Hey all, I've written about this issue in the past several times, but things never appear to change. I wanted to see what others think about this. I'll share a recent example of one of the things wrong with melee-attack critters in the game. I'm pretty early-game - I've not left my starting planet, though I have my first mobile-base CV up and running - I'm testing the current version of Reforged Eden FYI. I'm using the Light Suit with a jetpack boot, so being fast and nimble are my primary defences against melee attackers. However, said attackers seem to often be able to bypass this defence with ease... I encounter a Nightmare, nasty buggers, fast and agile thanks to their ability to instantly turn, but I'm faster equipped as I am. I spot it before it reacts to me and run (I'm fast) and jetpack jump away, I'm no where near it in less than a second. However, the game had already decided I was going to be hit. Why? Well, as I've observed many times before, the Nightmare must have started its attack animation while I was fairly close (but still technically out of range) to it. Even though I was several metres away with my entire parked SV between myself and said Nightmare, I was still "hit" by the attack. In essence it seems, if the player in even remotely in-range* when the animation starts, they will be "hit" even if well out of range when the animation finishes. Imagine, the attacker pull their fist back when the player is about two metres away, the player dodges to six metres away at the moment the "punch" completes. They player takes damage, yet was nowhere near, that's not right. This is frustrating, especially when the false "hit" imparts infections and the like. My key defence is not to be there when the blow would land, but that's negated by this odd mechanic. There are of course other issues with melee attackers too, an example being their ability to often attack through other blocks. I.e. the player is up higher than the critter with a compete L-Class block between them and the attacker. However, the critter attack animation clips right into the block and, as we know, anything that clips into a block will attack as if that block is not there. This is a problem. Another example of a problem with melee critters is how they are able to walk right up to you, clip into you and repeatedly attack while, at the same time due to their clipping, player shots do nothing. In theory, back to the wall firing the player should be in a relatively strong position vs. a couple of melee attackers assuming good DPS, however this isn't true. They just run up to the player, shrugging off attacks ** before clipping into the player. This can get worse when attackers clip into each other, both can then attack the player through each other, yet the player struggles to hit either of them. As an aside, have you ever jetpack jumped over an enemy and seemed to hit something despite being several metres above them? I certainly have, most recently with those Golem dudes (gigas in Reforged Eden). I shoot them as they close in, jetpack jump over them before turning to shoot them in the back. However from time to time, I snag of something as I jump over them and will land right on top of them if I'm out of boost. I've also been "hit" by them if this snag lines up with their attack animation. Gun play and combat in general isn't as tight as certain dedicated FPS titles, I don't really care about that. However, I do care about the issue listed here where the outcome - aka player getting hit, infected or even killed - does NOT match how the actual events played out. In my example, I was never in Melee range of that Nightmare, and was well away from it and behind my SV when its attack animation completed, yet I was hit and infected. My (limited lol) skill at successfully not being there counted for nothing. That's frustrating. Anyway, just wanted to share my experiences with this aspect of gameplay again and to see what others think about it. I'm just playing solo, not part of a group, so I can't see any of this being weird lag issues - I know the game can have fps issue in MP potential, this isn't that. Cheers, Scoob. *Note than many Critters "Melee" attack extends well beyond the visual range of the attack. ** Not asking for a return of the infinite stun-lock we had once before, but some reaction to being shot, perhaps a slowing of speed or a slight knock-back effect.
Just looking at the configs I can see that the ranges set for the various melee weapon types is ridiculously overstated. This seem to be the relevent section here: Spoiler Code: { +Item Id: 505, Name: MeleeRockGolem, Ref: MeleeTemplate { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 0.75, type: float Range: 4 Damage: 170 Buff: "FractureClosed,FractureOpen,Mutilation" Buff_chance: "0.25,0.1,0.01" SfxBegin: Enemies/RockGolem/MONSTERGrowlDeep08aShort } } { +Item Id: 506, Name: MeleeCaveWormWhite, Ref: MeleeTemplate HoldType: 20 { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 0, type: float Range: 4.5 Damage: 150 SfxBegin: Enemies/CaveWorm/CritterSFX-Short_3 Buff: "Frostbite,DermalParasite" Buff_chance: "0.4,0.15" } } { +Item Id: 507, Name: MeleeMegalonopsGrey, Ref: MeleeTemplate { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 2, type: float Range: 6.5 Damage: 100 SfxBegin: Enemies/Megalonops/Megalonops_SfxAttack Buff: OpenWound Buff_chance: 0.1 } } { +Item Id: 508, Name: MeleeMegalonopsBrown, Ref: MeleeTemplate { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 2, type: float Range: 9 Damage: 150 SfxBegin: Enemies/Megalonops/HybridGrowl02 Buff: OpenWound Buff_chance: 0.2 } } { +Item Id: 509, Name: MeleeLizardMule, Ref: MeleeTemplate { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 2, type: float Range: 6.5 Damage: 180 SfxBegin: Enemies/LizardMule/LizardMule_SfxAttack Buff: OpenWound Buff_chance: 0.2 } } { +Item Id: 510, Name: MeleeLizardMuleBaby, Ref: MeleeTemplate { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 2, type: float Range: 3.5 Damage: 90 SfxBegin: Enemies/LizardMule/attack Buff: OpenWound Buff_chance: 0.1 } } { +Item Id: 511, Name: MeleeSpinosaurus, Ref: MeleeTemplate { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 3, type: float Range: 5 Damage: 75 SfxBegin: Enemies/Spinosaurus/HybridGrowl Buff: OpenWound Buff_chance: 0.1 } } { +Item Id: 512, Name: MeleeTriceratops, Ref: MeleeTemplate HoldType: 20 { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 0, type: float Range: 4 Damage: 200 SfxBegin: Enemies/Triceratops/Triceratops_SfxAttack Buff: "OpenWound,FractureClosed,FractureOpen,Mutilation" Buff_chance: "0.4,0.25,0.1,0.01" } } { +Item Id: 513, Name: MeleeGolem2, Ref: MeleeTemplate { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 2, type: float Range: 5 Damage: 150 SfxBegin: Enemies/GolemDesert/GolemDesert_SfxAttack Buff: "FractureClosed,FractureOpen,Mutilation" Buff_chance: "0.25,0.1,0.01" } } { +Item Id: 514, Name: MeleeWorm, Ref: MeleeTemplate HoldType: 20 { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 0, type: float Range: 3.5 Damage: 100 SfxBegin: Enemies/Worm/Worm_SfxAttack Buff: "PoisonBit,OpenWound,DermalParasite" Buff_chance: "0.2,0.15,0.1" } } { +Item Id: 515, Name: MeleeOtyugh, Ref: MeleeTemplate HoldType: 20 { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 2, type: float Range: 5 Damage: 120 SfxBegin: Enemies/Otyugh/Otyugh_SfxAttack Buff: "PoisonBit,FractureOpen,EndoParasite" Buff_chance: "0.2,0.15,0.1" } } { +Item Id: 516, Name: MeleePlantMonster, Ref: MeleeTemplate { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 2, type: float Range: 3.5 Damage: 90 SfxBegin: Enemies/PlantMonster/PlantMonster_SfxAttack Buff: "PoisonBit,OpenWound" Buff_chance: "0.2,0.15" } } { +Item Id: 517, Name: MeleeSlime, Ref: MeleeTemplate { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 2, type: float Range: 2 Damage: 75 SfxBegin: Enemies/Slime/Slime_SfxAttack Buff: "Frostbite,DermalParasite" Buff_chance: "0.4,0.15" } } { +Item Id: 518, Name: MeleeCrawler, Ref: MeleeTemplate HoldType: 20 { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 0, type: float Range: 3.5 Damage: 100 SfxBegin: Enemies/Crawler/Crawler_SfxAttack Buff: "PoisonBit,OpenWound,DermalParasite" Buff_chance: "0.3,0.15,0.1" DamageMultiplier_1: 2.5, param1: metal|metalhard DamageMultiplier_2: 5, param1: hull|hullarmored|hullcombat|concrete|woodblock } } { +Item Id: 519, Name: MeleeAlienBug01, Ref: MeleeTemplate HoldType: 20 { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 0, type: float Range: 3.5 Damage: 90 SfxBegin: Enemies/AlienBugs/AlienBug01/AlienBug01_SfxAttack Buff: "Stunned" Buff_chance: "0.7" } } { +Item Id: 520, Name: MeleeAlienBug02, Ref: MeleeTemplate HoldType: 20 { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 0, type: float Range: 2 Damage: 120 SfxBegin: Enemies/AlienBugs/AlienBug02/AlienBug02_SfxAttack Buff: "DermalParasite,InfectedWound" Buff_chance: "0.3,0.15" } } { +Item Id: 521, Name: MeleeAlienBug03, Ref: MeleeTemplate HoldType: 20 { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 0, type: float Range: 3.5 Damage: 200 SfxBegin: Enemies/AlienBugs/AlienBug03/AlienBug03_SfxAttack Buff: "DermalParasite,InfectedWound" Buff_chance: "0.35,0.2" } } { +Item Id: 522, Name: MeleeWormLarge, Ref: MeleeTemplate HoldType: 20 { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 0, type: float Range: 5 Damage: 150 SfxBegin: Enemies/Worm/MonsterScreams-16 Buff: "PoisonBit,FractureOpen,DermalParasite" Buff_chance: "0.3,0.2,0.2" } } { +Item Id: 523, Name: MeleeWoodWalker, Ref: MeleeTemplate { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 2, type: float Range: 4 Damage: 150 SfxBegin: Enemies/Golem2/HybridGrowl Buff: FractureOpen Buff_chance: 0.25 } } { +Item Id: 524, Name: MeleeAlienBug04, Ref: MeleeTemplate { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 2, type: float Range: 3.5 Damage: 150 SfxBegin: Enemies/AlienBugs/AlienBug04/AlienBug04_SfxAttack Buff: "DermalParasite,InfectedWound" Buff_chance: "0.45,0.3" } } { +Item Id: 525, Name: MeleeSpider01, Ref: MeleeTemplate HoldType: 20 { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 0, type: float Range: 2.5 Damage: 20 Sphere: 0.05 SfxBegin: Enemies/Spiders/Spiders_SfxAttack Buff: "PoisonBit,Stunned" Buff_chance: "0.05,0.015" DamageMultiplier_1: 5, param1: metal|metalhard DamageMultiplier_2: 10, param1: hull|hullarmored|hullcombat|concrete|woodblock } } { +Item Id: 526, Name: MeleeSpider02, Ref: MeleeTemplate HoldType: 20 { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 0, type: float Range: 3.5 Damage: 120 SfxBegin: Enemies/CaveWorm/CritterSFX-Short_3 Buff: "PoisonBit,Stunned" Buff_chance: "0.08,0.02" } } { +Item Id: 527, Name: MeleeSpider03, Ref: MeleeTemplate HoldType: 20 { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 0, type: float Range: 3.5 Damage: 180 SfxBegin: Enemies/CaveWorm/CritterSFX-Short_3 Buff: "PoisonBit,Stunned" Buff_chance: "0.1,0.04" DamageMultiplier_1: 2.5, param1: metal|metalhard DamageMultiplier_2: 5, param1: hull|hullarmored|hullcombat|concrete|woodblock } } { +Item Id: 528, Name: MeleeRaptor, Ref: MeleeTemplate HoldType: 20 { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 0, type: float Range: 3.0 Damage: 50 SfxBegin: Enemies/Raptor/Raptor_SfxAttack Buff: "OpenWound,FractureOpen" Buff_chance: "0.2,0.02" } } { +Item Id: 529, Name: MeleeHexapod, Ref: MeleeTemplate { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 2, type: float Range: 3.5 Damage: 100 SfxBegin: Enemies/Hexapod/Hexapod_SfxAttack Buff: "DermalParasite,EndoParasite,AlienParasite" Buff_chance: "0.3,0.15,0.05" } } { +Item Id: 530, Name: MeleeOverseer, Ref: MeleeTemplate HoldType: 20 { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 2, type: float Range: 5.5 Damage: 120 SfxBegin: Enemies/Overseer/Overseer_SfxAttack Buff: "IncreaseRadiation,EndoParasite,AlienParasite" Buff_chance: "0.3,0.15,0.05" } } { +Item Id: 531, Name: MeleeOviraptor, Ref: MeleeTemplate HoldType: 20 { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 0, type: float Range: 3.5 Damage: 100 SfxBegin: Enemies/Oviraptor/Oviraptor_SfxAttack Buff: OpenWound Buff_chance: 0.1 } } { +Item Id: 532, Name: MeleeParasaur, Ref: MeleeTemplate { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 2, type: float Range: 6.5 Damage: 100 SfxBegin: Enemies/Parasaur/Parasaur_SfxAttack Buff: OpenWound Buff_chance: 0.1 } } { +Item Id: 533, Name: MeleeCaveWorm, Ref: MeleeTemplate HoldType: 20 { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 2, type: float Range: 3.5 Damage: 100 SfxBegin: Enemies/CaveWorm/CritterSFX-Short_3 Buff: "PoisonBit,OpenWound,DermalParasite" Buff_chance: "0.2,0.15,0.02" DamageMultiplier_1: 2.5, param1: metal|metalhard DamageMultiplier_2: 5, param1: hull|hullarmored|hullcombat|concrete|woodblock } } { +Item Id: 534, Name: MeleeSpider01Small, Ref: MeleeTemplate HoldType: 20 { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 0, type: float Range: 2.5 Damage: 10 Sphere: 0.05 SfxBegin: Enemies/Spiders/Spiders_SfxAttack Buff: "PoisonBit,Stunned" Buff_chance: "0.05,0.015" DamageMultiplier_1: 5, param1: metal|metalhard DamageMultiplier_2: 10, param1: hull|hullarmored|hullcombat|concrete|woodblock } } { +Item Id: 535, Name: MeleeAssassin, Ref: MeleeTemplate HoldType: 20 { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 2, type: float Range: 2.5 Damage: 100 SfxBegin: Enemies/Hexapod/Hexapod_SfxAttack Buff: "DermalParasite,EndoParasite,AlienParasite" Buff_chance: "0.3,0.15,0.05" } } { +Item Id: 536, Name: MeleeRaptorNight, Ref: MeleeTemplate HoldType: 20 { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 0, type: float Range: 2.0 Damage: 100 SfxBegin: Enemies/Raptor/Raptor_SfxAttack Buff: "OpenWound,FractureOpen" Buff_chance: "0.2,0.02" } } { +Item Id: 537, Name: MeleeTelluropod, Ref: MeleeTemplate HoldType: 20 { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 0, type: float Range: 3.5 Damage: 100 SfxBegin: Enemies/LizardMule/LizardMule_SfxAttack Buff: OpenWound Buff_chance: 0.2 } } { +Item Id: 538, Name: MeleePangolin, Ref: MeleeTemplate HoldType: 20 { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 0, type: float Range: 3.8 Damage: 200 SfxBegin: Enemies/Triceratops/Triceratops_SfxAttack Buff: "OpenWound,FractureClosed,FractureOpen,Mutilation" Buff_chance: "0.4,0.25,0.1,0.01" DamageMultiplier_1: 2.5, param1: metal|metalhard DamageMultiplier_2: 5, param1: hull|hullarmored|hullcombat|concrete|woodblock } } { +Item Id: 539, Name: MeleeRipperDog, Ref: MeleeTemplate HoldType: 20 { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 0, type: float Range: 3 Damage: 150 SfxBegin: Enemies/Worm/MonsterScreams-16 Buff: "FractureOpen" Buff_chance: "0.4" } } { +Item Id: 540, Name: MeleeCreepy, Ref: MeleeTemplate HoldType: 20 { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 0, type: float Range: 1.8 Damage: 50 SfxBegin: Enemies/CaveWorm/CritterSFX-Short_3 Buff: "FractureOpen" Buff_chance: "0.4,0.15" } } { +Item Id: 541, Name: MeleeShell, Ref: MeleeTemplate HoldType: 20 { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 0, type: float Range: 2.3 Damage: 50 SfxBegin: Enemies/CaveWorm/CritterSFX-Short_3 Buff: "FractureOpen" Buff_chance: "0.4,0.15" } } { +Item Id: 542, Name: MeleeSpider01Baby, Ref: MeleeTemplate HoldType: 20 { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 0, type: float Range: 2 Damage: 5 Sphere: 0.05 SfxBegin: Enemies/Spiders/Spiders_SfxAttack # Buff: "PoisonBit,Stunned" # Buff_chance: "0.05,0.015" #DamageMultiplier_1: 5, param1: metal|metalhard #DamageMultiplier_2: 10, param1: hull|hullarmored|hullcombat|concrete|woodblock } } { +Item Id: 543, Name: MeleeSpider02Small, Ref: MeleeTemplate HoldType: 20 { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 0, type: float Range: 2 Damage: 60 SfxBegin: Enemies/CaveWorm/CritterSFX-Short_3 Buff: "PoisonBit,Stunned" Buff_chance: "0.08,0.02" } } { +Item Id: 544, Name: MeleeSpider02Baby, Ref: MeleeTemplate HoldType: 20 { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 0, type: float Range: 2 Damage: 30 SfxBegin: Enemies/CaveWorm/CritterSFX-Short_3 Buff: "PoisonBit,Stunned" # Buff_chance: "0.08,0.02" } } { +Item Id: 545, Name: MeleeSpider03Small, Ref: MeleeTemplate HoldType: 20 { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 0, type: float Range: 2 Damage: 90 SfxBegin: Enemies/CaveWorm/CritterSFX-Short_3 Buff: "PoisonBit,Stunned" Buff_chance: "0.1,0.04" DamageMultiplier_1: 2.5, param1: metal|metalhard DamageMultiplier_2: 5, param1: hull|hullarmored|hullcombat|concrete|woodblock } } { +Item Id: 546, Name: MeleeSpider03Baby, Ref: MeleeTemplate HoldType: 20 { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 0, type: float Range: 2 Damage: 45 SfxBegin: Enemies/CaveWorm/CritterSFX-Short_3 Buff: "PoisonBit,Stunned" # Buff_chance: "0.1,0.04" #DamageMultiplier_1: 2.5, param1: metal|metalhard -DamageMultiplier_2: 5, param1: hull|hullarmored|hullcombat|concrete|woodblock } } { +Item Id: 547, Name: MeleeAlienBug02Small, Ref: MeleeTemplate HoldType: 20 { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 0, type: float Range: 2 Damage: 60 SfxBegin: Enemies/AlienBugs/AlienBug02/AlienBug02_SfxAttack Buff: "DermalParasite,InfectedWound" Buff_chance: "0.3,0.15" } } { +Item Id: 548, Name: MeleeAlienBug02Baby, Ref: MeleeTemplate HoldType: 20 { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 0, type: float Range: 2 Damage: 30 SfxBegin: Enemies/AlienBugs/AlienBug02/AlienBug02_SfxAttack # Buff: "DermalParasite,InfectedWound" # Buff_chance: "0.3,0.15" } } { +Item Id: 549, Name: MeleeHunter, Ref: MeleeTemplate HoldType: 20 { Child 0 Class: Melee ROF: 0, type: float Range: 3.0 Damage: 5000 SfxBegin: Enemies/Raptor/Raptor_SfxAttack Buff: "OpenWound,FractureOpen" Buff_chance: "0.5,0.2" } } Just take a look at the range stat and you should be able to spot the issue. A good rule of thumb for any unarmed roughly human shaped bipad creature is about one half their height. In the case of the Horror, their range is set to 3.5, so almost two times their height. Setting it to something like 1 to 2 meters (they got long arms) would be much more reasonable. === Edit === That config is from the default game. I haven't check the RE config files but I would think they have the same problem.
The range isn't the issue here. Range is still an issue, but not the issue Scoob is talking about. You can still be outside that ridiculous range by the time the attack should land and still get hit. The hit detection for melee attacks itself is extremely broken. Sadly, I feel the only thing the devs would do to fix the broken melee hit detection IS to reduce the range. Which in essence would be like slapping a bandaid on an already broken and leaking bandaid. It's not going to fix the core issue(s) here. But yes, the ranges do need fixing as well, it's just not the only issue, and won't fix the broken hit detection method being used.
This is me, every time I get killed on the Ilmarinen or in the Abandoned Bunker. The abominations seem to rush you more often in those places than in some others, and the clipping thing ALWAYS happens.
While it's nice to see the numbers, thanks @Inappropriate for that, it is indeed not the entirety of the issue. We can to a degree adapt to the fact that a critter has a far longer reach than visually apparent, though sometimes being unfairly hit might be unavoidable - inside a POI in particular. However, when an attack is successfully dodged, yet it still counts as a hit, that's a little trickier. Reducing those attack ranges would help I feel, especially considering how melee critters seems to be programmed to get literally right in your face, their attack ability would not be nerfed in any way, just made a bit more fair. I do wonder how the whole animation / attack relationship works. I'd assume the critter gets close, decides to attack, animation plays and, at the end of the animation, a Melee "shot" is fired. Are melee attacks just very short-range hit-scan "bullets"? Don't know. Are they non hit-scan bullets that fire when the animation starts? Don't know that either lol. What's the cone of effect of a Melee attack? Well, it's certainly not simply the arc of the attackers claw / bite animation, that's for sure. Regardless, something is wonky with Melee attacks. This is an important gameplay consideration of course, as FPS-style combat can be a very large part of the game, if people choose to play that way, so it needs to work well, with consistency and fairness between NPC's, Critters and the Player. I'd quite like to see primitive and more advanced Melee weapon options for the player, if such things could be made to work well - gimme those clubs and laser swords! Note: I feel that the importance of getting combat right has gone up over subsequent game updates. There was a time, a while back now, when the player could be largely a pacifist, mining the materials needed for their building goals. POI raids were much more optional. Now, there are things we can only realistically gain from POI's - or playing shopping simulator at trading stations lol - so, that POI raiding combat needs to be solid. Thanks for the replies guys, it's nice to hear that others seem to have similar thoughts to myself on this. @Arthmoor - I've had a number of instances where I've been raining down fire on several critters with high-end, late-game weaponry and they've just walked through me to attack...I find that somewhat irksome! I jumped in my SV to escape a Nightmare earlier, only to have them walk through the cockpit so their head was in my lap...now that was disconcerting! The key take-away here is that the issues with Melee combat - but not wholly restricted to melee of course - can really ruin an otherwise fun POI raid or other combat. I'm not the best at FPS-style gameplay, so play very tactically. Having those, on paper at least, smart tactics totally countered by wonky combat is something I find exceedingly frustrating. Scoob.
The way the problem has been described by many players for years, I tend to believe the attack is not "segmented" and that the "hit" is decided first, then everything else cascades in (animation, player's sound "ouch" etc). If the critter is not in range, why would he attack ? If we assume the combat AI is still pretty rudimentary for critters, most probably the script follows something like : -pursue player until X range (hit range) -when X range reached, trigger attack So when "attack" is triggered, it's because it can touch the player, based on the "simulation loop" (the physics engine calculations based on colliders relative positions). So even if the player moves away, and sees the animation playing from a greater range, the damage has already been attributed (and player "ouch" response) because the render loop (seeing the actual attack) always comes after the physics has made the decision. One way to alleviate this could be to have a timer, so if player is not within the melee attack's max range for one whole second (60 physics ticks, and that's quite long) then attack only triggers animation but not the damage + player "ouch" part. A more sophisticated critter AI could simply delay the "attribute damage" after the attack animation has played, or somewhere just before the end of the animation, if player is still in max melee range. So the attack animation is first triggered when X range is reached, and if player is still within X range (even if he got further at some point) when the "damage" check is done then the consequences are triggered (dmg + player sound + effects). These attack animations are pretty short, but in terms of physics checks speed there is more than enough room for a "late damage check". At a low framerate of 30 or even 20 frames per seconds, half a second means the damage check can wait for 10 or 15 frames to be performed, which would still allow the animation to play but gives a chance for player to move out of range.
@Scoob - As usual, you have accurately describe what I have experienced without being able to express it so accurately. It seems to me since 1.5 the Melee attacks are a bit worse, but that may just be perception. I'm currently playing Solo on an Artic planet with .5G in light armor, Epic shotgun and a fair skill level with it, but when they get in your face it's like you're shooting past them and, as you point out, jumping over them often doesn't help which is ridiculous!! I too am not a big FPS person, but I'm pretty damn good with a shotgun and a sniper rifle. Doesn't matter sometimes, the critters just ignore physics.
@Kassonnade - It would be nice to hear the devs thoughts on this subject, Do they feel the current melee combat, and combat in general, is where they'd like it to be? Are there shortcuts and placeholders in place currently that they plan to revisit and replace with a more robust solution? I feel that the current system was workable during the early-access phase of the game, I can overlook a lot in early-access, but is starting to feel decidedly sub-par for a full release title that Empyrion now reports to be. I fully acknowledge that the devs have continue to work on the game, it's not like they've gotten to release status and stopped work, far from it. It's this, in part, that makes me consider it very worth-while reporting the, let's call them quirks, of Melee combat in particular in the hope that the devs will agree that it's an area that needs work and is perhaps already on their list. It is frustrating to develop a degree of skill in a game and have it count to nothing due to quirks. I play very much with the "don't get hit" mentality, preferring to be wearing Light Amour with some mobility boosts. The thing is, a "fake" hit can be quite devastating to such a build due to damage taken, plus of course any effects that slow the player or nerf stamina totally negate my character loadout. Fine if I screw up and take a genuine hit, but frustrating when that's not the case. @Thor'sHammer - I confess I do get sufficiently frustrated that I just have to step away from the game for a bit at times. You pull off a cool move, dodging a dangerous enemy and the game's like "Hey, you moved! No fair! I'm classing that as a hit anyway. So there!" Lol. While ranged combat isn't perfect, insta-aiming ZIrax are a problem, plus they lack certain animations corresponding to their aim at times, which doesn't help. I do feel that it's melee attackers that are most problematic. Thanks for the continued replies guys. Scoob.
I'm sure a great number of players would appreciate. Well all the NPC/ Player character "animation" aspect is problematic. Some basic things like player "skating" on the ground at wrong speed or no sync between events and animations (zirax shoots while animation shows something else) have been mentioned for a long time, and the developers are pretty much silent on these, like they're trying to avoid the subject altogether. "Crouch and prone" was part of the 2018 survey and got an average score in its category, but looking at the surveys we can see there are plenty of other things the developers can decide to focus on legitimately (!) to justify not having time for now to work on animations. When getting rid of the Early Access tag they mentioned that "all the core features and game functions are done now" or something along these lines, but when looking at both the 2016 and 2018 surveys we can see many things did not make it in the game, and having an update on this would also help clarifying things, since they want to keep the 2020 survey for "internal reference" as they mentioned recently. Just for the record, here are the links to the 2016 and 2018 surveys results : 2016: https://empyriononline.com/threads/results-of-survey.7525/ 2018: https://empyriononline.com/threads/feature-survey-2018-results.35530/ So what are these surveys' worth when we know that "walking on a moving ship" is one of the most desired features, yet will be virtually impossible to make without some major overhaul of colliders and physics systems ? But "animations" is not a similar problem, the game already supports them, it just requires... work.
Having just fired up this game for the first time in weeks on a swamp start - almost immediate death to melee attacks I thought I had easily avoided - ho hum, so interesting reading the comments of those who have given it some thought. I have always had problem with them and never really gave them much thought about how broken the actual mechanics may be, but next to other issues, I cant say I am even slightly surprised, nor do I hold any hope whatsoever that these kind of things will get looked at. Re presented solutions/hacks - I aprecite the attempt to suggest something simple that may be possible, but yet another hack? Not sure. Can unit raise events at the appropriate tick/frame in an animation, or can the actual hit detection not simply be done at the visual point of impact by delayed the test by the right number of animation frames? It doesnt seem like it would be that hard, but then neither is f=ma and look what a mess that seems to have been turned into... I think that 'all the core features and game functions are done now' pretty much covers it... Keep a sick bag handy
In fact it would not be a "hack" but a simple adjustment of the "attack" development. I believe they try to keep it as simple as possible for performance's sake, but the consequence is bad visual feedback of what's happening (via the actual animations being out of sync) to the players. If they made it too simple, like I just mentioned above, then that's a one-size-fits-all solution, and obviously all different critters have different pursuit/attack animations, so this unique way of deciding how attack animations are played consequently to a unique "hit" check can't fit all the different attacks. For example, if the spiders stop their advance when the "raise front limbs and lunge" animation plays it's not logical to attribute success to this attack if the player has already moved away during the animation, even though the physics engine decided that since range was reached, it's a "successful attack". But I'm only speculating here, I have no clue how things run under the hood for this. The reason why I suppose animations play out of sync of the physics detection is because that is what is obvious to players, being hit out of range. The detection should indeed be done at the precise frame of the "attack/ lunge/ hit" animation where the limbs are fully extended, so this means at a different frame for each critter depending on specifics of animations. Horrors raise their arms before throwing them forward, so it's not going to be the same frame as the small bugs which quickly rais front limbs and lunge. No need to make the check at any other time (apart from triggering the attack animation) when in range, independantly from the damage attribution. Critters have to miss their hits when player is out of range, so the detection check has to be fine tuned to the visual position of limbs in the animation, not to a simple colliders positioning. The physics engine runs on a fixed and regular update 60 times per second (may be less), but the "render" loop works differently, as it depends on hardware for rendering. Top PCs that run at 120 fps obviously see 2 frames while the physics engine counts 1, and on the lower end PCs at 30 fps the player sees 1 frame for 2 physics updates. This means that the detection has to occur on a % value of the animation and not a precise frame number, for all systems to display the same event on whatever system it is run. It's actually easier to adjust these things on a slower PC because the machine will slow down everything and problems can be pinpointed this way. If there is no problem with detection but it's rather some script that is losing time waiting for an answer from the physics loop or some other script (was there a hit) to trigger the player's side of the event (blood on screen, "ouch" sound, adjustment to health and other values) then these are maybe easier to see at a lower fps rate. While at 90 or 120 fps a few wasted frames are not perceptible, at 30 fps things become more apparent if out of sync. Developers typically work with top end machines, and they might just not see similar problems as most players can experience with less performant PCs. This is quite common in many games, where a crowd of NPC causes most player's machines to slow down noticeably, but the developers don't see that when testing their work.
They need to do something to address these issues as they've been plaguing the game for far too long now. I like some of the harder POI's added by scenarios such as Reforged Eden, they offer much more challenging gameplay. However, time and time again, it's NOT the clever POI design or increased spawns that causes me problems, rather it's the issues with NPC's. For example, I got rushed by a group of Horrors - melee attackers - in a narrow corridor. In theory this should be fairly easy to deal with as they'd have to queue up to attack me, right? Nope! They all rush me, clip through each other, so several can melee attack me at once. Not fun. The major clipping issues continue when it comes to large enemies, such as overseerers, easily passing through narrow doors and passageways. You find a location that should give a tactical advantage, yet the enemy will just clip through blocks. Not fun. Having other enemies run right through me to attack from behind is a pain also, why don't we / NPC's bounding boxes prevent this? Clipping issues go the other way too quite often. For example, from a good vantage point I shoot at an enemy, yet my shots repeatedly hit the block I'm shoot around, yet I have 100% clear LoS. This gets insulting when my enemy is a ranged attacker and is able to hit my just fine. Crouch and lean would be great additions to the game, once these other issues are addressed. This is turning fun challenges into frustrating ones for me as it's often totally out of my control whether I'll be hit or not. I'm at a stage in my current game where I'm taking on harder and harder POI's for the loot, but am getting constantly thwarted by unfinished core game mechanics. I tried to focus on Melee attackers in this post, as they're often the most troublesome, but other attackers can cause issues too. Scoob.
And some objects fall through terrain too, and we can't have simple physics (throwing a hand grenade, dropping an object) in any type of grid (ship, base or voxel terrain). But I do believe they are trying hard to solve some of these, as can be seen in the new default game start : some items are resting on the ground right next to the escape pod. That was not possible before, and tells me they are trying to solve parts of this complex issue. I can guess that range attacks problems you mention may be caused by enemy's weapons not having collision with blocks enabled (to avoid NPCs getting stuck in doorways because rifle is blocking them even if NPC small enough to pass) but the weapons shoot from their tip, so even if the weapon appears inside a block the projectile will still be emitted from the tip which can be just outside the block, or even inside (because colliders are only 1 sided = they block everything "outside" but not inside them). Unfair but follows the game engine's logic.
Yes, there certainly have been improvements. I recall when spawning in things like the damage SV or Hoverbike - which are part of the plot now - wouldn't have worked, but that seems pretty solid now. No bouncing around or other weirdness for the most part as the player approaches. Plus, as you say, items simply being on the ground more recently. That all makes sense and matches observations perfectly, I do get why things are how they are. It's just that it's not really good enough and does cause frustration. Much of the game is pretty solid, and I've certainly had my monies worth from the whopping £7.50 the game cost me. I think that other parts are working pretty well, just makes certain weaknesses stand out that little bit more. The game has become more combat-oriented over time, so these issues are up front and centre in the player's experience. I recall a time, in a much older version of the game, where I never had to venture into a POI until I was ready, I could mine and build anything I wanted. Now, to progress we're obliged to raid POI's to gain otherwise unobtainable materials - until we can warp to other systems - so pretty much everyone has to engage in combat at some point if they want to progress. It's this point of the game where I know I need to POI raid to progress that I'll often get stuck on. I like combat, even if my skills are average at best, but I do get frustrated with it. I would like to know if /when Eleon plan to spend some focused time on polishing on-foot combat in general, I'm sure it's a significant amount of work for them, but important. Scoob.
That's why I feel no shame - AT ALL - to use "cheat" weapons and mod stuff : if I want a fun and engaging 1st / 3rd person shooter experience, I use at least 2 insane guns (ex. modded laser pistol and sniper) and similar armor, or I just play something else. And I'm sure many other players do the same. After playing top-of-the-class games for so many years, what's the point to force it in Empyrion if it's a chore ? Until things get better, of course...
I admit, I've had so many issues recently while raiding harder POI's that I use the console as needed. If I take damage / get an infection where I absolutely should not have - like sat in my *enclosed* cockpit as a critter clips through the entire HV to reach me - I'll use any free meds I need from the itemmenu. Same for randomly getting stuck on terrain / block, godmode to unclip myself. I don't like using the console, but I'm very glad it's there. I'll also take regular backup saves and revert to those if I need to, i.e. something's gone catastrophically wrong. I really hate having to do this, but if I didn't I'd simply stop playing. I really feel for people on Multi-Player servers - something I'd love to do - but the game would get frustrating when things went wrong with n easy work-around. I used to actually play on my own MP Server all the time, but the various frustrations were far easier to work-around in a Single Player world. Scoob.
Agree - I dont find this game playable really without admin commands as there are far too many frustrating issues still after all this time. Even when I have been able to round up some friends to play it in MP - we end up giving everyone admin access and so of course restricting it to trusted friends. As they dont really have the patience for the issues nor are as familiar with the game, then these days persuading anyone I know to play is pretty much impossible anyway which makes that moot. And yet, they will play SE in co-op with its issues and lack of things to do...
It's not just melee attackers that do this. I've had Zirax Commanders with miniguns clip their miniguns through walls and hit me plenty of times. I think a fix for that was implemented a while ago, but I honestly don't recall.
It has been marked as "fixed" at least a half dozen times now (maybe more). It has never been truly fixed though.
I suspect the heart of the issue lies in the heart of the machine - aka, this is a Unity issue more than anything else, much in the same way you can place objects next to one side of a half-dimension block, but not the other, since it still considers the "empty space" to be part of a whole block.
