Please STOP THE MADNESS!!!! I'm fairly new to Empyrion, and I was attracted by the diversity of ship builds, and how there was something in the Workshop for every niche role. The last update totally broke the system for me. It was WORKING... why fix it? Please tell me how to roll back to Alpha 10.5 when I could simply PvE and spawn in a factory ship when I had gathered the resources. Nothing works any more. Not even the Default Generic ships that come with the game!!!! If you are going to change the flight model, at least UPDATE YOUR OWN DEFAULT DESIGNS! If I have to deal with Wonky PvP Nerdz I'll go back to EvE Online.
https://empyriononline.com/forums/vessel-and-base-prefabs.77/ We're working on it. Check the Experimental build to see some of the revised / updated versions. Again I'll say though, as desperately as Piddle has tried to make this discussion sound like a solution to the CPU crisis, it really has jack all to do with CPU, and your complaints are better suited to one of the actual CPU discussion topics.
To rollback to 10.5, open Empyrion's properties in Steam. Click on the Betas tab and select the alpha10 archive. At least, I assume it is A10.5. I haven't had time/access to load my game and verify.
But you do actually know that the rear facing surface isn't the only place to have rear facing thrusters. So you build your well balaced 5x5x5 block ship. I build my 5x5x200 ship, having 25 thrusters facing backwards plus a row of 5 thrusters on each of the side facing backwards, every 3 blocks of length for 100 blocks long. My ship is heavier and bigger than yours, but will also accelerate way faster, and according to actual mechanics also be a lot faster than you. Square-cube law doesn't work here, because thruster placement isn't exclusive to the back surface alone (for one direction). As i said: this is not reality, not a NASA simulator where your propulsion is only at the back like a rocket. Building big enough you have a lot space for generators, fuel tanks and half the ships mass as thrusters, since you don't need 100 construtors for example. And if you only let your beloved physics handle this, bigger ships will always be faster/quicker/more nimble. Which might be physically correct, but feels highly unnatural. There needs to be another regulating factor. Not the CPU system in its current implementation. But something to stop huge ships going faster than smaller ones because, despite all physical logic, feels natural. Simple example, you don't get passed by an oil tanker in your luxury yacht going full speed. And it doesn't matter if in space it would be possible. Big ship has to be slower. Period. THAT feels naturally. Wanting to go full speed exclude building big in a game environment. Simple rule of cool.
I assumed unobstructed thrusters, as Eleon has mentioned that they will be implementing a thruster obstruction check at some point (similar to the obstruction check for weapons). So, I wouldn't count on internal/obstructed thrusters being available forever. And I'll point out that this is exactly what I've been talking about, that poorly/incompletely implemented physics leads loopholes that allow unbalanced designs.
Where do you have this number from? I hope not from steam spy or steam statistics. Because those numbers show EVERY player playing the game via steam, not only MP. Also single player, which are most of those numbers. Easy to see: open server list, count every online player on every server, there is your MP number. BUT, one thing you are right about: there is less interest in the game. Simply because it became a lot more complex. But not complexity is the problem. Usability is. Signal logic, wifi, logistics and logistics tool bar.... all is clunky, not really thought out well and user unfriendly. Add slow development, not really new graphics (people expect stunning, original graphics to catch their attention), systems like bugs and more and more restrictions and complicated systems to it and the general interest in this game is going down. I told them having to have thrusters in every direction is a mistake. It stands for making everything more complex and complicated than needed, going away from the very successful Keep It Simple Stupit formula. Not simple for development, simple for the user, which in return means more work on the development side.
That is why i said "every 3 blocks". They are spaced out and technical not obstructed. But you are right that this leeds to more complicated building. On the otherhand, having only the outer surfaces for thrusters limits and dictates design. Which is also bad in a freeform building game. Those complex and more correct working physics work better in a game with modular building and best with fixed ship hulls/shapes. But not really in a game where you can build your vessel block by block, at least not without causing a lot of frustration for a lot of people.
The CPU system is disabled by default (except in creative mode) and you have to go into the game difficulty settings to enable it. Plus with starter blocks there's no way to change a ship's role without copy and pasting the whole ship to a new one in creative and hoping that nothing breaks with the ship in the process (like signal logic). It's not a good idea for this game. Empyrion does not have distinct "ship classes" in the traditional sense.
Nope, unobstructed means direct line-of-sight to the bounding box (again, as it's done for weapons). Here's a way to look at things: the skin of the ship is where the ship interacts with the universe, via armor, weapons, and thrusters (and maybe, someday, sensors). The functions of defense, offense, and movement (and sensory input) compete for real estate on the ship's skin, and you can see this tradeoff taking place in every vehicle that's ever been built, because it's a fundamental design principle driven by physics in 3 spatial dimensions. In fact, every self-mobile lifeform (humans included) adheres to this design principle as well.
Well this would be right. That would actually reduce possibilites of overpowering vessels, balance movement better and have a natural feel to it. This would solve a lot of balancing problems. Though i would like to have a possibility to hide those ugly thrusters at least partially. And to get back on topic: thos would work with HVs using only Ground repusor units too. So if you limit layered use of propulsion units (thrusters, groznd repulsor units) you actually don't need different style of purpose build propulsion units. Only proper balance things out between volume, mass, energy used and power output. RCS t2 is a good example of bad balance. For tiered Ground repulsor units they need to also vary in size, weight, energy use and power output. Also have them need to have an unobstructed line of sight to the ground and can not be stacked on top of each other. Than your base plate is your limit.
What you all dont seem to get. New cores / starter blocks does not restrict creativity. New cores are what we use right now and you have a whole 3 to play with. SV HV CV The system I proposed gives you MORE of those starting things to build off. Its simple maths. Now you have 3 that you can effect with CPU, = FAIL. My proposal, you have possibly a dozen or more different combinations, THAT YOU DO NOT HAVE NOW plus the 3 you have now still, understand what your talking about guys, this IS how Empyrion was built from the ground up and you are all happy with 3 permanent flight models that can be slightly modified by CPU. Thats your failing to understand the system we currently have used for over 5 years now guys. Repeating the same lie, doesnt make it true, and this really is the most SIMPLE maths to do as shown above. There is no argument that beats that. What you have accepted with JUST CPU is much LESS of a system with much LESS diversity, period. HEY GUESS WHAT, right now, there is no way to change the role of HV SV or CV without taking it into creative and making it conform, hows that any different to what Im proposing, what Im proposing is just more, in more detail, figure it out for the love of logic guys. Expecting physics to the level of SE, and a ships skin to detect everything in the universe is NEVER goingto happen in Empyrion, its not a physics sim, never will be so expecting such a detailed sensor system is serious wishful thinking. Put proposals up that are possible, things like, doing ti how its been done from day one, are viable. Man this is incredible, I dont even code, you should all know how this game was built, and how fundamental the starting block core is to EVERYTHING you do after that, without more of them you absolutely do not have any new flight controls, just the old 3 being restricted by CPU penalties. Well played, the most illogical system ever, feels like EVE. And no not game spy, steam has its own data system, check them crappy numbers out, I dunno how accurate it is, but its reason to raise an eye brow......thats a pretty sudden drop. https://steamcharts.com/search/?q=empyrion
Riddle me this, Batman. What core would you use for that precious Millenium Falcon replica in your sig? By design, it's a freighter. It was meant to haul cargo. It's also "the fastest ship in the galaxy." Doesn't exactly fall into one of your proposed archetypes, does it? Right. "SV version X, SV version Y, SV version Z," etc, and oh by the way, you're still locked into whatever starter block you picked unless you pull the same kind of hacky nonsense you'd use on a CV<->SV conversion. Because having 6 or 10 different versions with CPU = LESS FAIL, amirite? You seem to be operating under the delusion your precious alternate cores would somehow be exempt from those rules...? Stop mixing arguments, ya twit. NOBODY is happy with CPU. But it's still better than being core-locked to a half-dozen different versions of the same ship. "Hey Pot?" "Wassup Kettle?" "You're black." None you'll listen to, anyway. Nobody accepted this, piddle, as evidenced by the plethora of complaints here and on Steam. It was forced down our throats by short-sighted devs looking to hit a sales date, consequences be damned. Like with weapon kits and mass/volume limits, they'll go back to fix it eventually. Ideally, sooner rather than later. Yeah, and how would those fixed-flight cores of yours be any different exactly? All you are asking for is some nerfs / buffs to different aspects of the same basic flight model. Tell me, O Wise One, why this could not be accomplished with, say a booster slot (or several) in the ONE core we have now? Works just fine for Suits. And hey, we could swap those out at will, no Creative Mode nonsense needed! Seriously piddle, you've got no arguments here. Just a lame duck idea that in its own way is even worse than the CPU trash we've been force-fed already, and if you seriously think the devs would willingly rip that system out and replace it with yours..?
Nope. He hopes the devs will listen to somebody saying "Hey, your update is wrong, there are this, this and this bug, can you fix? Will you hear us?" without devs completely ignore him. Or ignore experimental testers, that is what they did.
Fixing problems with the CPU system is very different than permanently breaking every single item on the workshop with no option to turn such a system off. New starter blocks are not a good idea, they would restrict creativity, and would make every single blueprint in the game unusable unless they were completely rebuilt from scratch with a new starter block in creative mode. This is far different than CPU that can be turned off and most ships only need some devices removed or CPU extenders added, which can even be done in survival mode.
Say what you like, but the CPU update has been the most divisive update Eleon have ever put out. It does not fit the vision they had for the game in 2015, 2016 or 2017, or even 2018, I have copies also of all the roadmaps etc, its plain to see, this CPU change took this game down a road of massive building restrictions, there is no debate about that at this late stage, I can post literally HUNDREDS of posts hating on the bad points of CPU in Empyrion. For the few people that defended CPU, almost every single one of them, you, also complained about how CPU was brought into the game, we call that ironic. This game could have had unique flight controls for many different vessels, now we have one set of flight controls, the fact thousands of people have never seed this thread, is its only real failing. Everyone I talk to in open chat rooms or private chat, and explain this in detail, they pick this system I proposed. The system I proposed has far more value to it than most of you realize, considering its how they built the game from day one, and all of you have loved it. Of coarse the system I proposed is also a bit more work, well maybe not considering CPU is literally impossible to balance for the greater proportion of players. CPU update alone saw the biggest drop in MP numbers Ive seen since this game went live. That alone is shameful. The lies around CPU, it was never specialization, just building restriction and a slowing of progression, which is basically more grind. Well played Eleon and the closed testers, me included, , we basically failed our playerbase with this feature. When is it ever a good idea to introduce a feature thats going to divide half or more of your playerbase ? Never, incase your a little slow. But its ok, most of the CPU dislikers will simply leave this game, costing MP more numbers again no doubt, but over time only players who bought it with CPU will remain, and so you end up with a majority in the long run, but the overall numbers are less. That will never stop me speaking the truth about CPU in this closed section though, because CPU, if you are honest is restrictions and progression slowing, nothing more, it completely screws up the flight model, funkiest Ive ever seen in a space game, twitchy joke it is. But CPU is here to stay so, yay lets all go build 25 block fighters, cos the future of building is scarce in comparison. CPU can not be turned off either before anyone cherps it out, its directly linked to the screwy flight model, so turn one off doesnt fix the screwy flight model, game over, this feature was supposed to bring diversity to the flight model, it did not do that, it brought magic and stupid querkyness. My proposal, right now, there would be new categories all over workshop, you would be building ships with real differences, but still capable of placing every block on each type as they are now, you would have lost nothing and gained multiple REAL classes of ship, you absolutely do not have that with CPU, now we have all had lots of time to assess it properly. Worshop, would have real fighters, maybe even prop planes, ships with proper space flight controls, ships with proper atmo flight controls, real bombers capable of carrying a little more than teh fighters etc, real and actual class definition, you do not get that with CPU at all, it would not have restricted building in ANY way at all, regardless of the lies others say about it, thats simply there lack of understanding the system they already love, HV, SV, CV, real distinction between classes, never going to happen under CPU alone. Workshop with a dozen new ship types to build on = more building freedom, more options to build things we just never could or can under the current system, a system that does not effect a SINGLE pre built blueprint is what I proposed, CPU, almost every build needs fixing, 70,000 odd builds that is, tens of thousands of pissed off players, not very well thought out CPU. Anyone who supports dividing our playerbase over a proposal that does the absolute opposite in my opinion does not have the best interests of the game itself at heart. Anyway I just hope the devs take all of this in, for future updates, and consider before putting any feature in the game, will it divide the playerbase almost in half or worse , if so, it should not even qualify for the game. A heap of EA games have done this sort of thing, so very few survive. Putting CPU into this game was a big risk that I genuinely hope doesnt kill the game off, because that would be a very sad day for Empyrionites world wide.
Not sure this is the right forum for this but my question is why do space ships have to perform like aircraft? The old type of flight seemed to work which was more like a helicopter flight style. Surely flight would have evolved to more than straight line flight. Not sure it's connected to CPU but definitely the roll pitch and yaw need some rebalance as you get a Cv that bounces everywhere and a SV that just won't turn or roll at all.
Not connected to CPU, but to acceleration speeds of roll/pitch/yaw of the flight model. They got killed in to numbness around 11.5.3 for SV's . Couldn't be bothered even looking at CV's or HV's after that . If it aint got that swing, it don't mean a thing. Pulled the plug on this game after that.
As with all posts that suggest further specialization of vessel classes, it gets a firm NO vote form me. If anything, I want the opposite - merge SV and HV into small block, and let us choose the function of the vessel by the fittings we place upon it - no turrets on an SV is s stupid idea already. HV and SV constructors being different? Why? And the number of I have accidently made a load of thruster for the wrong type because I just made small block thrusters instead of specifically HV or SV thrusters - Grrrr! My typical ships are non specialized. Maybe in a multiplayer game I may consider being more specialized *IF* I trusted the other players to perform their roles, but as that tends to be like herding kittens, then I prefer being a generalist
If everything is small blocks the game lags out with to may polygons, its why we scale with small blocks and large blocks in the first place, allows large building, without it, you simply dont have building at the scale you do now. Why the game was built from the ground up with 3 flight starter blocks was to give the game 3 sets of flight controls, to give a little diversity, the only way that can be expanded is to introduce new cores. We can clearly see now, with CPU and the new whacky flight model that its made everything more bland, builds smaller in general right across the board, and compliant CPU builds all more similar than the much more diverse range of builds before CPU and the new flight model appeared. 10 minutes on the Steam Workshop for any veteran of the game if they are honest can see that. This has not made the game more diverse, it has not brought specialization and it did not introduce any new flight controls, it restricts the old ones in such a whacked out manner its almost laughable if you ever play any flight sim games or fly real RCs planes. What we should have tried is the most simple and most logical, new starter cores. What you would have right now are 70,000 builds on workshop uneffected and a whole lot less grief. More options to build with not less. Real new flight controls. CPU could have been used as a booster system rather than a restrictive system. Gyros or RCS units would actually still work properly as gyros do. The game would not have lost it logic. CPU is completely artificial and the flight model attached to it is incredibly inaccurate compared to absolutely any flight model system you want to pick in the real world to compare it to. Now I get that its a game, but why make trees so pretty and the planets so prerdy if your not trying to keep some form of realism ??? For over 5 years Eleon added logical features that players for the most could relate to , understand easily, and build freely under, until CPU. Its a total and complete miss understanding if you think more new cores with new flight controls is less diversity and not specialization, its the very definition of it and how its been done from day one in this game, I love your work Kieve, but we seem to dissagree over this and I cant really figure out why when you have been critical of CPU also. If I take the SV starter block out of the game do you have more or less diversity ? Simple math see. If I add a new starter core with abilities to be specifically a drop ship to carry HVs to the ground, so a DSV, DropSmallVessel or the like, you have a specialized vessel with more thrust to any thruster pointing downwards, THATS true specialization in games with flight controls, its a starter block that lets you use all of the SV building blocks still, its a new starter block that opens the door for new devices, '' specific'' to that type of ship, hello awesome specialization at a level this game has not yet seen. So yes mate, from where Im sitting you really miss understand the system Empyrion was built on from day one and I cant figure out why ? It seems obvious to me. And its blatantly obvious to me CPU and the new flight model are not proper specialization. Do you believe CPU and the new flight model bring true specialization to Empyrion Kieve ? Stubert812, thats the whole point , my system would have left the current starter blocks completely untouched, it would not have effected one single build you already had on workshop or on your PC. It would have given you the option to build as you like, as you do now, or on a new core for what ever type ship you wanted to specialize in. If you dont want to build on a starter core with flight controls for a prop plane, you dont have to, but what great options for other builders out there, maybe you would like to build on an atmo Jet starter core instead and have better performance than other starter cores in atmo, true specialization. Bigfeet, to many people have, all because of the CPU flight model update, and because it was touted as specialization when its clearly not. Khazul, thats fine, what you just asked for, you got with CPU, and Im ok with that, different people like different things, but the system I proposed, would not have effected how you currently build on your current starter blocks which is what your playing now and seem to be ok with so at the very least, it would not have effected you, unless, you so chose it too. It seems through all of this, the biggest thing is that I dont seem to be very good sometimes at explaining things in proper detail, and I appologise for that I dont actually write code, yamls are my limit, but its obvious to me how the game was built from day one with starter cores being the very thing that defines your flight controls, and everything after that can only effect those few limited sets of flight controls so unless new ones are introduced, you simply will not see any new unique flight controls or ships in this game.
