Self Destructing NPC ships again

Discussion in 'FAQ & Feedback' started by spanj, Jul 28, 2020.

  1. spanj

    spanj Captain

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    As the previous post about this was abruptly closed while discussions were on-going I thought i would open a new one because i have somethings to say on this subject.
    https://empyriononline.com/threads/self-destructing-npc-ships.94979/

    Firstly, i would point out that my bug report was made after I recorded Mondays episode but before the video was published.

    I am quite saddened by the tone some of the Eleon staff are taking in response to feedback to a change the devs just made to a very important part of the game. I don't usually write a formal complaint, mostly just rant and waffle on in my videos but this issue has hit a lot of players in the community hard and I believe its important people can voice concern and feedback on this change freely, after all, is Eleon's position not, all feedback is welcome?

    Silencing the thread because too many people were pushing back on the excuses for a frankly poorly executed 'Fix' for a problem Eleon failed to foresee is not good community management or customer service. We are all testing your game and providing you feedback, as you have asked us to do many times.

    Now, in regards to the problem at hand. As a player I do not see the difference between an OPV and a SDS ship, they are both enemy ships floating around in space either being avoided or engaged in combat. Continuously stating that OPVs dont despawn and SDS do doesnt mean anything to someone just arriving in a playfield. I see a ship, I engage it, core it and it instantly explodes making all my efforts for nothing.

    Do you not see the problem here?

    I have suggested a solution to this problem and the problem of space litter that I think would work for everyone but instead of simply stating something like 'we're looking into the problem' the response is simply 'This wont change'.
    Well, if this doesn't change, I'm afraid, as many have now pointed out, you have just killed a big portion of the game for many people. Myself included.

    Just now, i have finished recording a new video, I warp to a playfield, see two red dots on the detector and head to them, two Zirax cruisers, I disable both of them and after looting thier boxes, remove their core. They both instantly explode. As I mentioned above, I have no idea if these ships were OPVs or SDS, I just got here.

    But, if these ships gave 30, 20, hell 10 minutes would do, between removing the core and exploding then I would be fine with this. At the end of the day, I want a little more reward for the ammo fired, damage taken and time spent, than some meds and assorted ingots from the loot boxes I could find.

    Thank you.
     
    #1
  2. Hummel-o-War

    Hummel-o-War Administrator Staff Member Community Manager

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    To my knowledge this is NOT an intentional change.

    What means when de-cored:
    - Orbital Patrol Vessel (OPV) that roam in the playfield or are spawned by Space Base Defense (SDS) reinforments, explode all their devices and despawn
    - Orbital POI dexplode all their devices and despawn

    At least not to this extend as we see it in the current version.

    Please note that this ONLY seems to happen if you DE-core them. If you keep the core, the issue does not seem to be present.

    This is currently investigated.
     
    #2
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2020
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  3. spanj

    spanj Captain

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    Thank you @Hummel-o-War - yes they only explode after removing their core.
     
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  4. Hummel-o-War

    Hummel-o-War Administrator Staff Member Community Manager

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  5. StyxAnnihilator

    StyxAnnihilator Captain

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    Experienced it myself recently. With a SV (with shield) I clipped into an OPV (?) and destroyed only the core with gatlings (fiddly). Most devices blew up, but were some "lootpacks" I could empty. Placed a core for salvaging blocks, just that then the POI (and my core) suddenly disappeared. The lootpacks stayed though.

    For me this is not a big deal, I often just neuter them and forget them if they annoy me, better loot and salvage a Base POI (Abandoned something).

    But see that others might want an other way this game mechanic works. Particularly confusing for new players I assume.
     
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  6. Redneck Gaming

    Redneck Gaming Lieutenant

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    I feel like this "feature" if it is indeed a feature, and it seems to be, kind of punishes players for success. The whole, and only point to destroying/coring an NPC ship or structure is to follow that effort with a good and thorough looting, to include any devices it contains either for the device itself or it's components. Jerking the rug out from under the player upon completion of this goal makes avoidance more profitable than engagement.
     
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  7. RavagedSociety

    RavagedSociety Ensign

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    I pretty much joined these forums just to say I 100% agree with this. Self destructing ships is just aggravating. With so many NPC ships in the game, and seemingly more coming out every so often, my memory is not good enough to know which ships are worth killing and which ones are a complete waste of time and resources. Frankly, imo, NO ship should be a complete waste of time and resources. Heck, even the tiny drones feel as though the reward equals the effort in killing them. Yes, you can kill NPC CVs and loot them before detonating them by exploding the core, but from my experience, the loot on board a lot of these ships has been dismal at best. Certainly not worth the amount of ammunition and possible ship damage you expend in disabling it. The only real value I saw in fighting them at all was the potential salvage. It was rather lucrative and, again imo, totally worth it. Heck, I'd sometimes go to starter systems on MP, kill a ship and announce it open for salvage to new players who could get there. Now that's gone too. Right now, combating NPC ships in space just seems entirely pointless because I never know if I'm completely wasting my time or not.
     
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  8. jones99306

    jones99306 Lieutenant

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    Empyrion Galactic Survival implies not only surviving on a planet, but in the vastness of space. Following that implication, it seems fair that most players will assume that anything is fair game to kill and loot, as this is survival. To upend that assumption turns this game into something else entirely, and as has been stated makes it more profitable to just run away and ignore the fight rather than wasting resources for no reward. Less survival and more hiding.

    Also, some of those CVs are extremely well done and detailed, including spawners and intelligent layouts. They are like space-faring dungeons. Now, you get to the end, spike the core, and watch the whole ship evaporate in front of you. That's a ton of design effort gone to waste, since people will likely ignore the entire thing from now on. This, to my sensibilities, is not a good change.
     
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  9. imlarry425

    imlarry425 Captain

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    It may not be an easy approach to implement, but using spawn as a mechanism to create and deploy units is what creates the underlying garbage collection problem that Taelyn describes when he says...

    >[too] many of those ship laying around will cause performance issues.

    Another approach that would result in behaviors that would mimic tactical thinking and let players employ strategy in attacking POIs would be to deploy units that were associated with POIs to perform these "rescue a POI under attack" sorts of missions and then have them return to their bases when the attacks are dealt with or the units ultimately lost. Players, especially in pvp & coop MP games, could lure units from their deployments as part of their own strategies.

    Rather than using despawn as a garbage collection activity, this too could be handled with an AI behavioral approach where factions would deploy salvage units (ships with multi-tool turrets as weapons used against their own assets) that would hover up these sorts of hulks. This would map better to the RPG simulation that many hope Empyrion aspires to and even a simple implementation would provide immediate relief/customer value. These salvage units could themselves create pseudo-dynamic tactical and strategic opportunities for players.

    Finally these same sorts of approaches could get folded into the solution for the "factory problem" by explaining how fully featured entities can be created out of thin air- if the multi-turret and repair bay were folded into a T2 tech entity that could perform the "to blueprint repair" actions that is currently provided by the T2 repair bay it would create a mobile unit that could create things ... these sorts of vessels could be under the control of an existing or as yet undiscovered faction that delivers an in universe mechanism for the Sears Robuck entity that we currently shovel resources into in order to create "poof- magic" ships, bases, etc.
     
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  10. Phantom 3

    Phantom 3 Lieutenant

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    Was painful to watch, sadly the next day the thread was closed so I was unable to comment. Also, as a new player, I really don't want to go to the forums to know that X will self-destruct in 5/10 minutes, there should be some in-game feature that informs the player of any out of the ordinary
    mechanic that is in play.

    Here are my thoughts on what I would assume are the two main issues related to the topic - space garbage and the farming exploitability of reinforcement.

    Space Garbage - To determine despawn priority you can assign some properties that would add to a ship weight value - [class/time in play/player distance/with core/no core/player core]. When a playfield ship weight threshold is reached the garbage collector can start cleaning up. I would assume [player core-ed, player in ship] would not be flagged for cleanup, or at least be last on the list. Personally X-minutes to despawn just feel arbitrary, might be the perfect number for server Y with Z number of players but on other servers hours or even days might work just fine.

    Anti-Farming - I would take a guess that if the enemy is having its butt kicked they might resort to some desperate measures. Maybe reinforcements are ordered to engage with their 'dead man's switch' enabled, blowing everything to smithereens should the ship become incapacitated (1). What is very important though is to give players(thinking of the new ones entering the field) some indication that a vessel has the DMS flag set and that there is no chance of them being taken.

    Anyway, love the game - reason I'm sharing my thoughts :)

    (1) Can make things a bit more interesting, have a countdown with a bigger than normal AOE explosion. Anyway, baby steps..
     
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  11. PickleJar

    PickleJar Lieutenant

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    Can the mechanic be explained in greater detail?

    What specifically is gained by causing the destruction of the vessel rather than allowing it to be salvaged?

    Are we ... preventing an exploit? Preventing an unintended gameplay loop?

    What problem does this fix?
    Weight that against:
    What frustrations does this cause?

    Currently - problems fixed = undefined. frustrations caused = I burned a lot of ammo / resources / sustained XYZ damage and received almost no return on the effort via the 3 crates I was able to loot for 50 ingots of whogivesacrap.

    This means that only well established players for whom there is ZERO risk materially will engage these vessels.

    That is stupid.
     
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  12. Hummel-o-War

    Hummel-o-War Administrator Staff Member Community Manager

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    #12
  13. PickleJar

    PickleJar Lieutenant

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    No. I read through that. The comment I made is more in line with this:

    "Third: Feel free to discuss how the behavior should or should not be in place (this is a feedback thread after all), but keep it civil. Everyone shall have an opinion and thought about this topic, but please make yourself aware, other players might think different about it"

    While you've clearly explained WHAT happens, I am asking WHY it happens. We can all see WHAT happens, and it's why people are mad.

    The rest of my post is the main thing we're all aiming at I believe. No reason to beat around the bush:

    I and many others are second-guessing the implementation of this mechanic. It appears to be unnecessary and without justification given the information we have available. Something which was not broken has been "fixed" - and in a way that many don't like.

    The least Eleon could do is enlighten the community with a WHY so everybody calms down about the WHAT.
     
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