Before CPU were activated, there were several discussions about what CPU could be. Some speculated in a system making diversity, classes of vessels (bases?). If I recall correctly, a dev answered (after a while) that it had with some performance issues for reducing devices, NOT particularly a system for diversity. Seems RCSs and thrusters were the main targets, along with just put in a bunch of constructors just for the looks, and so on. I suggested just use PU (energy) instead, along with mass/weight. Then balance devices (and blocks) accordingly, also thrust/RCS ratio. If add devices, then need to add generators, then mass is added, then need to add more thrusters, and so on. Weapons should be heavy, shield, warp, constructor, and so on. Maybe add more devices, have those as classes. Like instead of 10 turrets, you have 1 that are as powerful and HP equivalent (added), turn speed and firing rate can be used as delimiters too. Shield vs block spam should also be something you have to choose between, unless will have a very slow vessel. For me all that would make sense, current CPU does not. CPU seems more of an experiment. See what creations will come out of it. Might be better systems though. My main issue with CPU and specializations is dev time taken away from other functionality for the game that I see as adding more enjoyment to the gameplay. You now see how much balancing that ought to be done, have mass & volume to consider too. But as I have said in other postings, I do not have the full picture, that when done CPU will work good for those that want it on and good for those turning it off, attracting more peoples at the end, more diversity of servers and players. Off topic?: Specialization could be done through cores, have already 4 (regular ones), along with some devices only to be used for some cores. Some devices have settings for different modes, like turrets. A core could also have that, so do not need many "physical" cores. Just that I do not see much sense in specialization either, because if you want to PvE or PvP, then you just set up RP rules on how to play on that server. In SP you can do whatever. Lego or finished car in the sandbox, use imagination or not? Else better create some examples of such builds, what are to be the factors that forces a framework on a build. Why should you want many different types of vessels and enforce this? Maybe some builds should be showcase, not for PvE/PvP. Should you be able to build whatever and put it in a survival game regardless?
Put simply, no one can show a single new class of ship under CPU. CPU is not specialization. Thats the WHOLE point. All these other garbage arguments, like Im going to ignore you because you dont agree, which is what it fundamentally boils down to, is the same as saying, ''yea I know its not really specialization and I cant admit it'', to stubborn or dont want to hurt the devs feelings or soemthing I dont know, but its all over these pages... True specialization would have brought in many NEW class of vessels. We have NO new classes. Show the distinct new classes Ive been asking for weeeeeeeeeeeeeks now, but no, just invalid arguments all the way, not ONE new class of actual ship in CPU at all. Thats the WHOLE point. Flight controls are what define that, not arbitrary rules made up by some guy in a room on Tuesday. Anyone who flies anything at all, knows that. All WW2 planes had wings, but did they fly the same, nope, because of surface areas shape aerodynamics etc, we can not do that in games without utterly rediculas processing requirements and no one has ever done that accurately yet, , in games its ALWAYS the flight controls that determine a ships class. Well except for Empyrion of coarse. Games like War Thunder for example, they researched all the planes, got data on turn rates top speeds, overall torque / power landing gear aerodynamics, and a dozen other parameters and thats what they use to build the flight control set for each plane, the spitfire is a different set to the Yak for example, even though both planes have wings, OMG shock horror ! In games, its always done that way to determine distinctly different planes, but we in our infinite wisdom here at Empyrion are so clever we managed to completely screw the pooch when it comes to specialization, seriously there is not even a case for CPU to be called specialization at all. CPU is completely connected to the flight control set in Empyrion because it completely effects the flight control set, its an utterly idiotic statement to suggest otherwise. The fact we dont have any actual new class of ship on Workshop, boils down to ONE thing. We did not introduce new starter cores with new flight controls. Flight controls designed for that class of ship, CVs that fly like CVs finally, yep missed that too, many types of SV flight control sets, yep missed that too, and I dont get why some of you would not want that, its a huge expansion on the game vs what it is now, I think some of you are just to stubborn to admit your flat wrong about this, CPU is not specialization, my new cores proposal WAS true new specialization and we chose to restrict the games building over expand on it, and not a single post in here proves that wrong. Guess what defines class of ship in Empyrion since 2013 to this very day, you guessed it, FLIGHT CONTROL SET CONNECTED TO THE STARTER CORE. To this day that is still how true class of ship is determined in Empyrion, all this CPU stuff, just a restriction system with a cloak that fooled a few, but not all of us.
Too often, I see many players cram a gazillion functions into various crafts, making the structures cluncky, bulked out, and power hungry. This may be an ideal style/preference for many. I do not share that opinion. I have customized the server I run to increase the challenges faced for builders/players. It has been sought by many who come to the server, and is greatly appreciated by those who want to have a longer play experience, and work toward a more rewarding perspective. Many have told me, specifically, that was what attracted them to the server, and why they choose to stick around. I have also had many player comment that they will not play on the server due to this, and that is fair, with no hard feelings, as they are not obligated/forced to endure and play on a server that doesn't suit their needs/expectations. These are a few of the many reasons I appreciate the versatility of Empyrion's configurability. It leaves it open-ended for many possibilities, and play-styles. I, personally, have specialized my builds by being more critical of what I want them to be. I have vessels that are for mining, some as scouting vessels, some for heavy armored attack vehicles. Some are freighters, some carriers, and others mobile bases. Some of my vessels, particularly HVs, aren't really even vessels at all..... They are portable turret systems, or 'quick drop' clone chambers, armor lockers, and cargo add-ons. Madical facilities, outposts, factories, refineries, homes, chalets, malls, garages... and some are just basic bases, with a clone chamber and a constructor. I have also, more recently, adjusted my building style to create specialized individual buildings with their own power supplies, in clusters. I find it way more efficient than a massive building with everything (or a majority of things) permanently on, all the time. That is specialization, or at least, what I mean when I use the word. Does the CPU system have a purpose? Yes. (see above) Is the CPU system perfect? No. It could use fine tuning and adjustments in its mechanics. That is why our input as a community is important. The devs do listen and take in the criticism. It may not feel that way for some, but they do, and have responded to such. Is there plenty of room to grow? Yes! it is still alpha, and there are many bridges yet to be crossed. In regard to new classes of ships: I would love to see cores for many various ships, such as scouting with actual radar and remote functionality, fighter ships with specialized weapons only available to that class, mining ships with fine tuned controls and purposed tools, racers with specific thrusters that can reach/surpass speed limits, cargo ships and carriers that have pick up and drop off functions... Most of all.... Submarines with turbines for propulsion, sonar, underwater warfare weapons, and actually being water tight! Off topic: I am happy to engage in respectful discussion, especially with those who don't agree with me, in an attempt to better understand others views, goal, and play-style. I understand that not everyone plays this game for the same reasons, and have preference. Luckily, for all of us, there is a multitude of options, servers, players, and opportunity to engage on many fronts, in this regard. To re-iterate: I will not engage with those who choose to misrepresent my, or any others, position to create an 'us vs. them" situation, and further miss-characterize my person based solely on their bias, or pre-existing conceptions of what the game is supposed to be. There is no need for it, and we can all be civil in discussions. No one is obligated to be harassed, miss-characterized, slandered, or talked down to. Life is too short for the time and energy that consumes, especially in the recent months. As I recall, @piddlefoot and I, among others, have had our differences in opinions, and do not agree on everything. At the end of the day, we are also steam friends, and I would only hope that is the case for myself and many others going forward. We have a great community here on empyriononline.com forums and I only hope to see it grow. Long live Empyrion, and its flawed, yet functional/purposeful CPU system, with aspirations of it growing/evolving.
Piddlefoot asked for one new type of ship since your argument is that cpu gives specialization, where is this new ship on the workshop? You gave examples of ships that were being built before CPU, where is the specialization from the restraints of cpu? And as far as the rest of your post, when you label opinions as QUOTE--"poorly formed arguments" and terrible, then you have to start with your own words.
I am not opposed to adding a separate server for this game with these settings active just to see what the preference is. Running Project Eden most people seem to find what they like with w/v and cpu off. They still get a balanced game. Still, it would be interesting to compare.
Does the CPU system have a purpose, yes, to restrict build size and ease performance on the PC. We already had weight and mass remember, the logical system for restricting your flight controls, in a natural manner that people relate to, right across the real world. The game did not need this new form of artificial restrictions. Listened to the builders of this game for this particular version 11 have they , Im not so sure, I mean CPU on inert blocks, please, every one I know hates that, but yet it stays, restricting builders of any scale and shape, restricting building. Did they listen properly when , specialization was made a couple of years ago, suggesting new cores, new flight controls and completely new classes of ships on workshop, true specialisation was literally at there fingertips, the system to bring it in, already in teh game, and flight controls, well, no they havent really listened properly on that either for this version, but version 11 is an absolute disaster for anyone who flys anything real at all ever, or any decent flight games. We know that because turning off CPU doesnt turn off the whacky flight control system. Yet in a twist of irony you can use the CPU system to, are you ready for it, restrict those flight controls to perform even worse, the mind boggles at that backwards system, it really does, when multiple flight games out there are great examples of how to do it. CPU was just completely un-needed entirely, the game needs proper specialisation, and still does. Hoping for a turn around at 12 in that regard. 12 looks pretty awesome, the devs have a good rep for listening to feedback, its just at 11, it was very very selective feedback they chose to do anything about. Whats stopping this game from, at version 13 or 14 or whatever, bringing in new Starter cores with new flight controls ? What are people afraid off ? Why not support that idea if it doesnt effect CPU ? Which it does not. You can add CPU restrictions to any new starter core with new flight controls. Why are people afraid to have real specialisation ? Why would some of you testers in here not want new flight controls, distinct from each other ? New cores and categories on workshop, think about that, its a huge expansion on this game, how did CPU expand this game at all ? We have no new flight controls no new classes of ship. We have the same ones we started with 5 odd years ago. Now restricted by CPU.
I don't think anyone is "afraid" of specialization.... I fail to see where this idea of fear comes from. I, personally, like the idea. If anything, its just not on the top of the priority list. This could be due to the size of the staff atm, or limits of their coding experience. Bug fixes seem to be a higher priority. Create dialogue around it, and bring your points to the devs attention.
Erm, did that, couple of years ago, you must have missed that bit. Not to mention many posts since in many topics. Maybe its in teh closed section and you cant see them, but CPU and the flight controls, pretty much the only thing Ive ever jacked up about in all of this games development, thats because they are simply such bad features for the game, and the game has the potential and capabilities to do and be so much better and so much more profitable. Just seem to be afraid of real specialization and real new classes from what I can tell. Makes no sense for this sort of game, to completely ruin the flight controls the way it did, but proper flight controls distinct to a type of plane, jet, space ship etc, people actually love that, lots of people, that could have also snagged a massive chunk of the flight genre players which is an utterly huge amount of players, its an utterly huge amount of money potentially lost over the long run, and it boggles my mind that it was done the way they did it, over an obvious system that would have really been attractive to all the flight genre folk. Its truly astonishing, like watching a train wreck itself in slow motion. One thing heaps of people have said, about the flying genre, is it lacks games where you can build your own plane, we have a GEM in Empyrion that could have filled that gap easy as pie, and we didnt seem to notice it at all, money for jam, wasted. Should bother every single person that wants to see this game succeed and make good profits for the devs, personally I hope they all become millionaires, but honestly, with decisions like CPU and the flight controls, it seriously damages the long term funding of the game, because those CPU or flight control features are just whacked out wonky fubar vs proper flight controls and real classes. CPU and the flight control system are nothing to rave about, they are not something you can advertise and bring in thousands of extra players. However, a targeted advertising program at the genre in question, the fight sim genre, folks that play games like War Thunder, would have brought heaps of extra players, and their word of mouth would have extended that, this game would have had the chance to become literally, legendary across multiple genres. Say what you liek about that genre, but its generates enough cash from War Thunder alone to advertise on TV stations around teh country in many countries. Can Empyrion do that......Kinda really exposes the true potential of cash missed from that decision.
Know your target audience. Most people don't play Empyrion to be a flight sim. It was never advertised as one and to make it a flight sim now would mean cutting core game features that a lot of players play Empyrion for. At that point you'd might as well make a different game. You're not going to take players from other dedicated flight sim games without turning Empyrion into its own dedicated flight sim game. That's not what Empyrion seems to be focused on.
I'm shaking my head in disbelieve about what I'm reading in this forum all the time... Even if ELEON has a similar sounding name as Elon (Musk) ... The Devs do not advertise EGS, a not yet - or even close to be - finished Game to their future buyers like Tesla does with a not jet produced car...they simply do not have the money (and Time) for that. Also a difference here is that ELEON has the guts to let Play-Testers give their input what they would like to see in the developing game. Did Elon Musk ever ask any of his future Customers? I don't think so. Sure, I read several requests for a change of how to steer a Vessel in EGS. But it seems to me that the Devs never intended to implement some sort of Flight Simulator (I think @Hummel-o-War said that very clearly). A constant comparing of EGS with other Games is, first, not Fair and second, not suitable. When EGS is FINISHED and it is compared with others.... THAT will show the differences or similarities - but not before. Btw., writing an Opinion over and over again (was it ten times now?) doesn't make it any better (for those disbelievers of a 'Holy Land Theory'). "Reading about the problems that smoking causes over and over again leads to .... stop reading!" - Sir Winston Churchill Undeniable is the fact that many Testers have taken up the challenge of CPU and trying to make the best of it! Yes, they lamenting about it whenever they do a builders Stream or a YouTube-Video! But hey! We are Humans after all! The Flight model is ANOTHER issue and discussed in another part of the forum - > https://empyriononline.com/threads/a11-new-flight-mechanic-and-techniques.90893/
It was never advertised to become an extremely restrictive sandbox either mate. So when that excuse is applied fairly, it completely fails. Means its BS. If you want to make serious money and an epic legendary game, you cross more than one genre, like Empyrions very foundation is built on, now, instead of extending that ideology we go down the road of restrictions in building, i find your excuse laughable mate, and more a case of placating the devs. Most people played and play Empyrion because of the awesome building system and freedom, and the fact it crossed a couple of genres into one game, hello, the very things being restricted. Proper flight controls and real distinct seperatable classes of ship in Empyrion is a missed golden oppertunity, the real truth to this is the fact you cant advertise CPU as a feature to bring in heaps of new players, but had you done it with real flight controls, you could have targetted that genre and really pulled some serious sales. The proof is in the sales numbers guys, none of your excuses cut it, the numbers do not lie, the numbers represent sales, a direct reflection of profit, which in that genre is very high for games that get flight controls right, Empyrion , simply put, did not get flight controls right. Some people even think CPU doesnt effect flight controls, thats a serious miss understanding of what flight controls are and how they work, go buy an RC plane and learn. The proof is the 70,000 builds on workshop that wont fly under CPU rules, because, wait for it, CPU actually effects the flight controls of the ship, dar............ To many RCS, CPU restricted flight control. To much this or that, CPU restricted. All of teh CPU restrictions penilize the flight controls, wake up. I know, its hard to accept the truth of it for the game we love, but those numbers do not lie, we all lost from this poor flight control system Empyrion uses.
@ Piddlefoot Much respect, sir. I stopped playing when CPU was put up but just recently came back when I learned that CPU was OFF by default. ALL of my builds do not and never will take this CPU system into account. Your words echo what most of us old school builders were and are thinking. The CPU system was a huge waste of time and resources.
More people would be playing this game right now if our workshop had multiple proper class titles, like Super carrier, Destroyer, Battleship, frigate, cruiser, fighter, scout, all with there own distinct flight controls, vs what we have now, its a hands down winner, proper flight controls distinct to class. Pretty much like every other flying game tries to do it. Look at average numbers and Empyrion is roughly the same, CPU did not bring anything great, no huge influx of players, did bring a heap of grief but thats about it really but now thats calmed down, being it doesnt seem likely Eleon will bother with proper flight controls or classes its simply a huge opportunity missed. Now we can hope the devs unlock the ability for us to create our own flight controls and classes by opening access to the starter block flight control parameters, that are already built into every starter block..... Waiting waiting waiting..... CPU is not the only problem here though, the actual flight controls are also, CPU can effect those controls via punishment, but the flight controls at there very core are just so pacman. They dont remotely feel like , literally anything Ive ever flown in real life. The games original flight control set, pure arcade, was far better. But we really did miss the chance to make all of this just so much better, it could have attracted tens of thusands of players, go look at games with half decent flight controls, they are really well populated, even the pay to win ones, literally hundreds of thousands of players a day logging on, what a huge target to completely miss. Half of this game is flying...., with restricted speeds, which is ok if we have decent flight controls, oh but we dont. On planets, with atmo, what a golden opportunity missed, all of the variables we could have seen in atmo flying using proper flight control parameters, sheesh, planets would have become a whole new beast to conquer and atmospheres that are dense, you would really notice in your flight controls, its really such a huge shame for Empyrion, its one of those features that can make a game exceptional, with the extra effort to do it, which we did not bother to take, CPU is cheap and nasty band-aid that doesnt even work properly. You know had we got planetary flight controls right, we might have bled tens of thousands of players from that genre, because one thing I hear in playing in the genre everyday, is players wanting the ability to build there own planes , its so depressing when I see that, what we could have done here. If we open our imagination, right now on workshop, people could be browsing, some of the most detailed and accurate rebuilds of iconic planes, like the Spitfire or BF 109 or an F14 Tomcat and a cessna and jumbo jet, all of that is possible with flight controls to suit, none of it is possible as it is now because technically they are all the same class with teh same flight controls, and its flight controls that define class in games like this. Tell me an iconic plane like the Spitfire would not attract people that saw that on workshop.......go on try and tell me that...... Anyway we live in hope the fight controls will be unlocked so we can mod the game to our desire. And hey, if Eleon do that, it doesnt hurt them or the game in anyway, its really just expanding on the games possibilities, so come on Eleon, unlock them flight controls on the starter blocks please, the modders are waiting for that access, more AI access would be nice too. Like the ability to create our own scripted AI of some form, not sure how they do that but it would be super cool. And data pads we can access for scenario's, and building a strong immersive story. I know, dont want much, but these are the sorts of features that make games really great and super longterm. Modding, MineCraft, decades strong and still going strong, , think about it, its worth doing.
@piddlefoot, Is Empyrion really supposed to be a flight sim? There is something to be said for, here is what you can build with, build what you want. I am no fan of the CPU system. I think the developers put it in the game as a way to stretch out the game play. Also people look at a game that is based in the far future, and assume no real advancement in technology. In the far future would you really need to rely on atmospheric dynamics to fly? I see si-fi movies, and shows that disregard that all the time (not having wings). Why would you develop warp drives, but not the capability to fly without wings? It seems the two go hand in hand from what I understand of the "real" research going today into warp capability.
Pretty much the cringiest point in most movies, tv-shows and books. They're assuming some advanced technology that is most of the time basic science fiction but are not imaginative enough to think different. Who says there isn't a way to build a small gravity generator into a spaceship which creates a gravity well in the way of a spaceship and pull it into a different direction that way? Who says they're actually thrusters? Maybe they're gigantic exhausts for the alcubierre drive and just put on the backside to give ships a distinct front/back? And why the heck is my heavy armor in 2400something slowing me down when humans are already producing and selling heavy duty exoskeletons in 2020?
Just curious if you have looked at this from the other side? How many players might actually leave EGS if the flight controls are more complex or the learning curve is so much higher just to appease other players who already have games designed around flight sims? I play this game for the building and survival aspects. I enjoy flying ships that I have built and I am glad that they are easy to fly and I didn't have to spend hours of my causal play time just learning how to fly. I agree there could be several improvements, but it is not a game breaker for me at least if they are never changed. CPU has it's issues, that is for sure. I hated it in the beginning, but now find myself only playing with CPU, Volume and Mass. It has brought a whole new level of challenge that I was missing. Now I have to actually "think" about builds and looting....verses the old timers way of just "stuff yer pockets full and be on yer way" or "put everything you can on yer ship...its good". Now it makes me be very creative with every ship I build. Try new layouts and setups....instead of just going with the same o' same o' "I win" design. I will admit, I edit my config files close to those of Project Eden/Reforged, with a few changes....to make CPU and V/M more desirable, while still providing more of a challenge. It has made all of my old builds from the last several years unusable, but I am ok with that. It gives me a chance to build new and creative ships and extend my enjoyment of this game.
Yea I have, more people liked the old flight control system, this does not include new players that have not experienced the old system...... More people play flight sim games than our entire game, in fact, in alot of cases one flight sim game destroys Empyrion for numbers, for example WarThunder, over 100,000 a day for over 5 years now, 1200 servers a day average, stupid costly game P2W with all of that against it, blows our numbers away, Empyrion is miles cheaper, if you offer some of those flight control features in a building game, something heaps in that genre have asked for, you cant lose. ITS THE FLIGHT CONTROLS OF DIFFERENT AIRCRAFT THAT MAKE IT POPULAR, hello ? Something players have asked for from day one of Empyrions inception, proper ship classes. The ONLY way to properly define that is with flght control sets tied to teh starter core block for that class, its literally the only uniform way to do this and its how we did it to start with, we just never expanded on it..... Its also how almost every other game dies it...... So yes Ive thought about that, and there is no reason why, with that system you cant still fly with the games original flight control system, adapted for space vessels, but now with parameter change possibilities, its win win, but people are to focussed on trying to be critical of this system or idea, most not realising this is the very system we use right now, CV, SV and HV already use this very system.
So Star Trek Deep space Nine vs Firefly or Expanse......... Thats effectively what we are talking about here, half realistic believable or just complete far fetched fantasy, that being Star Trek. Gee, seems obvious to me, WAY MORE PEOPLE like realistic over complete far fetched fantacy, why do you think SE is stil pulling more players tha Empyrion ........Could not possibly have somethign to do with realism and being able to relate to things like, omg, flight controls...........Not obvious to some of you then ? So beam me up snotty or fly a shuttle....hhmmmm here lets just look at this realsim thing from a perspective of entertainment, here watch, you tell me whats more exciting, more fun and which one you would rather play if you could, two videos , short, tell me you want bland over detailed realistic, go on....... Star Trek.... 2:19 for fight bit All I can say is ''your effects are lammmmmeeeee''....... Expanse..... And you know, damn that we cant do anything like this..... I know what I and thousands of others want, and I know what Empyrion SHOULD have had, because thats how you make a game EPIC, over the average it is now with its **** flight controls, considering half of the game is flying around, that completely SUX. With multiple sets of flight controls you have choice, as it is now, you have NO choice you will do it as you are told to , period, because the game rules dictate it being they are not flexible at all in that regard.
Mass and volume would be cool with the wifi system (Illogical, but cool) ONLY if it were working right. I mean I would love to use it, but taking out and putting into another container some really heavy stuff is not an easy task... using that connected toolbar. Not to mention how bad survival building got with it enabled. For example on a new base I almost immediately being forced to create and put in a wifi extender to avoid constant connection lost with the container which has the building blocks. clearing construction site A.K.A. drilling for more cement... is also hard constantly running back to put down the collected resource... Anyways the biggest issue with mass and volume system: These stuff (all the containers, and functions) should be interconnected. For example try to sell like 500 t2 generator from your ship's storage to an NPC... even with the connected toolbar it is hard to do... Not to mention the same amount with sniper rifles which are not stacked at all... Therefore I had to load and unload my inventory with 40 (ish) piece, and make like 15 rounds ship->trader->ship->trader... or use the wifi which is just a bit better to do each and every time. So when I have like x amount of a stuff on my ship in wifi range I should have an option to sell whatever The NPC can buy not just from my own inventory, but from all of the "ship's" containers as well in an easy fashion... (Also a max button would be cool on trader's tab. Every time typing in the max available numbers is just a pain in the ass.) (sell all/buy all) Or another "connection" issue is with constructors and such... only 1 source is allowed... what if I have a Mining CV and I usually have my ways like the following. setting up an input and an output container for the constructors... okay... and when I want to make bars from the ore? I have to re-route my system for that occasion every time. I don't like it. Or I could use the ore container as input box... but all the volumes are limited... so If I have all my basic materials in the ore container... and can't gather more resource... Or I have to do the change every time a new task emmerges. As with the CPU limitation. I like it very much, except... Try to create a monstrous size SV is almost impossible. With CV-s the system works fine. but even the t4 extenders are very restricting now that ALL of the blocks consume CPU even simple armor / hull blocks... I don't see the point. Mass is restricting because the more mass the more trusters needed. So there is no need to make another restriction (CPU for "simple" blocks) In my opinion. All in all I like the game. clocked around 800+ hours so far, keep up the good work.
