INFO & FEEDBACK [Alpha 11] CPU Points and Tiers - How does it work?

And what are we specializing in, when there are still device limits?
I saw a replica of HW Kushan Support Frigate, wonderful looking, and horribly useless...
That thing shoud've had 10+ repair bays, capable of repairing an entire squad of fighters, at the expense of being totaly unarmed, and defenseless without the rest of the fleet...
I don't think You can get any more specialized than that...

 

That is what i hoped CPU would do for a specialization system. Like an heavy attack CV, heavy armor, good shields and 10 artillery turrets that can work on planets and in space. But in order to fit those 10 turrets in, it has to compromise CPU to those weapons and needs to spare them on things like growplots, supporting a fleet of fighters, and fast acceleration/turning.
Right now it limits every vessel in every aspect while still have block limits and playfield limits in place. I would like to see a more intuitiv and dynamic system in place.

Maybe they keep on working on that system beyond a11. Then good. If not and they call it a finished system... well, that is actually bad.

I really hope that this implementation of that CPU system is not the final call.

 

But... you wouldn't have a heavy attack CV with those extra things.
What you've described is a destroyer: medium speed, medium armor and many long-range high damage guns. It keeps its distance from an enemy and takes a big dump on them from the edge of their range.
Fleet carrier and supply ship a destroyer is not. Those are their own specializations.

 

I think the CPU system is a step towards removing device limits, though there will probably still be some limits due to technical reasons. (Don't want someone building a ship with 100 turrets to crash the server.)

 

It wouldn't crash the server. Empyrion has a hard coded limit on how many weapons can be active at once per structure. The game never allows more than 21 weapons to be active and firing at a time per structure. Any weapons over the 21 limit just sit there inactive and don't fire.

This limit also applies to manual fire weapons as well as things like drills.
You can build a giant HV with 50 T2 drills but only 21 will ever work at once, for example.

I do see CPU as eventually lifting some of the device limits, but only some of them.
I don't think it would ever be fair to allow something like 10 artillery turrets on one structure.
Maybe trading all other turrets for 1 extra artillery, so maybe 3 instead of the usual 2 limit or something like that?

At the end of the day though CPU is always going to be optional from what we've heard. This means the same limits we've always had will likely always stay, since those limits are the ones that apply with CPU turned off. I don't think we're likely to ever see 2 separate configs (one for CPU active and one CPU off), so this means limits probably won't ever change much.
Edit
Much in the same fashion in how V&M played out. We'll always be limited in slot count on top of V&M for the simple fact that V&M can be disabled.

 

Well right now you can disable block limits anyway, so I could see people or servers enabling CPU but disabling block limits.

 

cpu tiers:

currently t4 is the only usable size for svs/hvs/cvs at any point past the very start of the game
to fix this all you really need to do is change the numbers a bit
because t2 is the highest tier craftable without rare poi drops, it should represent a standard size for a ship that is able to do most tasks, although it would still be small
also, the tiers should progress at a reasonable rate so you dont end up where only 1 or 2 of the tiers are usable with the others just being filler
using this logic, the tiers should be

sv/hv: t1 = 50k, t2 = 100k, t3 = 200k, t4 = 400k
cv: t1 = 2.5mil, t2 = 5mil, t3 = 7.5mil, t4 = 10mil
ba: t1 = 250k, t2 = 500k, t3 = 1mil, t4 = 2mil

with this setup a player could get away with just having t2, but they would be heavily limited in terms of their ship/bases size
also, with tiers being set this way it would make sense to increase how inefficient ships become when they go over the tier, with doubling the cpu making your ship closer to 25% efficiency instead of the current 72%, as with reasonable numbers such as these theres no reason for players to build over the cpu caps, and should be punished much more for exceeding the caps
with the tiers being set to these values it also means that players dont need to have t3 or t4 to make a functional ship, and therefore t3 and t4 can be made much more difficult to obtain, key word being more difficult, not more rare, as making them rare just provides extra grind with no real benefit to gameplay, while making them difficult to obtain by making them a reward for a hard task would mean that there would be actual incentives to do hard tasks
these hard tasks could include clearing an extremely hard poi, doing a mission, capturing an objective, etc


cpu for parts:

the cpu numbers, although probably not intentionally, do work fairly well for limiting ships in good ways
currently, cpu is heavily dependent on how much thrust a ship has, which means that heavier ships in a tier move much slower than lighter ships
most of a ships weight comes from its armor, so this, alongside the top speed changes, means that ships with less armor in a tier move faster than ships in the same tier which have more armor
this helps move combat away from giant armor bricks that take an hour to kill to lighter ships that rely more on piloting skill to dodge shots|


if youre wondering why you should trust what im saying, im one of the most skilled pvp players in the game (if you think differently id be happy to 1v1 you), i have thousands of hours of experience in pvp, im in what is widely considered the most skilled pvp faction in the game, and i know a significant amount both pve and pvp gameplay in empyrion from playing and learning about the game for such a large amount of time on many different servers


ship to ship docking within the same ship type:

although the idea of ship to ship docking within the same ship type is a good idea in theory, it can easily lead to lots of exploits
to avoid a lot of these exploits a simple change needs to be implemented:

make docked ships transparent to turret ai

this change to turret ai would prevent players from docking sheets of armor to their ship to prevent turret ai from targeting the main ship behind the layer of armor by blocking the turrets los
making docked ships transparent to ai would completely negate this issue as turrets would just see right through the docked ship and still fire at the main ship even with the docked ship blocking los


some examples of efficient ships and what tiers they should occupy after rcs is taken out:

t1:
magitek gatboat - sv - https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1723275866
magitek miner - hv - https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1723265097
magitek travel pod - cv - https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1723380313
starter pad - ba - https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1723319544
these are extremely small minimal starter ships that a player would use to start the game, they represent what a minmaxed starter ship should be able to accomplish while being well under the cap for t1 as most players starter ships are much less efficient than these

t2:
princess superstar - cv - https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1723386102&searchtext=princess
licorp ocypete - cv - https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1561207815
licorp catfish - sv - https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1646388328
licorp janissary - hv - https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1887011800
these are relatively small ships that are able to perform most tasks a player would wish to do; they represent what an efficient ship should be able to accomplish in t2

t4:
licorp monsoon - cv - https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1801971262
nagame - cv - https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1893909379
these are large combat ships that are around the limit for how large ships should be allowed to be while fitting inside cpu limits; they represent the endgame for any player/faction and the upper end of what a ship should be able to accomplish in t4

 

Our experience is even worse than that (on a server with no limits) once we went over 21 less than 21 fired at once.

 

it chooses a total of 21 manual weapons that will fire at once, and it will only ever shoot those 21
ex. if you have 6 gats and 50 drills, 6 gats and only 15 of those 50 drills will ever fire if all 6 gats also fire

 

Your linked T2 CVs are level 25. T2 is meant for levels 10-14. For reference, the CV you linked for T1 has a level 10 requirement & is in th target range for T2. The numbers you're giving basically render the concept of CPU meaningless & even your own examples reveal that. I couldn't imagine reasonably using more than 2.5 million CPU on a level 10 CV, or more than 50k on a level 7 SV or HV.

You're better off disabling the mechanic if those are your expectations, because if what you suggest was implemented, there wouldn't be a noticeable difference.

 

Dev thought process:

Problem 1: people are skipping directly from early game to end game with nothing but asteroid mining & then facerolling all the content
Solution: require a part for high-end vessels that can only be found while going through the content (or displaying an in-depth knowledge of the game's economy)

Problem 2: people are piling thrusters on ships & making them far more maneuverable than is reasonable, which the game engine has difficulties keeping up with
Solution: put in a mechanic that limits thruster count

Problem 3: level limits on equipment makes each piece mandatory during design. Either a level 12 vessel has all the available level 12 toys, or you did something wrong. This effectively homogenizes the workshop
Solution: put in a mechanic that limits those devices, especially at lower levels, making each one a strategic choice. Maybe 8 constructors is too many, especially on an HV.

Problem 4: the minimum social standard of expectations for a starter vessel gives them resource requirements far beyond what's reasonable at that level
Solution: put in a mechanic that limits just how much you can fit in at lower levels.

Problem A: people are complaining about CPU limiting high-end design. People are complaining about hull blocks costing CPU
Solution: increase T4 limits so much that the complaint becomes moot.

Problem B: players think there's problems with CPU, especially because the mechanic is trying to fix too many problems at once
Solution: maintain heading. Lowered expectations boost morale.


These aren't problems in my mind so much at the problems I think the dev team sees.

Option A: they don't respond. My explanation becomes canon by default. Worship me because I've written the new scripture.

Option B: they contradict me. You & I both get the explanation we were looking for. Worship me because I have the ear of the gods.

Option C: they see my post & it becomes the new explanation because- https://y.yarn.co/d4958c5d-00da-4300-9279-5520208316e4_text_hi.gif
Worship me because I am your new god.

 

do you know that leveling from 10-14 takes like, 5 minutes

not sure why youre under the impression each tier should last for a few minutes then be thrown out and replaced by the higher tier

same applies to this guy

1. if they didnt want people skipping through the "progression" so fast they would make it so that theres an actual progression, not just shooting zirax for 30-60 mins then being able to craft everything

2. games engine has difficulties keeping up when super large ships do this, if they wanted to reduce the strain on the engine they already have size class. also, they doubled the top speed for svs and 1.5x the top speed on cvs. if they wanted people to move slower, they wouldnt make ships faster

3. this one is just completely pointless. theres already something that does this much better, its called things cost stuff to make. this is a mainly a sandbox building game (the survival is really minimal compared to building) so if i want to make a starter hv with 8 constructors that takes a decade to collect resources for, i should be allowed to do so

4. the "social expectations" for starter ships are the minimum you need for having a decent starter ship. ex. all those magitek ships you obviously saw

p a. lazy solution to a system that removes chances to make interesting gameplay

p b. no, fix the problems, dont just ignore
duh

o a-c. just stop mr. narcissist

 

You do know that the whole leveling system is a placeholder and will be reworked? I wouldn't be surprised if each tier lasted much longer in the future.

 

completely pointless, you dont know if or when a new leveling system would come out and you have no idea what it would look like

your entire point rests on a non-existent update you think might happen sometime in the future

maybe try basing an argument on something that isnt pure theorycrafting or "it might change in the future"

 

When it will come out has been roughly sketched out and what it'll look like has been too.
Q&A with Hummel-o-war by SpanJ confirmed that the levelling system will be getting replaced by a research-based system sometime in the near future; around the end of A11 or early A12 as long as there aren't any big problems that push the deadline back.

 

Agree. I'm usually 25 before I even build an SV. In my most-recent play-through for 10.6-EXP, I was 25 before I had an armed HV, still driving a small level 3 HV and living out of an "Old Farm." Its a side-effect of enjoying being a foot soldier hunting drones and Zirax patrols. Conceal the HV outside the Zirax patrol region and then sneak in.

 

I tend to mostly agree. It feels a bit like the mass / weight calculation. The game has become more realistic (e.g. you can no longer carry around 35 full stacks ore on your back or T2 Generators). However, it did not make the game more playable. It is good to add challenges to the game, but they should not become chores. And even with the network, where you can move large or heavy items between different containers it is still a pain for me. I am a bit worried this will be the same. Having to (micro)manage CPUs. But as others have mentioned, we will have to see when this comes ava1ilable. I sometimes miss the old days, where you could just build what you want without having to think about realistic designs, where to place what thruster, how much space or weight is involved, etc.

 

I'm having some difficulty reconciling the fact that "starter" seems to mean whatever is convenient for you while still taking your points seriously.

So how about you just stick to your pet issue here? Based on the fact that your "suggestion" (which is almost definitely going to be ignored) increases SV/HV CPU to 400% of their current values, I'm guessing it's that you don't like limitations being placed on endgame vehicles.

 

I've only been playing in SP and usually find myself playing a game where I try to become honored with all three NPC factions, This allows me to fly around in a woefully inadequate SV and not get blown up every time I run into a Zyrax drone. Now my concern with the A11 CPU cores implementation is that the cost of the parts at the traders will require me to spend months IRL playing the game and selling my stacks of steaks and what not to the traders before I am able to afford even a single Extender component. I would prefer to be required to have 8-9 different ores required and an advanced constructor before I could craft an extender, in short the loot object requirements for building advanced items seriously restricts the available play approaches that allow one to advance to the larger/ more complex equipment.