A9 - Logistics, Virtual Toolbar, Modular Containers

Discussion in 'FAQ & Feedback' started by Hummel-o-War, Dec 17, 2018.

  1. Hummel-o-War

    Hummel-o-War Administrator
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    PREAMBLE

    First things first: this feature feedback thread is NOT about the Volume and its implications, but about the new LOGISTIC GUI!

    Said that, if you absolutely WANT to discuss Volume and Volume limitations, do NOT use this thread here, but join the discussion over there: https://empyriononline.com/threads/a9-discussion-volume-and-weight-limitations.46806/

    Thanks!

    -------------------------

    WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW for Alpha 9 LOGISTICS feature

    There are four terms that you should know about
    1. Logistics Menu (button: F4)
    2. Connected Toolbar (button: T)
    3. Wireless Control Block creating a Logistic Network Remote Accesspoint (100m range)
    4. Modular Containers

    The change you might need get accustomed to is, instead of carrying around any block or item in your backpack or placing it from there, you will want to and can rely on the new LOGISTIC feature, which not only allows you to circumvent volume and weight limitations in the future, but also allows to use this for remote actions via Wifi and the Connected Toolbar AND allows to build small-scale PRODUCTION QUEUES!

    Example what you can do with LOGISTICS
    1. Go mining.
    2. Return to your base and transfer the entirety of your mining operation into a single cargo container.
    3. Have 4 furnaces automatically start smelting the ore and depositing it into a 2nd container.
    4. Have multiple constructors able to use those newly smelted ingots for crafting whatever you need.
    5. Walk up to any of your constructors and order an individual crafting job without having to move stacks of crafting materials manually between each cargo box > player > constructor.
    6. Can easily use multiple constructors for bulk crafting jobs without having to move any materials.
    7. Can transfer entire inventories between cargo boxes (such as unloading loot from POI raids).
    8. Can do all this wirelessly within 100m of your ship or base.
    (Example by ravien_ff)

    For further explanations please see below!
     
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    Last edited: Dec 20, 2018
  2. Hummel-o-War

    Hummel-o-War Administrator
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    1. LOGISTICS - GUI

    Logistic as a whole, not only means how items and blocks can be moved WITHOUT having to move them "through" your inventory, but also how inventories of constuction devices will work from now on.

    As soon as you are in reach of a Logistic Network or standing on your base or vessel*, you can access the new logistic menu with F4 - or by facing a container and clicking F

    This is how the GUI looks like

    Logistic-Menu.jpg

    On BOTH SIDES you can select
    - a structure (even the same structure)
    - a container (cannot be the same if structure is the same)

    On the RIGHT side you can also select Fuel Tanks and O2 Tanks from an additional dropdown in order to fill them (fill-source needs to be selected to the LEFT side!)

    You can freely move around items from one side to the other (if you activated the limitation: given there is enough volume) by drag and drop, SHIFT-Click or with the buttons in the middle.

    Example: You can fill a tank of a vessel you are connected with (select vessel and tank on the RIGHT side) while standing on the base or in Wifi Range of another vessel, and moving fuel cells from any container (select source structure and container on the LEFT)

    If you want to lift and place blocks or devices that are too heavy for your player or have a volume that exceeds your inventory, you can use the CONNECT button in the middle. This will "connect" you to the base and allow you to use the Connected Toolbar (see explanation further down below)

    Note: You cannot access a container someone else has currently open.

    *Same rules apply as for the Control Panel access: if you can use the P-button to access the Control Panel you can use F4 for the Logistic menu
     
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    Last edited: Dec 20, 2018
  3. Hummel-o-War

    Hummel-o-War Administrator
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    2. CONNECTED TOOLBAR

    Virtual-toolbar.jpg

    As indicated, the integration of weight and volume limits will change how you handle blocks and items - especially the big ones: Large Constructor has 2500 L volume and your Inventory has 500 L storage capacity.

    2a. How to overcome that in order to be able to build?

    Change:
    - As soon as you are in physical touch with a structure (or in range of a Logistic Network), hit F4 and use the CONNECT button in the Logistic menu.
    - Now, you get a new toolbar, the CONNECTED TOOLBAR, which is pulled to the foreground automatically. (Switch between manual und connected toolbar with T)
    - Drag and drop large blocks to this connected toolbar.

    >> This will "virtually" add the block or device to the toolbar and let you use it from there like you would from your manual toolbar, except volume and weight limits do not play a role there

    Handling notes
    - The items and blocks you put in the connected toolbar will actually be removed from the connected container
    - When you close the Logistic Menu, another player can connect to the SAME structure/container combination and also drag blocks to his connected toolbar.
    - While still only ONE player can actually open the container (have its GUI open) at any time, several players can always use these connections for cooperative build that way, as long as everyone has the Logistic Menu closed after having connected!
    - When you get out of range (walk away from the base), the connected toolbar will get suspended and the items stored there, will "flow back" to the source container. You need to get back in range, manually reconnect to the container again and move the items to your toolbar once again (This setup is NOT stored and reconnected automatically!)
    - A WiFi block will extend the range you stay connected up to 100m.

    Technical note:
    The CONNECTED TOOLBAR is not a workaround to circumvent volume and weight limits. It is PRIMARILY a toolbar to allow building without having run back and forth between containers due to the volume limits or be able to build at all and will stay in the future iterations, as most of the midgame blocks and devices are too heavy or volumious for you to carry around in your backpack!
     
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    Last edited: Dec 20, 2018
  4. Hummel-o-War

    Hummel-o-War Administrator
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    2b. LOGISTIC NETWORK - Remote mining, deconstructing, looting, transferring

    Wifi.png

    The Logistic Menu and the Connected Toolbar do not only allow to lift heavy or voluminous devices, but, in concjunction with LOGISTIC NETWORK, also allow for cooperative actions "in the field".

    How To:
    - Add a WIRELESS CONTROL block to the structure or vessel you want to be connected with while performing any action.
    - As long as you are connected, anything you pick up, mine or loot will go to the connected toolbar / the connected container!
    - The same workflow can be used for transfering and unloading blocks that you cannot carry in your inventory between any vessel or base in reach! Just open F4 and use the dropdowns!

    Handling Notes:
    - The WIRELESS CONTROL block will EXTEND the range of the Logistic menu up to 100m FROM ITS VERY POSITION! This means: placing a Wireless Control block at the edge of a structure gives you 100m from THIS point on!
    - As long as you are STANDING ON A STRUCTURE or VESSEL you do NOT NEED a Wireless Control Block to access the network! F4 always works without any Wireless Control Block at any places where you also could use P to bring up te Control Panel

    - Check the lower left icon row: when the Wireless Control NETWORK symbol lights up, you are in range of a structure with a Wireless Control device
    - You can add more than ONE Wireless Control device per structure. Set them to the edges to max out the range.
    - A number next to the Wireless Control Network symbol indicates that there might be more than one structures available
    - You can only connect to ONE structure/container combo at the same time!
    - You do NOT have to have any weapon or drill or tool in the CONNECTED TOOLBAR to move items over the Logistic Network connection. You simply need to be CONNECTED to a receiver structure!
    - When you get out of range, you need to get back, open F4 and reconnect manually (there is no automated reconnect at the moment)
    - The Portable Constructor has NO Logistic Network at the moment, so if you decide to test volume limits enabled, you currently will not be able to place a large constructor for your base (and other blocks/devices)

    Known issue:
    - When mining cooperatively it can happen in rare cases that, although you are connected to a Logistic Network, items might drop to the ground. This can happen as the storage-method cannot move items in a container in the EXACT same second for several players. If the container is blocked in that very second, a picked up item might get dropped in front of you.
    - There is currently a limit that the Network cannot relay beyond the gridsize of 500m AND if you place a wireless network block in "connected mode" only the 1st WiFi Block within 100m from the edge of the base will relay the signals. So the MAX-range is 200m for connected build

    WifiMaxRange-201202018.jpg
     
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  5. Hummel-o-War

    Hummel-o-War Administrator
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    3. New Constructors INPUT OUTPUT

    With the new way on how logistics will be handled, the availability of internal inventories of the construction machines has changed. When you set up one of these devices and open its GUI you will notice that the devices do not have an internal inventory anymore. Instead you can assign ANY container (except fuel tanks and o2 tanks) to the INPUT and OUTPUT fields.

    Constructor-input.jpg

    3a: ASSIGN CONTAINER for INPUT/OUTPUT
    This affects: Large Constructor, Advanced Constructor, Furnace, Deconstructor, Food Processor

    Changes: You can use different containers for both - or the same.
    How to use: Click the dropdown and select a container.

    3b. Fill INPUT and empty OUTPUT
    Changes: you cannot directly grab produced items from the OUTPUT anymore and you cannot simply drop items into the INPUT. This now works with the new LOGISTIC Menu

    How to use:
    -Access the Logistic Menu by clicking on the little wheeled icon next to the assigned container.
    - The logistic view will open with the assigned container on the left. Drag and drop items from any source on the right to he input or move stuff from the output (if that container i selected).

    Note:
    - Filling the Container of a constructor does not require doing this from inside the constructor GUI. You can use the Logistic Menu, find the container you used for Input and/or Output and add or remove items and blocks at any time. You can even for example "mine" into this container while the constructor works on the ingots.
    - As long as you (or someone else) accesses an assigned container or adds something in the same second (e.g mining in ores), the construction process will be halted and resumed.
    - You actually CAN assign the outbox-assigned Container of a Constructor as the INBOX for another constructor and so on!
     
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  6. Hummel-o-War

    Hummel-o-War Administrator
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    4. MODULAR CONTAINERS

    To solve the ever-increasing demand of volume (when volume is activated as a limit), we added the new MODULAR CONTAINERS for all structures (BA, CV, SV and HV) for the initial A9 release (possibly also helpful for reworking your blueprints!)

    Modular-Containers.jpg

    Each Container consist of a
    - Container Control Unit (CC, max one per container)
    - Cargo Expansion Unit (CE)

    Note: CE/CC are available for standard containers, ammo and harvesting containers. Fridges are planned to be added anytime soon!

    Howto:
    Place the CC and add CEs or place CEs and add a CC - this works either way round.

    You can of course assign the modular containers to any Constructors as well. The mechanic is the same as for standalone containers (you need to assign the CC, as the CE will not be visible in any GUI)

    Handling notes:
    - You cannot add 2 CCs to the same modular container
    - Destroying or removing the CC will eject all the items
    - Destroying or removing an individual CE will eject all the items of the affected CE volume
    - If the available volume drops below the cargo content required, stacks will NOT be split (only full stacks are dropped!). So if there is one stack with 999 items and the only way is to get below the threshold by ejecting most items of this stack, the game will not just take the amount required, but eject the full stack at the moment.
    - If you want to place 2 modular containers side by side you need to leave a gap of 1 block between both (eg. you cannot have 2 Modular containers "touch" each other)
    - The CEs have a range of available building shapes. Highlight the CE in your toolbar and hit RMB to open the shape menu
     
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  7. Hummel-o-War

    Hummel-o-War Administrator
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    -blocked-
     
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  8. Hummel-o-War

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    -blocked-
     
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  9. Cluascorp

    Cluascorp Lieutenant

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    Okay I will have to repeat myself here. What I think is the biggest problem right now:

    The logistics window (GUI) if you ask me, is "upside down"... We need to have the player inventory where it is supposed to be. We start the game with making a portable constructor, it has its menu on the right, the player inventory on the left... So erhmmm ... What went wrong? The logistic GUI is turned all around ... And it is beyond confusing ...
     
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  10. Andipro

    Andipro Lieutenant

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    I'm of the same opinion! There is no logic of why our inventory was since ever on the left side of the screen, and now opening the logistic screen it flips to the right side?!?! Its confusing and its not intuitive.
     
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    Last edited: Dec 17, 2018
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  11. Andipro

    Andipro Lieutenant

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    Diese neue Logistik-Mechanik hat wirklich sehr viel Potenzial, muss aber noch irgendwie verbessert werden. Ich habe jetzt keine Idee wie, aber die Logik dahinter ist einfach zu schwer nachzuvollziehen (nicht intuitiv). Vor allem für Einsteiger und Gelegenheitsspieler wird dies ein echter Knackpunkt werden.
     
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  12. Hummel-o-War

    Hummel-o-War Administrator
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    Was genau ist denn schwer nachzuvollziehen?
    What do you think is hard to understand about how Logistic works?
     
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  13. Andipro

    Andipro Lieutenant

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    Sehr schwer zu erklären . Es fehlt irgendwie dieser logische physische Kontakt, zwischen einer Kiste, oder eines Konstuktors, die ich einfach öffne und den Materialen die ich darin vorfinde. Es läuft irgendwie so unnatürlich virtuell ab, dass einem anfangs die Logik hinter den Vorgängen verborgen bleibt.
    Ich hoffe dass diese Erklärung ansatzweise das erklärt, was ich (Empyrion-Profi) dabei empfinde. Würde auch sehr gerne eine mögliche Lösung unterbreiten, aber ich kann es momentan noch nicht. Bestimmt kommen noch gute Vorschläge von anderen für dieses Problemchen.
     
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  14. Damocles

    Damocles Captain

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    The default position of the player inventory should be on the left side. As it is when opening the inventory normally. (less confusion)

    Constructors and food processors should have a very small default "fallback" inventory. (like 5 slots)
    If the player wonders about the small size and wants more, they can link it to the larger boxes.
    -> Currently the player needs to understand that next to the machine, there must also be a box constructed that then needs to be linked to the input and output. That can be confusing for a first time user.

    There are certainly many other elements that could use polishing in the new inventory management.

    A lot of the issues come more from familiarity with the UI and the number of required mouseclicks, than from a fundamental problem with the inventory logic.
     
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    Last edited: Dec 17, 2018
  15. Andipro

    Andipro Lieutenant

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    Yes. This is one little thing that should help to make the new mechanic more logical to understand.
     
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  16. PHDSwagger

    PHDSwagger Ensign

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    Overall, the GUI is good and will be very useful in the future. My only issue with it is with the constructor and food processor. With their input, you should be able to select several containers to pull from as they are not as big as the old constructors internal inventory. It will be quite a hassle to have to switch between inputs to make basic items. Also, when playing in co-op, I found that what one player saw in a cargo box was not shared with the other player. This will cause a great many problems if not solved. Overall, the game is coming along wonderfully and I'm looking forward to seeing it progress.
     
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  17. silentius

    silentius Ensign

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    Hey there, I was looking for the right thread to post my "opinion" and hope this one is suitable.

    toolbar infite scrolling is a nightmare for me. I was used to do a strong push on my mouse wheel to get rid of anything in my hand. Now I just goes back to the start when you go over the end. Not sure who ask for this but it is a reverse improvement in my eyes.

    I won't join into the weight discussion since it was mentioned it is far from done...

    Not sure if it fits in here (probably not so sorry) fully retractable landing gear and the new boarding ramp would be a major improvement for my smalls ships. But with hit points of 50 and 200 its almost pointless to remove whole hullblocks. Could you maybe consider increasing the building costs and provide 500, 1000 and 2000 hitpoint versions of the landing gear so that replacing hull blocks on smaller ships does not feel that insane? The new boarding ramp could have at least 500 hit points because it replaces 3 hullblocks.

    Enough complained for now. Thanks for pushing this update to the master so quickly :)
     
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  18. MariuSS

    MariuSS Ensign

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    Sorry but i'm very angry! You are crazy or what, You are a developer you test it you do it of course it easy for you but for us the players, THE BUYERS, YOU MUST HAVE A LITTLE RESPECT TO POST A TUTORIAL , IS A ******BIG CHANGE , YOU PUT THE NEW VERSION AND **** THE BUYERS ?
     
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    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 18, 2018
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  19. Hummel-o-War

    Hummel-o-War Administrator
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    You Capslock key seems to have some issues..

    Other than that, so what exacly is your point? Seems like the GUi is understandable, but has some rough edges (which we did not hide from anyone but it was posted and stated clearly in any announcement...and if you might look to the first posts, there IS a tutorial or faq how to use the Logistic menu in case you need assistance)
     
    #19
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  20. Hummel-o-War

    Hummel-o-War Administrator
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    Good new incoming for that one - soon i hope ;)

    That is kind of a problem, as this is something that is not possible anymore with the current GUI/mechanic.

    Sure, that is relearning. But there is already a note that you need to link a container right when you open the GUI (left side). Maybe it is not obvious what to do exactly?
     
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