Hey all, I've posted on this subject in the past... a long-distance past lol. However, I do still wonder if HV's and SV's under AI control could ever be a thing. I can see the issues an AI might have navigating terrain in an HV might pose, however, an SV needn't care about such things. We already have CV's flying around on planets, but they're, well, a little quirky aren't they? I've loved seeing PV's battle it out in a certain game-start - likely my favourite vanilla start to date - however, they do exhibit some really odd behaviours! I've seen PV's zooming along at many times the max speed that should be obtainable. Travelling East to West (for example) in just moments before vanishing from site. I've seen PVs suddenly shoot UP at incredible speeds, vanishing from site soon after. I've also seen PV's just sat there, unmoving, for hours on end. Plus of course the classic stuck on terrain. I've also not seen a regular Patrol Vessel return to a repair pad in an age... I start to doubt my memory that they ever did at this point. Their AI doesn't really inspire confidence. I'd cite these as reasons that HV and SV under AI control hasn't even been attempted, at least not in something available to the public. We have Drones, with their fixed stats per model, but even they don't perform particularly well. Outside of glitches, they're about as good as they've ever been though, they don't seem to get stuck quite so often. Progress has been made, no doubt. For me, as a Solo player, being able to order around AI-controlled vessels, and of course have AI-controlled vessels opposing me, is a bit of a holy grail of a feature. I can see why an AI would be bad at terrain navigation but, for the sake of gameplay, have it cheat. Give it the ability to know the terrain, rather than simulate it having site, I suspect no one cares. It'd just look competent without the number crunching lol. Imagine having an AI-controlled HV accompanying you in your HV, following in a set formation. Then you face off against a group of Zirax HV's. I'm having Battlezone 2 vibes here, with allies following me into battle... Perhaps this is something for Empyrion 2, though I do wonder if a sequel game is planned... Do people think Empyrion would see a bit of a resurgence if there was a major feature update implementing AI for HV's and SV's? As well as perhaps for player CV's too? I'd love to jump to a new system, ordering a second (third, forth...) CV to follow me. Only possible if you have friends currently lol.
I also asked about this not too long ago: https://empyriononline.com/threads/npc-small-and-hover-vehicles.103002/ When I first discovered this game last year after having played Space Engineers for a few years, in the back of my mind I was assuming there'd be NPC controlled HV's and SV's in addition to the CV's. However, I was really disappointed when I realized they weren't in the game. I feel like my hover tanks and attack choppers have been robbed of most of their purpose, unfortunately. They should really add NPC HV's and SV's.
I'd personally be happy to play with a very rough version of AI-controlled HV/SV's for testing. I imagine SVs would be easy - if having minimum values for certain stats - HV's obviously a problem though. However, having the Zirax (for example) not field HV's on certain planets due to terrain would be perfectly logical. On large, open worlds though, I imagine they'd not have too many issues, especially if the AI "cheats" to know the terrain in advance. I'd like to see the feature attempted at least.... or announced for "Empyrion 2" Because Empyrion offers wide amount of content the player can engage in, various areas do seem a little shallow. Talking shallow, there was talk a long time ago about developing the water content further. I.e. craft able to travel under water just fine, with more things to explore there. Underwater POI's are already a possibility, but usually just the wreck / crashed CV type. With water not being displaced when building an underwater base, it doesn't really work currently. Interestingly, back in much earlier game versions, there was more underwater gameplay. SV's were able to fly underwater just fine, a little slower IIRC, but they worked. I even built full under water bases, with under water hangars for my SV's. Was fun. When that feature was blocked, it was expected that something might be replacing it... I do wonder if a large content push - perhaps needing additional developers - would produce sufficient additional revenue. Current players would doubtless be overjoyed, but it needs to bring in new players. Perhaps as "feature" DLC? The last DLC didn't appeal to me, and perhaps wasn't as popular as the devs would have liked. DLC that adds a core new feature to the base game might be the way... though there are potential problems with compatibility with future Scenarios (such as Reforged Eden which is great) perhaps needing the DLC going forwards. I play large mods for other games that needs certain paid-for DLCs. Indeed, something like Reforged Eden needing a new DLC, but also adding it's own unique content leveraging said DLC's new features, would be acceptable I think. Anyway, just a bit of idle speculation on my part. I'd love to see Empyrion continue to be developed and features added, however, the devs need to get paid. As an aside, I still dream of large block HV's... roaming a vast planet in my mobile base that isn't a CV...
Yeah, exactly what I was thinking. Drones can be quite quirky at times, however, my recent experience with the current v1.15 Beta have seen some very well behaved Drones. All those that came at my base worked well, my own (testing BA-deployed Drones) were fine, but did collide with terrain a few times when trying to chase down a PV. Against other Drones, they were really quite impressive... though opposing Drones largely ignored them, focussing instead on my Base proper. However, Drones move slowly, so how the AI would adapt to 70ms attack runs is...well, I want to see the potential chaos that ensues here lol. With turrets now being far better initially engaging, and switching, targets, well, a solid counter for much harder base attacks is there. It also gives a reason to upgrade Base Turrets from just the regular Minigun type. If base attacks started with Drone waves, but escalated to SVs that'd be great. I can see AI-controled SV's performing a base attacking potentially being laughably bad - it's fine if we're testing a feature - through to scarily competent. I think of my own attack runs vs. a POI in a lightly-shielded SV. It's often slow to whittle down several turrets with basic rockets, but with several SVs attacking at once... damn, I want to experience that outside of MP. Anyway, to start, Eleon could create SV's that are basically Drone analogues. I.e. a basic SV with a single gun / missile launcher. Or perhaps something with a Turret fitted - have them "orbit" a Base, rather than perform attack runs. A slow, but more armoured SV might make for some interesting results. I wonder, if Eleon don't want to go down this route themselves for whatever reason, could they perhaps expose something to modders to allow Drone AI to be attached to SV's? Could they even expose the AI logic controlling them? When I think of how PCs have advance in the ten years I've been playing Empyrion, things that would have stressed a system back then, might be child's play now... I played earlier versions of Empyrion on an old Core2Quad with a GTX 275... settings turned pretty low, as you'd imagine, but playable. Not any more of course, after an update years ago now. Now I'm on a 5800X3d, an excellent CPU, no doubt, but not cutting edge (for gaming) any more. Until recently, I was using a 3070 (now 5070Ti) both run the game great, albeit with a few settings dialled down on the 3070 (1440p). Modders have done so much for Empyrion (yeah, looking at you @ravien_ff ) that granting them more power to access the inner workings of the game seems like a Win / Win scenario for everyone. Not suggesting such things are necessarily easy to do of course, but if Eleon "unlocked" something that granted AI-controlled SV's to Reforged Eden 2, I'd be a happy bunny.
I don't know what it's like to work with Empyrion's code obviously, but it seems to me a very rudimentary implementation of AI-controlled SV's and HV's would not be that hard. Here's what I think could be done pretty easily as a really simple initial implementation: SV's: - Have them only travel at a fixed altitude some distance (say 50 meters) above the highest peak of the terrain. This would prevent pathing problems. - Once an AI SV spots a player or an enemy faction vehicle, have it simply stop and fire at that vehicle while completely stationary, whether it would be with turrets (obviously easier) or fixed guns. - If even that proves to be too much to implement, then have SV's simply float in place around a base, and fire at enemies while stationary. - If the generator gets taken out, then somehow ensure that the core also gets blown up, maybe by placing it right next to the generator. - If it loses enough thrusters to not be able to maintain altitude, then as soon as it touches the ground, have it explode. - Space SV's would probably be easy to implement; an easy implementation would be to just have them behave just like CV's, but faster. - You could have space SV's spawn from carriers mostly, or come in as reinforcements. HV's: - Have them simply hover in place near a base, and like the SV's described above, have them shoot at enemies while stationary. - For troop carriers, give them spawn pads to spawn infantry nearby if an enemy is spotted. - For tanks, if enough of the guns/turrets or the generator gets taken out, have infantry spawn nearby to simulate the crew escaping the disabled tank. - It would be cool if the control seats had NPC models on them initially, and if the crew members escape the vehicle, have the NPC models disappear from the seats. Ideally you would try to have both SV's and HV's patrol an area near a base and even chase enemies beyond, with SV's maneuvering like fighter jets or helicopters, but I can see how the terrain could cause pathing problems, especially for HV's. Having even this really rudimentary implementation of AI-controlled SV's and HV's described above would be infinitely better than not having them at all.
I feel that the general AI awareness is something that could do with a rework, from the lowly mech guard that jumps onto tables and off railings to the ground several floors below, through the PV that crash into mountains, to the multiple CV's pile-up at Space stations. But I feel that that's a big job that requires more time and resources, and putting a sticking plaster on it won't really send us forward, and if Eleon attempted to do a half job that ended in chaos it would spread across the intenet quickly with the potential of causing the great harm to the game (ridicule holds great value on the web) We really don't need that. What do I suggest, I don't, but, tread carefully, or take the plung, and look for long term financing an set about *EGS II. *The big thing there is The major scenario builders (cough...RE/2) would likely have to do it all again, and that might be just too painfull for them
You're not wrong. For NPC/Critter AI they tend to go one of two ways. Either you'll have a sharp-shooter who insta-turns to shoot at you, or the totally oblivious climbing on tables type. There's also the disparity between objects. For example your typical NPC is seemingly totally unaware of a player standing on the other side of a Window. Drones however, can see clearly. There's no doubt an overhaul of the AI could lead to significantly enhance gameplay overall - both in the fixing of current quirks, and the addition of new AI-using stuff. However, whether this can realistically be done, the effort involved and, as you rightly mention, the potential impact on existing Scenarios... well, is the value there? Here's the thing, I was playing RE2 this evening. Having fun flying around in my mobile base CV gathering rarer raw resources. Got what I needed, refined it and upgraded the CV's Thrusters and Shield, as well as placing a self-repair thingy. Great. What I didn't do is visit any POI's as things have gotten repetitive. I'm not enjoying the on-foot stuff at this game stage. Perhaps the game leans a bit too heavily on the fact that it's multi-player. I'm sure having buddies along would be great. However, not being a kid any more, be able to coordinate after-school (aka work) gaming activities is near impossible lol. So, gaming time is often just me for the most part, certainly in Empyrion. That's part of the reason why AI changes would be welcome. I expect many are in a similar boat.
Absolutely, I face the same delemas constantly, I actually feel sorry for game devs, really I do, because we're (people) are difficult to please, many of us want faster level up's and faster workings of cash/materials etc, perhaps simply because of the age we live in, where time is much more than just money, it's rare and precious for the working man/woman, and even more so for those with family, I have more leisure time now so I'm fine, but I remember (I've not played for a few years now though) in Elite Dangerous, the players were on the forums each and every minute telling each other that they wouldn't get out of bed for less than Cr100 million per hour... "it's not worth it", and Frontier developments kept increasing the values of things and trying to please the loudest with the greatest following... it was becomming hell, when I started out I loved the fact that I could make 20k on a round trip 40 mins, and sometimes it was only 12k... well it's more than I had so that was good too, the need for faster better more became endemic and as it was online only my game was affected by those driving the economy to rediculous levels and that spoiled the game for me. Now in EGS, I still shoot copper/resource rocks to get a few extra copper/whatever if it's near me, even if I've just mined out thousands, I can't help it, and I still run round getting some scrapings/herbs/whatever when I see them, even though I have no need of them and/or I could buy all the meds I will ever need and still have a pile of cash left over... I still forage and enjoy it, So I do still go into those dark and spookie places and am thankful when I come out alive, because if I die there I cannot (my brain wont allow it) respawn*, it's over because I got complacent, and all I had is gone. This game is unbelievably addictive, when they set out to make 'Minecraft in space but more real' they can safely say thet they succeded. *I play Minecraft the same way.
I share your Elite Dangerous experience. I was around right at the start - I backed the game originally - and it took time and effort to progress. It was weeks to get a new ship (with 3x the rebuy!) and equip it well. Last year, my nephew picked up the game, he was a bit lost - he'd never played anything like Elite before - so I hopped in and helped him. He left the starting area prematurely - no knowing any better - before taking the artificially lucrative starting area missions. However, we just teamed up in a HighRes and did team Bounty Huntin, he was a multi-millionaire and able to buy and equip a new ship after an hour or so. I think he had a "lesser" experience than I did, less sense of achievement and progress as money came so easily whatever he did. Just to add, he was really keen to make credits quickly and start exploring other ships and weapon loadouts. We did enough together so he had options, able to outfit ships for different roles if he wanted. I think Empyrion's pacing is pretty decent. The early-game is pretty solid, starter basic POI's are generally easy enough - though I'm of course familiar with them now. Plus, I'm aware of various "quirks" of the game and can perhaps avoid them most of the time. The early-game is good. I've given plenty of POI feedback in the past in regards to spawning issues and other NPC/Critter things. They're still quite good though. However, it's very much at the "now I have several vessels" stage that I'd like to command them, rather than fly them. Perhaps I'm wrong here in regards to what people would like from the game. However, I think an "AI" DLC might be something that appeals to people. It's the same game, same base mechanics, but the DLC adds the "AI Block" for example. It could allow for basic AI behaviour, or more advanced player-scripted behaviours for certain tasks. I.e. fly this route, scanning (ping!) for enemies. Engage if spotted. Return for repairs [here] for repair and rearm as needed. Sound simple, but likely a pain to code lol. PV tried the whole "return to base" thing, but I cannot recall the last time I saw one do it. Said "AI" DLC could offer both player-owned AI controlled vessels, as well as improve / buff what other factions can deploy. I would love something like this, and jump right on it. Perhaps I'm in a minority however. Perhaps Eleon could do some sort of poll / survey again, asking what people would like from a DLC? Present a few options. The Dark Faction stuff didn't really seem to gel with people. I didn't appeal to me.
Well DLC is a difficult thing to be able add to the game without any 'extra' benefits, but that would be 'pay to win' and I think that the community is agreed that isn't the way we need to go. Perhaps the 'AI' might be a way to go, because it could add many of those things that the Elite Dangerous players were asking for but for so long were denied... Land ownership, colonies, businsses (creating a mega corp) in the early games I would often mine water and sell it on , we couldn't mine in Elite Dangerous... because! So if AI could be set to run things in the back ground so that a colony could be started by the player and supplied for a while with the basics until the AI took over and trade routes were sorted perhaps trained by the player, then the player might only go back to check once in a while and or get a message that the colony needed help, so the player might find that he/she's back out in the adventure mode smashing a Pirate/Criminal gang/oppressive faction to save the conlony, the player might just have made an enemy of whatever faction and they send in the troops to upset the colony/disrupt supply lines... player has to sort that out! But, in can't be too hectic as that isn't something I see EGS as, I see it as generally well ballanced for doing what you like. Along with the AI, in fact to support that I'd like to see that trading in ships, the ability to purchase some 'standard' ships to supply the colonies, and the colonies funds will have to ballance, not so much micro managing, but making sure that it works, all construction has to cost and I suppose it would initially be the player footing the bill. I can see that working either solo (which mine would be) or on line for groups, with or without PVP (again, that's not my cup of tea)
It is an interesting subject, IMO you should try the script thread. I don't know much about empyrion scripting, but Astic seems like the player to ask about custom pathfinding and ai for patrol ships. I don't know what the limitations are, but with his work it might be possible to achieve most of what you talked about here. I am imagining commanding a couple of my own ai ships from my own ship by using the lcds in my cockpit to remotely order them to follow my ship or intercept a target Also using his work it might be possible to script a more competent pathfinding and targeting ai for patrol ships CV SV HV. I take the following from google: ASTIC's Scripts Mod (Lua/C#): This mod allows for extensive scripting, including custom movement commands for vessels (SV/HV/CV). You can create algorithms that bypass default navigation, such as the Galactic Waez navigator, which constructs its own map for interstellar travel. C# Modding API: For deeper control, you can create a custom .NET 4.0 Class Library that uses the Empyrion API to read entity positions and send movement commands. This allows you to implement A* or other algorithms to calculate paths, then force the game entity to follow them, bypassing the standard NavMesh behavior. Limitations and Considerations Performance: Custom pathfinding, especially for many NPCs or complex, voxel-based environments, requires efficient coding (e.g., A* on a simplified grid). Dynamic Environments: If the pathfinding is for entities moving around destructible terrain, the custom algorithm must frequently re-calculate paths to adapt to changes. In summary, you can override NPC or vessel behavior by creating a script that calculates a path in real-time and tells the entity to MoveTo the next point, ignoring the game's default pathing behavior.
Basic pathfinding for some of the enemies seems to follow a compass like pathing system, the 'horrors' and golems seem to be unable to travel say north east or north west if the player is between compass points instead they take one pace north then one pace east/west, it makes them trick little buggers to hit with a single shot weapon, it you get em facing one of the compass points they come straight at you offering a single shot target... that's something to think about for future confrontations! As for ASTIC's stuff... I'm like Joey Tribbiani trying to learn french
