Hmm... now that I think of it... it'd be funny, & maybe balance useful, if it was possible to put Bounties on jerkass Bounty Hunters. There's totally no good reason why Bounty Hunters would ever be above the Bounty System!
For there to be any kind of Economy, there has to be Supply and Demand. And the economy has to extend beyond just a player-to-player economy. Supply exists - there are plenty of raw materials out there. We can produce our own refined goods. What we can't create is Demand, especially in SP games. We need NPC's for that. We have only the most basic of demand right now, in the form of NPC traders who will buy certain goods. There are still a number of things they will not buy. Ever try to pawn a "Gently used Warp Drive", or "Like New T2 Repair Bay"? Good luck with that. But the addition of additional materials Demand from NPC traders would make an active, robust economy viable. Now I realize, most of this can already be done via custom configurations and yaml-magic, but that's a lot of work, and not exactly conducive to either a SP environment, or a real sense of a living economy.
Ways to get economy going: "Trade between factions": i.e. akua trade their food for advanced tech from Polaris. AFAIK, this can only be simulated in the game through the use of freighters. Have freighter convoys from the different trading factions flying around each-other's space. I'm not sure if it's possible, but to take it further, the convoys could stop at the POI stations in that sector and exchange goods. You could even simulate this too by just having the freighter convoys swing by the stations in a sector. This make it really interesting for players and players can have some choices to make. They can attack the convoy or escort it to protect from drones/Zirax/pirates ( either choice should impact your standing with that faction). As it is, freighters are there just to add life to the game, because there is no real point in raiding them. A freighter with cargo boxes mostly empty or 3 cans of soup seems silly. Fill them up at least with basic ores, you know make it like a freighter.... To balance it so its not too easy, give them escorts. Right now it doesn't matter who I sell my goods to, and there is no real incentive or advantage to try and seek out the best traders in the game, because the price differential is negligible, not to mention the current traders don't purchase in bulk -please allow traders to buy in bulk, whats the point of mining hundreds of thousands of ore in single player with no one to sell it? Wares and loot should be worth more or less depending on which faction you are buying/selling from. For instance, selling foodstuffs to Polaris will yield higher price than tech, selling tech to Akua would yield higher price than foodstuff, etc. You could make it so the higher rank you have with a faction, the better deal you get on purchasing or selling with them. This will make trading profitable and more feasible to make money. You could also integrate this into the in-game mission system. Maybe the Polaris "hire" you to go raid a Zirax freighter and bring back some valuable cargo to help them in their war effort. etc, etc. Allow CV mining turrets to automine. depending on complexity involved, maybe allow targeting priorities, similar to how all the turrets work now, except instead of devices, it could be resource type. that way if i only want to mine ICE, i can set my mining turrets to target ice only. I don't think having mining turrets automine is OP, because you still have to scan for resources (thanks to this great new update) and pilot the ship through the asteroid field. It's not like you could just park and come back to tons of resources. For those of us who like to mine though, this change paired with the previous one would really lend some depth and dimension to that aspect of the game. In addition, I know from listening to the Q&A devs are working on the AI to allow it to do things like ambush the player. That would work well with the improvements I'm suggesting because then you could be out mining ice, minding your own business, but the Zirax show up and ambush you, quite exciting! This is a well known mechanic that you'll find in many other games. Finally, there needs to be items in game that can only be bought with credits. The only way you can have a functioning economy is by having something that has demand. Well right now there is no demand for anything with credits, because there is nothing worth getting or having with credits that you can't get any other way, often times easier. I heard one of the devs mention a new 'advanced' core that will allow your ship to ignore cpu limits. I think this is the perfect opportunity to jump start the economy side of the game. Make it an item that you can only get from a trader if you have the right amount of credits. It's fair because no matter how you play the game, you can still earn it. Whether you get your credits via mining, trading, pirating, spoils of war, etc. everyone will have the opportunity to earn the new tech. It's something everyone will want, so it offers a unique opportunity to introduce something new into the game for everyone to reach for. As you can probably tell by now, I think it should be quite expensive to purchase and more of a midgame-endgame item. This 'adv core' is the perfect item to start getting the economy going with imo, because it is not only something everyone could earn, no matter how they play, it's also something everyone would want, no matter how they play. Hear me out for a second. If I start the game out and decide to start making money by trading, well I'll likely build myself a SV trader to get started, maybe I'll sell some fruits and veggies from the Akua to the Polaris to start making my first credits. Well eventually I'll want to upgrade and my end game would be to end up in a huge CV with tons of storage for wares and defensive turrets so I can trade without having to go around Zirax space. I'll want that adv core to help me out with the cpu limits to achieve this. Same thing for mining. I think it's quite obvious why anyone engaged on the fighting side of things would want one (if not many) for their war fleet against the Zirax. So my point is it's an item that everyone would want and could get, so its perfectly equitable and doesn't punish anyone's play style. I think it would be perfect to jump start the economy/trading part of the game. No, I don't think every new item should be put on the market for a price, but I do think there should be some items which are unique in some way that should definitely only be attainable through the market, and not EVERYTHING be loot-able or build-able. Those are my ideas for getting trading and the economy to be fun for players. I have no clue how hard it is to code these things into the game, but it seems to me much of the building blocks are there. Having the Polaris pay higher credits for certain goods vs the Akua, Zirax, etc can be done quite easily. Setting up escorted freighters of the different factions trading between them, can be done now I would think. The logic is quite simple: If Polaris are at war with Zirax, then no Zirax "freighter convoys" will spawn in Polaris territory, else X,Y,Z freighter convoys will spawn in said territory. I'm not even suggesting these freighter convoys be carrying ACTUAL wares from the ACTUAL traders of the different factions (although in future updates, that level of persistence would be ideal) for now I think it's good enough to just have freighter convoys of the different factions spawn in their trading partners' territory. That gives me the player some choices. I can raid some of them, all of them, or none of them. I can help them out if they come under attack from Zirax or other forces, I can escort them myself if I'm in the mood for it, etc. Of course my choices and decisions would have necessary consequences such as gaining or losing reputation. Targeting for mining I'm envisioning working just like targeting for all the other turrets, instead of device priority, it's just resource type. There is already a mission giving system in place, and now with the ability for devices to give mission prompts, etc, that can be hooked into the factions as well. that way you could be given missions from the different factions to bring them "X amount of Ore, X amount of blocks, X amount of Pentaxid, etc" which will give you increased ranking with them. Or missions to "attack this base" where they give you a waypoint to attack a Zirax Base. "intercept this freighter", the list goes on and on. It seems to me with A12 brings a lot of polishing of things and trying to tie it all together. These are my ideas on how to bring even more parts of the game together, specifically the economy and trading, in a cohesive way that would be fun for players.
Hmmm, well i fugured out some solutions in terms of purchasing ships, setting and holding a certain balance without the use of mods from A12 on. The new tokens are a powerfull tool, especially since they can be set to single time use and then dissapear. The way i do this is actually pretty simple and not as elegant as having a command to set faction to 0 inside the structures logic system. What i would see as the best way, since the structure would use this command on itself without the need of finding out its own ID. But how does that work for me with the (from A12) given tools? Well, for small vessels this is very easy since you just need a base poi with a bunch of separated hangars and some trader that sell the tokens to enter them. This can be optimized by using some sensors to mark the hangar as unsealed and later close and lock the empty hangar. For bigger cv's and a base this wouldn't work this way so i came up with the idea of a core box outside the structure, with a switch to blow the core behind a door wich can be unlocked with a purchased token. Just mount you own core and its yours. When using the hangar solution on a server you can use a separated playfield and wipe it from time to time to spawn new vessels. The core box system might work in sp too, but i figured it out for a mp game so admins cann add new vessels to the ship yards from time to time and have some control which ships gonna be more or less common. Like i said, with a logic command to set structure faction to 0 this could be much more elegant. All the balancing stuff is mostly working on config. You can remove certain devices from tech trees if you dont want players to be able to construct them, but those items can always be restored by the rep bay. So if we lock some turrets for the player, the players can buy a ship with a fixed weapon loadout, but he cant change anything about it. To avoid players trying you should however set up some info lcd. Additionally i picked one material type in the config for locked items and set the multitool pick-up-damage to 0, so player can get back the materials, but not the device. And if the player tries to pick up such a device he will get the 0 damage message making clear there is something wrong with what he is trying.
Another great thing about having a simulated economy is it can drive exciting opportunities for combat. I would love an active DMZ between Polaris/Zirax with lots of engaging battle in space and ground with base attacks everywhere. This would fuel need for goods and supplies with lots of ships coming in to deliver so player can take part in various things like mission to protect/raid cargo, infiltrate enemy POIs, etc. When and if Eleon gets territory to work if it is being shifted back and forth it could stimulate lots of side activities on top of whatever other quests Eleon has up their sleeves.
Not to mention, it would be cool to come across barren markets and over stocked/overstimulated economies. If you are literally one of the sole providers of a product, that are you are moving via black market trade, think of how immersive and rewarding it would be to strike it rich like that!
I'd ditch the stock market idea as in every case I know like X3: Albion Prelude the stock market just leads to exploits and that is it. All in all a BIG YES to you sir. Even Space Engineers managed to implement purchase of vehicles and ships. And those guys are not intending to build a game they're just fans of Lego block building.
Honestly I think stuff like Stock Markets is just a form of Gambling, & Gambling is a retarded thing to do. Other people's mileage may vary.
If you really want to trade, you'd better switch to X4. Don't think that the Empyrion programmers really want to push this forward. :-(
The complexity of the system proposed in the first post reaches far beyond the simple establishment of a "trade market". Lots of things would rely on code running in the background all the time, NPCs would be actively involved, factions, banks, authorities, etc. Simple player-to-player trading can be done without too much hassle, but the initial proposal looks like an entire game all by itself. The "core" mechanics already have performance issues on mid to low end PCs, adding this thick layer of scripted markets and NPC autonomy would not improve things.
i'll join the conversation because i actually thought about this a lot. i grew up on "Elite 3" if you know what i'm talking about and it was about live economy with high and low demands, illegal goods different for different planets, prices growing when you buy and dropping when you sell. so i can't say that i don't want a new game with realistic physics and realistic economy where i can buy grain on an agricultural planet and sell it to some orbital factory where i can buy cheap parts for my ship. but empyrion is not about economy, it's about survival. mechanics like that will not add anything to survival. economy game is when you buy a lot of goods, fight pirates on the way then sell them and stay in a fancy hotel, buy a bigger ship, buy more goods and so on. survival is about collecting garbage on a planet that tries to kill you to make a somewhat working ship that will let you get somewhere else where you're less likely to die and to collect more specific garbage that will make the ship fly a little farther and so on. the economy model that will add something to survival is economy of used ships and scrap yards with a complex parts compatibility model. like if you find a broken ship or buy a barely flying one that was made with technologies of intelligent bugs for example then you need to find replacement parts compatible with that technology or find a factory running by those bugs that will make the parts for you. or make friends with one of those bugs and ask him to get these parts for you. or somehow get a blueprint and a factory module that will allow you to craft these parts yourself. then if you go to another planet that hates these bugs or never met them and something brakes on your ship you'll have to leave it behind and buy a new one because no one will repair it for you. that will make you to continue to survive even after you get a ship and leave the initial planet. each planet will require a local ship with some local specifics because you'll be able to find a service for this ship there. but a new ship must be not affordable and an old one will give a feeling that your ship is trash and it barely can take you anywhere and after that it brakes and you have to survive again. actually fully functional bases on capital ships already ruin the survival. when you get somewhere you don't need local food because you grow it yourself, so you don't have to explore local wilderness. you don't need to scrap any debris or ruins because you can produce everything from ore on board. you don't actually need to look for ore and mine it because you can easily buy it if you know a merchant who buys some expensive things you can produce like K2 generators for 50k each. survival ends when you build your first CS and that is not good. there must be always something that returns you to the state of survival if you don't stay at the same place. that will send you to the search for scrap or food and force you to get familiar with local environment, culture and technology. but if you settle down and arrange all supplies you don't have to survive anymore and you can finally build some serious stuff. but as you build it and you move you must get back to survival again at the new place inevitably because the stuff you built will break and you'll have to settle down again to fix it if you are not lucky enough to just by a replacement part. that would be an awesome survival economy model!
Blueprints are a NO. I think the current BP spawn is a placeholder anyway for future improvements. I'd much prefer if they went the route of orbital bases having a factory object block similar to a constructor that allowed you to spawn any blueprint within a given radius of the base. Currently, I do not like the "spawn at base" requirement because it forces you to build a stupid block platform to spawn your craft upon. Fine for a small SV for HV, but terrible for very large CV blueprints. I'd rather have a "spawn within vicinity of base" option where as long as *any part* of your craft blueprint touches the build radius, the Factory goes to work on assembling your design; maybe with an outline representation of the craft to show assembly progress. This way we could create our own orbital assembly rigs to build huge CVs without the base having to be larger than the CV (which is kinda stupid). Otherwise, they could just balance the existing vendor prices so the production and sale of sniper rifles doesn't drive the economy.
All of this is a well-known problem. My first MMO was Ultima Online (1997) and players and designers were already discussing a better game economy back then. There used to be a post in a forum, but I can't find it. The short version: In an MMO or multiplayer game there is the fundamental problem of endless generation of resources through mining and money through loot. This throws every balance out of balance. The second point is there is no real need. The NPCs don't consume anything and they actually don't need anything because they don't have any needs. This means that players are always infinitely rich and can buy just about anything there is to buy. I hope this doesn't discourage you. Have fun
