Yes, it's exactly how it appears: the water takes a vertical dive downward just shy of the shoreline. And of course the extreme over-the-top utterly unrealistic "wavy" underwater refraction effect is still with us, unchanged.
The water looks more like a real "liquid" now (shade/ color/ reflections) but the effects are way too strong : waves could be small ripples and not big disturbances like shown in some examples posted in the first feedback thread. Other distorsion could also be much weaker. If strong waves appear out of nowhere it looks quite unnatural. It looks more natural to have the same random spawn of small ripples in many isolated spots due to gusts of wind. Bigger waves would need to be continuous on all the surface.
To be fair to Eleon, I doubt that is is a particularly "easy" issue to address. Personally, I would have much preferred that they allocated the time and effort they put into this fix, and the additional time and effort they would have to put into addressing the new/ongoing issues you raise if they try to fix it further into other, less "expensive," and equally longstanding isseus: Just as a "for example," my personal list of such "long-standing issues" (which may differ from others) I've discussed the new 'water graphics' with at least a half-dozen if not 8 or 10 other users, and the consensus in that group universally is: I wish they had fixed other things instead of water effects. With all of that said: now that they have started working on making water more naturalistic, we can expect they will keep working on it, and with that expectation it does make sense to try to offer them more feedback on what aspects of it presently remain unsatisfactory. To further highlight the new/ongoing problems try this (I did already) and if for no other reason than to see the hilarious visual effects you can create: Place a base immediately adjacent to the water's edge. A tall base is preferred as the effect is best observed in a base that is "submerged" underground. I don't think I captured a screenshot, but I will try to replicate it and post it. Basically, that 'waterfall" effect you see in limited form in your third pic, you can stretch that down to the Earth's core by placing a tall base right next to the water's edge and sinking the base so that most of it is underground. Had a waterfall flowing down the inside wall of a blueprint spawned base on the Anvil RE server. It was trippy and hilarious and I kick myself for apparently not screen capping it . . . That server does not regen playfields outside of starter systems, and we only stripped that base when we left, so it is presumably still there and one could go back and screen cap it . . . I'll see if I can replicate the effect in creative and screen cap it.
This is not exactly what I was seeing on the server, but it is close. Because the wall of the base (on the server) happened to be immediately adjacent to the water boundary on the server the "water fall" was much more animated and "glittery." Like I said: personally, if it were me, I'd prefer they just stop fiddling with stuff like this and focus on fixing longstanding problems, deficiencies and glitches with the game (as detailed in part in the long segment I quoted above). Trying to perfect the way water behaves in a game like this seems like a rabbit hole of infinite proportions, as the example I'm showing demonstrates: you just cannot predict what players will do with constructs or terrain deformation near water and so it seems it is likely ALWAYS going to be the case that some strange permutation of digging, filling, building and flattening under or near water is going to result in weird effects. Best to just fix its impact on performance and leave it I think, but Eleon are in control of where it goes so that is just my feedback. I should also perhaps note: I had ZERO desire to try to "break" the new water effects when I discovered this "waterfall in the base" effect. We were playing in a survival coop session, we had escaped starter system and we wanted a base. It just happened to be that the least bad spot to place it was immediately adjacent to water. I dug down with my mining SV a bit to try to expose a path to get into the base (this is how the base in question is intended to be placed . . .) and it just wound up producing the effect.
@dichebach : players have been asking consistently for "fluid water" and "underwater bases", for years. Now that Eleon has finally started working on this, why so many players now suddenly throw them tomatoes because they did not work on something else ? Or let me put this differently : when players ask on forums for "fluid water" and "airtight underwater bases" why all these players now criticizing the new water effects don't step in and argue against these proposals, and try to "reason" these players into siding with them to get Eleon to work on "more important things" ? Well let me offer a very simple answer to this : because it's easier to attack and criticize the developer (they will not answer) than try to look bad by arguing with players. Because that is really what critics of the water thing are doing now : ignoring the fact so many players asked for better looks, and rework of the water system, and shouting at the "invisible man" instead.
Bro, I'm not attacking or criticizing anyone or anything. I'm offering constructive feedback which is strictly from my personal perspective. Where I have information based on conversations with other users I offer that in aggregate too. You are correct that "users" have been asking for improved water for years; I do not believe I have ever asked for it myself, so I am, I think entitled to comment that I would have preferred that they address other things instead of fluid water. I also think that the content of my comments, i.e., that attempting to achieve what those "fluid water seekers" want is likely to be an interminable development rabbit hole, and I think that the screen caps by OP and myself show just some examples of how that is the case. This game is fabulous. Utterly fantastic. Wonderful. Amazing, Splendid. Delightful. Astounding. Engrosing. So much so that I have at least 3500 hours (and probably more like 5000 hours) playing it. I don't see myself stopping playing it for many thousands more, though breaks are likely. There you see: I can praise with the best of them. But there is no point praising mindlessly when there are still to this day elements of the game which are deficient, as detailed in my long quoted comments copied from my responses to their survey. The issue of how many people asked for improved water is utterly irrelevant. What is relevant is: is it good or does it need more work. It obviously needs more work from my perspective. Eleon cannot know what work is needed if they don't experience some criticism. Some of it is gonna be curt, or brief of perhaps even a tad bit rude, hopefully all of it is constructive whether it is coarse or eloquent.
Complement to my previous question (which I answered anyways) : what makes you believe (can't tell for the others, right ?) that Eleon is not also working on "long standing issues" at the same time they are working on water? How can players be so sure of what is going on at Eleon at all times to make such affirmations ?
I don't "believe" anything about what Eleon is or is not doing. What I know is that most of the issues I list are ones which have been in the game for years. I'm not criticizing them that these issues remain in place, I'm merely reminding them about those issues and asking them to fix them when they get a chance; assuming that they agree that the issues I list are issues. Maybe they disagree, in which case those of us who take issue with the types of things I listed are SOL. It is their game, we just bought licenses. All we can do is offer our feedback, which is what I'm doing, and no I don't bother to doctor it up with praise the way you seemingly expect any critique or feedback to be dressed. I praise them where it is due, and I try to insure that everyone who pays any attention to my presence in any online setting associated with this game understands that I am Eleon's biggest fan and that this game is damn near a masterpiece; my favorite game. Just because it is anyone's favorite game doesn't mean it is perfect or that it cannot be improved. Just because I can praise the game in one breath doesn't mean I cannot point out deficiencies in it in the next breath. That seems to be where you are confused: either one is all praise or all attack. But that is not how I operate.
Yes you are : by saying they are not fixing things while you don't know what they are doing. One simple example : they implement new water system and it makes terrain real worse than it has ever been. Instead of shoving it all into the next version, they tone down some of the issues to have a somewhat similar state to what was before the new water change. But this is all invisible on the player side, because we see no change in terrain behavior, we only see "new water". Another example : like it was written in another recent thread, they explained that they are working on the framework and components that will support long term development. This does not result in immediate changes that players can feel or see in the game, but it is now "in the code base". They may have spent weeks if not months to try to set this up, and players still think they are not working at solving "long lasting issues". Well honestly, I think a lot of players are just clueless about what is going on. We used to post nice charts about 'game development" some time ago to show how some players want all and everything fixed and implemented at the same time, yet having no clue how to desing even a simple text-based quizz... And if it's not that players are clueless then it's pure entitlement. Yes, we're all allowed to complain. But when complaining is making wild unsupported assumptions then it is worth nothing. The devs know what they are doing, the players do not : they "speculate".
You have absolutely no right to tell me I "believe" something when I just told you that I do not. This is a recurring pattern with you: you come across as a self-important, condescending, passive-aggressive narcissist, and insist on creating arguments where there was none to begin with. I have a simple solution which I reserve for only the most very specialist of Internet cretins: I put them on ignore. Fare the well Kassonnade . . .
I tell you what you do, not what you are. I thought this was an easy difference to understand and keep discussions civil. You chose your path, I will stick to what you write and your arguments. If you have any knowledge - and not assumptions - of what Eleon is working on, then feel free to share it to support your point. What I say is simple : "not fixing (x)" is an assumption if we have zero knowledge of what can be done, and the time and context it takes to do it. So if players don't see results after making a suggestion or comment, they make an inference that Eleon is not working/ fixing/ reading/ caring. But that doesn't give anyone any kind of serious information about what is really going on at Eleon's workplace. They might very well be struggling just to keep the game playable while at the same time taking it apart at each bug report just because even simple things are intertwined with a zillion other ones. I have every right to tell you that you are speculating when you are speculating. Keep your drama for the ones who care.
It's called the game has been under development for six years without becoming finished or allowing expanded mod support. So, in those six years some have gotten used to certain things, others want old bugs squashed, while others want something new, especially since the number of players has increased over time. Generally you have a split of the old and the new and the newer still when it comes to the playerbase. This essentially explains the vast differences of opinions when it comes to certain features. There's nothing really to complain about, balkanization of playerbases/fanbases is a part of human nature. Especially whenever the population size increases, humans have a natural instinct to split off from the main group and form another tribe. If you want less bickering between the tribes the least Eleon could do is expand mod support further, that way people can just mod in their own features instead of complaining each update over something Eleon either adds or takes away. Then again humans bicker regardless as is part of their nature, so there's no point in complaining unless one feels at a loss of how the unity of the old playerbase is going away (which I don't really care about because it's just one of those things to make oneself feel special, when one is not).
I think that here and in some other discussions, some players make no difference between persons and the subject being discussed. I don't care if a player completely destroys a feature, but if they attack persons/ developer/ players qualities or reputations doing so then this falls out of civil and normal debate - it's "off topic" and unfair rhetoric. These are the tools of manipulation : insult, bully, scare, scorn so the other debater will shut up or agree. So when someone starts saying "Eleon does this" and "Eleon is not fixing that" while we know nothing but see new content once in a while and constant bug fixing, I wonder if these people read the same forum... But just like you mention : even if Eleon allows full modding capacity, some player who don't mod will not be happy anyways. That's understandable. But the point is not about the game : it's about the ability to discuss in a civil manner and respect that "speculation" is not "fact" and that some arguments (not people!) can be moot, wrong, far fetched, etc. If people can start making that distinction between the object being discussed and their own qualities, things will make a giant step forward. Anything can be discussed, anything can be "changed" but not the persons. If I am a "cretin" then I am a cretin, and I can not change that. If my argument is "stupid" then it is not me, and I can change or retract my argument. Easy. Just think "slippery slope". Player comes in saying "Eleon if you do X then players will not like, will leave bad review and game will die". This is a one-way downhill railroad scenario, with no hopes and no options to avoid disaster if "Eleon does X". And of course this is completely untrue : Eleon can do X and doomsday scenario will not happen. It can also happen, but it's only one possibility among many others. Now if some player points out that logical flaw and calls out "slippery slope" what we can expect is that the "slippery slope" author will feel "attacked" although it is the nature of his argument that is shown as flawed. Then things go out the left field, because Mr Slippery Slope thinks "he" is "flawed" or that the other person is trying to make "him" look ridiculous (and not his argument). These things are taught in college, by the way, and here even in elementary schools. Critical thinking, rules of rhetoric, sane debate.
I don't think you're too far off the mark here. I've seen this same kind of behavior in countless other games. The developers implement something, someone else goes off on a rant because that thing was not the something those people thought should be implemented/was not their idea. When it's at its worst are when it's coming from "backers", those who spent no small amount of money during Kickstarter campaigns, or similar startups, as they believe, very mistakenly, that this somehow makes them part of the developmental team, or makes their opinions more important than the majority.
Just being under water looks unnatural, and has for a number of years. Rather than fix that by dialing back the excess, Eleon piled on another feature that is broken or excessive at launch, and now will likely remain so for years. What good is the Experimental Branch if Eleon ignores all the feedback or cuts Experimental too short and routinely releases new features still broken and then leaves them that way?
"Never say never". We have seen that Eleon acknowledges lots of feedback, but some players prefer to look at the empty part of the glass instead of looking at the remaining water, so they exaggerate a bit sometimes. But nevertheless, what are you going to do about this ? Write a letter to the Queen of England ? Go on hunger strike ?
The only specific instance you mention is water, no need to use the plural. The essence of your message is a sweeping statement that Eleon piles up broken/ excessive features on top of one another and leaves them like that for years. The new water has been described as more realistic by enough players now to safely suggest that the looks have improved over the past version. You don't have to agree of course, but since the point of the thread is to discard any improvement I think it failed to demonstrate that convincingly. But the topic gets pulled towards other features, experimental cycles duration and update release management, which has nothing to do with the "water is not now more realistic after 1.7". So just on water, we now have interaction with vessels and player, and that was not the case before. How can you suggest that is a step backwards regarding "realism" ? And is that not one step closer to "underwater bases" ?
