the Volume of my Knapsack is, I still think the container controllers and extenders should also be larger I not sure I would want to make the backpack much smaller 100 su seems kind of small to me. Edit Just checked my nap sack at it is 29 litters. how that relates to SU I not sure. yet it is molly compatible so I can add stuff to it. which will extend its storage compacity some what. as well some things like my bed role ground sheet and even a small tent would not go in it but be attached to it, I do wonder about some things that would presumable be holstered like your side arm taking up space in your nape sack as well as things that would lily go in pouches are your belt and harness such as ammo that would presumable be in magazines in magazine pouches where you can get at it, and not in your nap sack at all
1 L = 1 SU (the volume units got renamed). In any case, the masses and volumes of all items have yet to be adjusted; with appropriate values, 100 SU might well be more than enough.
And about the things that would not be in your knapsack any way? like your side arm and your ammo magazines?
One could consider the player's inventory to be an abstraction of everything they could possibly carry no matter how/where it's stored.
that would make some since and explain why its larger. interested in seeing what they do with it in the end
After a week of playing the new Alpha 9 system. I have to say that although I can adapt the Volume and Weight limits and there are parts of the logistic system I really enjoy. Some parts of the logistic system can be very immersive. I know there will be some rebalancing of the volume and weight system BUT the Volume and weight limits MUST BE A OPTION in the main menu that is off by default or a option that Admins of Multiplayer servers can only activate on their servers because I still believe this is going to be a deal breaker for a lot of causal gamers if volume and weight limits are on by default. Casual gamers are always in the majority. Most of the time they're looking to play a game with a little survival not a game with a logistics system such as this one. I'm seeing videos on youtube and reading comments of people talking about quitting because the game is becoming too much like work. Which I can understand that point of view. I just don't want Empyrion being a Space Engineers 2.0 where half of the gamers leave the game because of "too much realism". Listen to the first few minutes of this video where this gamer who LOVES EMPYRION talks about his opinion of the Volume and Weight limit. I know it's just one guy but there are a lot who feel the same way he does. He starts the video out talking about how much he doesn't like the whole entire logistic system. He starts talking about the logistic system at 0:05
I think even having it on by default would be fine if it was easy to turn it off in the difficulty options. with out having to manually Edit a settings file..... that being said I hope there is a plan to change where the Wight in a vehicle is calculated, Right now it seems the Wight is all calculated in the controller unit. rather then destubedted throw the Expansion blocks, is this a limit of the Engine or is this something that is planed to be addressed?
The guy in the video is my hero. Summed all this nonsense up perfectly. I like the idea of logistics and automation, but it should be an extension of the systems they already had in place...not a replacement. And adding volume and weight is by far the dumbest of these changes. A game like this thrives on action and creativity, not realistic simulation and inventory management.
Something similar to the above is going on with Weight and Volume as well: The UI is fighting the new concepts. Each item is still represented on screen in the old way: As a square icon with a stack size. Having a volume indicator for each Inventory with a progress bar toward being full is a good step, but it needs to be taken further. When players are in a game with volume active, the default view NEEDS to give a clear, immersive breakdown of which items are taking up how much volume--at a glance. People are used to items moving as chunky stacks, but the UI has been shaped by the slot/stack mechanic as well. If volume is to ever be an intuitive, appreciated part of an immersive overall experience, the UI must adapt when volume is enabled, to allow items and their volume to flow naturally and visibly. Without a clear UI reflecting the differences in behavior (on a per-item basis) between games using the stack/slot system and games using the new volume system, volume is doomed to cause pain and resentment for all but the most abstract-minded, math-focused players.
Personally: I'm still skeptical of the entire idea of implementing Volume when Stack Sizes are a good proxy for it with a familiar behavior spanning generations of video games. Cargo mass is an easily toggled behavior with engineering implications that affect vehicle handling. I'd be fine with it as a new option, despite the resulting fragmentation of the workshop. Volume is adding a second layer of realism, without much gameplay difference. Mass and volume are, to varying degrees on a per-item basis, proportional. ...In fact, attempting to do both mass and volume at the same time means the UI problems above are twofold: People need to be able to answer TWO new questions: "Which items are taking up so much mass?" and "Which items are taking up so much volume?" -- because there can and will be differences. The UI is already struggling with half of this, and has no concept of indicating mass burden on ships--especially in varying gravity. This is a mess. This is a bridge too far. Empyrion is not an engineering game. Volume OR mass. Both at once is insanity. Edit: I still believe the crossed out above, but if they are inevitable...for both volume and mass to succeed, the UI must be very clear and responsive indeed.
The Radioman makes really good Empyrion videos. I think the Volume and Weight is a good addition as long as it's OPTIONAL and the option is in the mainmenu that you can turn on or off. I love the idea of logistics and automation too but I do agree a game like this generally does better when the focus is 70% creativity and action with 30% realism. Just enough realism where you don't feel like you're playing Mobile game.
I agree with it being on by default as well. Just as long as players know it can't be turned off. Although I can adapt to the new system and I realize the Devs want you to use your HVs, SVs and CVs when transporting anything bigger than a couple of blocks but I could see this system in it's current state taking a long time for a lot of casual gamers to get use to. With the current system you would need a HV with plenty of cargo boxes to disassemble one POI and you would have to make a lot of trips and that will slow the game down to a crawl for single players. It may not be a big deal to Multiplayers if you're playing as a group.
Clarification do you mean can or cant be turned off? Well I would not turn it off my self I don't have a problem with giving people the option... but that's just my 2 cents
I agree with this. Put the volume-system right into the trash, there is already had a good working stack/slot system for this. Is there a game that has implemented mass and volumes and stacks/slots well, I don't know any? Mass could be ok if well balanced, but at the moment BA/CV and SV blocks differs to much. One combat steel block weights 4t, a small SV say 50t or something. Of course BA/CV blocks are bigger and a corresponding difference in weight is somewhat realistic. But not being able to move more than a few BA/CV blocks with an SV when the freight is "realistically" added to the vehicle weight is not useful. In addition, such a combat steel block (weighing 4t) is manufactured from 10 steel plates (2,6kg each) and 8 hardened steel plates (14kg each) with a total weight of 138 kg. If you say that to Einstein, he would say that you "realistically" need a lot of energy to do that. It seems that not only the volume is not balanced at present or realism sometimes simply has to stay behind.
@masel Space engineers uses volume, Wight might be a better way to go. but there is no "perfectly good" inventory limit systems, They all have pros and cons. your "perfectly good" stack/slot system. is the oldest idea most limited one, and is the hardest to balance and set up in a consistent logical manner. Weight is problematic given the setting as of we can go to other galaxies and star systems in a less then a human life time then it stands to reason are or muscles are augmented by our suits especially are armor, we are already working on Exeo suits to do that which would make weight much less of a issue then it comes down to Volume, how much space can we store stuff in or nap sack. because of our extra strath moving heavy compact objects would not be a problem like say a gun safe or even a refrigerator or water heater or stove. even an old cast iron one. but the issue comes it that you would still not be able to easily pick up a tank not because of its Weight but because of the sure size of the object. light balky objects are harder to handle and move them more compact heaver ones
