In-game issues that shouldn't be possible...in theory.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Scoob, Sep 25, 2021.

  1. Scoob

    Scoob Rear Admiral

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    Hey all,

    Just thought I'd make a list of some of the random weirdness I've experienced lately in the game. Some of these issues are particularly odd as, looking at stats / game data, they appear impossible, yet still occur on a semi-regular basis. Note that I generally play the Reforged Eden Scenario, but these issues will often occur in vanilla games too, though I have less hours in vanilla lately.

    1. Being shot at by NPC's that are not rendered in.

      When travelling on foot or in an HV (cockpit view), I'm often shot at by troops that are not rendered in. I can see their shots - laser Zirax - but not them. It's easy to spot the source location of the shots from the bright green laser glow, but the Troop isn't rendered. Basically, this is particularly odd as the render distance for troops as far as I'm aware is further than their max possible range, so if they can shoot me, they should always be rendered in.


    2. Sometimes I take excessive damage from ranged attacks, far beyond what the weapons used should do.

      A Zirax Laser troop shot at me in an HV. Just two shots exploded the previously full-health cockpit of the HV. Other times however, the HV cockpit can easily take many hits before it dies. There was nothing explosive near the cockpit, so no chain reaction from a lucky hit on a reactor or fuel tank for example. The HV just took massively greater damage than is usual.


    3. Being sniped out of the cockpit.

      Perhaps linked to example 2 above. Sometimes I'm in an intact, albeit with some damage, cockpit when I'm killed outright, one-shotted while at full health sat in an enclosed cockpit. The cockpit and the rest of the vessel survive my death initially, but might later be destroyed. Quite a rare occurrence to be fair, but irksome when it happens. I assumed, likely incorrectly, that the player stopped being an entity that can be hit when in an enclosed cockpit, but perhaps we are still a hitable object and sometimes a shot will pass through the cockpit and hit us directly.


    4. POI's firing beyond the range they're supposed to.

      It's been explained to me that there's a hard-coded limit regarding the distance at which a POI in atmosphere can fire. This is 300 metres. Reforged Eden carefully balances weapons with this in mind so the player cannot simply exploit this with longer-ranged weapons. In essence the POI can always fire sooner. However, I'm regularly getting shot at from well beyond this 300m hard limit. I've posted screenshot evidence of this happening as proof. So, a hard limit is somehow being exceeded by the game at times, upsetting careful balance choices.

      Note: I'm aware that camera perspective could be a factor here *. For example: if my external camera viewpoint is further away from the target than the actual vessel I'm in is, then the distance indicated would be larger. However, I've done testing directly from the cockpit view - front of the ship, nearest the target - so that isn't a factor in this, or the Troop render issue. Note: I'm slowly creeping up on the target to test this and note the distance the moment it starts shooting.


    5. Turret delays shooting and stopping shooting.

      Turrets, fickle things aren't they? They can be super hesitant to start shooting and just as bad switching to the next target. However, they'll also often keep shooting at a target that is no more. For example, turrets set to attack turrets on a POI. They'll eventually start shooting, the currently targeted Turret will go pop and they'll keep firing at that spot wasting ammo for several seconds. There will then be another several second delay before they move to the next closest viable target.

      While I of course don't know how turret AI is coded, I suspect there's some sort of CPU-saving stuff at play here, leading to the long delays. The ability of a turret to engage and switch targets seems to wane the longer I play. I.e. I've been playing for an hour or so and the turrets on my CV become really lethargic, failing to engage anything promptly. I save then reload and they're much improved...for a short while. This is weird because turrets can react reasonably quickly - though they're never great - they just become more inconsistent over time.

      When engaging a POI in a CV - or "tank" HV - it's sadly normal to be taking fire for ten seconds or more before my own turrets wake up. The same delay can often be observed when switching targets. Sure, POI's can sometimes suffer from the same delay, but it happens much more for the Player, giving potentially quite a severe disadvantage.

      Observation: I wonder if the number of valid targets available to a turret impacts the time it takes to engage at all? I've had what seems to be a generally better turret response - when it comes to starting to shoot at least - lately when I reduce the number of targets a given turret can shoot. I.e. I'll have several turret just for Drones (Miniguns) and several just for Troops (Sentries) etc. It seems, though I've not done that much testing, that setting turrets up in this way sees them engage their specific targets more quickly. They still get sluggish over time, but Drone-specific turrets certainly seem more responsive, less so turrets set to engage BA/CV Turrets though.


    6. There's something screwy about NPC spawning.

      This is a fairly new one for me, but sometimes the spawning of NPC's and Critters goes a bit nuts. I'm not talking in POI's specifically, but everywhere. I'm often getting instances where I'm wandering around outside when NPC's spawn right on top of me. For example, I cleared the (oddly) Zirax Troops near a CV (actually a BA) wreck in Talon territory. Unexpected to see them there, but I took them all out - a couple of Zirax Troops and a load of Ripper Dogs.

      I'm salvaging parts of the wreck from the outside when suddenly two Zirax Laser Troops and five Ripper Dogs pop in right on top of me. My understanding was that things should never spawn in right on top of the player, but rather just out side their view, no sudden pop-in as NPC's and Critters appear.

      This effect can be massively exaggerated where additional NPC spawns have been added in. For example, one of the Reforged Eden game starts has you escaping a crashed prison ship on a dark, dead planet - a personal favourite of mine and very well done. Once escaping the ship, there are a lot of Zirax troops and ripper dogs patrolling. However, the spawning issue totally breaks things as fresh troops and Ripper dogs are constantly spawning right on top of the player, making it impossible to proceed. I did a lot of testing on this utilising God Mode so I'd not die. I'd literally see additional NPC's appearing right on to of me every 30 seconds or so without fail. Which isn't supposed to be possible and totally broke this starting scenario for me sadly.


    7. Sound not being directional.

      For so many years now directional sound has been a thing in games. Even with basic stereo speakers or headphones many games are able to accurately convince me that something is going on to the left, right, in front, behind, above or below me. This is great. Empyrion however simply does not. I have no clue what direction a certain sound is coming from pretty much all of the time. I fall foul of attacks so often simply because I'm totally accustomed to sound being a major cue to what's going on. Empyrion sadly will often simply play the sounds from totally the wrong direction. Oh, I hear firing from in front on me, yet I'm being shot from behind. I actually did a lot of testing on this ages ago and discovered that sound effects were regularly sourced from wherever the Core was located, not the device making the noise. Very obvious on POI's where turret firing noises would all come from one location, where the Core is. I'd hear it on my own CV's too, where my turret sounds would come from the Core.

      I don't quite understand what's going on here, is it a Unity issue? I know plenty of others experience this too, so I assume it's a Game / Engine thing and not a PC config thing. When out in the open - i.e. not in a POI or my own Base / CV etc. - I don't notice the sound direction being so obviously wrong, but then it's much more visual experience in such location for me, so I'm not really actively listening out for audio cues as much.

    * This actually raises an interesting point. Using the external camera view is often near essential for getting a good view of what's going on - FoV in-cockpit seems too narrow even on highest setting. I.e. the "chase" (fixed) view when in an HV or SV. In this view the player's perspective is from behind their ship, so things that the player might be able to see from inside the cockpit are not in render distance from their view behind the ship. This is NOT what I'm referring to in points 1 and 4 though. However, I do wonder if this might have an effect on Turrets firing ability? I.e. I'm in an external view above and behind my large CV - a good 100+ metres away. I can see that my CV is being shot at by lots of unrendered ground troops - I can see their fire but not them. My CV is NOT returning fire. I scroll in my viewpoint and the troops become rendered and my turrets start firing. Normal turret delay and my timing of zooming in just a coincidence, or something else?

    I know this is a long post, it's not intended in any way to be a dig at the devs or anything like that. It's just me sharing things that happen regularly which seem contrary / inconsistent with how things should be working. There are other niggles that doubtless others experience on a regular basis too - I could expand this list - but these are ones that have been particularly apparent to me during recent play-sessions.

    I'd be interested to hear if others notice these issues as frequently as I do. The game can be challenging at times, but when the "challenge" is linked to one of the above is can become more a frustration than a challenge. Luckily the death penalty in-game is still near non-existent, which is a relief.

    Scoob.
     
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  2. imlarry425

    imlarry425 Captain

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    Yes on experiencing and knitting my eyebrows on 1, 3, 5, 6, & 7 ... #1 actually can makes sense if intentional (snippers- they see you, you don't see them) as does #6 if intentional (a thin plate spawner that was signal triggered by a motion sensor set to cover one block in a hallway would do that)

    I've hade #3 happen while in the cockpit of an SV with shields at full ... guessing it's because the players hit box extends outside the cockpit (just like our legs used to, Fred Flintstone style)

    #5 ... several times realized it wasn't firing and took my SV right next to it to empty a Gatling gun to blow 'em up in case they ever decided to wake up. Point blank, no response.

    #7 ... drives. me. nuts. 8^)
     
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  3. Scoob

    Scoob Rear Admiral

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    Thanks for the response @imlarry425 - appreciate you taking the time to confirm my frustrations aren't just me lol.

    A "hidden" - aka stealth mechanic - Sniper Zirax would indeed make perfect sense and be a great feature, if the player could do it too. However, in this case sadly, seems to be a glitch as the range of the Laser Zirax is less than the render distance. It's an odd one though as sometimes I'll see the Zirax pop in, be able to fire and kill it, all before it shoots me. Other times I'm following the green blobs to move closer before it renders. It makes a mockery of the Gatlings on my current SV's 206 metre range that Zirax troops often aren't rendered until ~100m at times. Could it be some performance-saving thing, trying to reduce rendered objects?

    Regarding #6, you're right re: POI's with hidden spawners combined with motion sensors. It's a bit of a di..., erm surprise move by the POI designer when the enemy spawns in behind the player. Not a huge fan of magically popping-in enemies in POI's, but that's besides the point. Spawn locations outside however, popping out a new NPC ever 30 seconds or so isn't so great lol.

    Yes, re: #3, I too have been sniped while protected by intact shields. Good point re: player's hitbox potentially clipping outside the hitbox of the Cockpit block slightly. My HV's and SV tend to feature the Cockpit right at the front of the vessel, often with the underside of the cockpit exposed for ease of access. Perhaps direction of fire plays a part here? I.e. firing coming in from a certain angle has a chance of clipping said player hitbox, causing direct damage / death. Maybe my feet are - hitbox-wise - poking out the bottom of said cockpit? I had assumed that the player stopped being a distinct object when in an enclosed cockpit, but perhaps they're treated the same as in an open cockpit.

    #5 has been around so long now. I've tried to capture such instances via a save but it simply doesn't work. I.e. I've been playing an hour or so and my turrets simply do not engage. I save the game, but the actual game-state - i.e. non-functional turrets - isn't saved and they're working perfectly upon reload. Something is going on in the code that causes this over-time degradation in turret performance. Interestingly, for me at least, general game performance drops over time too. However, a quick save / reload cycle sees it running just fine again, with zero evidence (in the save) of something going wrong.

    Yeah, #7 drives me nuts too. It's amazing how much I rely on audio cues when playing games, Empyrion's lack of proper directional sound messes with me big time.

    Scoob.
     
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  4. imlarry425

    imlarry425 Captain

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    re: #6 ... OTOH it is totally in line with the literary tradition of the jump scare in a horror movie and works *really* well with abominations.
    Having a shrieking lady with ventri dentata appear behind you really takes adrenaline up to the next level. 8^)
     
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  5. Scoob

    Scoob Rear Admiral

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    Heh, very true. Combined with directional sound not working can lead to real panic as the direction the sound came from isn't the direction the critter is gonna get you from lol.

    Scoob.
     
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  6. stanley bourdon

    stanley bourdon Captain

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    It is for sure an adrenalin boost, but I would not call it good game play.
     
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  7. bluemax151

    bluemax151 Captain

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    1. is readily apparent if you ever hunt predators and golems in an SV. You're moving at such speed that they don't render fast enough. I tend to fly really low and below max speed so I can actually see them pop in. Otherwise half the time I miss or overshoot them. I assume it's less of an issue on foot or in an HV but the same applies. You're in render range but for some reason they aren't rendering fast enough. Too many objects? poor optimization? I sometimes see my CV turrets fire and then a Zirax corpse suddenly appears and falls down.

    3. Seems common with any AoE weapon. Zirax ground troops with missiles tend to hit you through the cockpit which has been an issue for a long time. imlarry425 pointed out a potential hit box issue which makes sense if explosive weapons are more often causing this. I'm assuming a shield doesn't work on this because it's not actually a bubble like in Star Trek/Star Wars but powered armor like in Macross. How does the game actually handle this? When blocks are hit it just subtracts shield HP until it reaches 0?
     
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  8. Scoob

    Scoob Rear Admiral

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    It would be good if critters and the like could pop in a little sooner than they do, that's for sure. I've often gone golem hunting and, like you, have to cruise at 50% speed to avoid over-shooting.

    Yeah, I think we "polarise the hull plating" when we enable shields, so any hit box issues are still exposed. I would like to see bubble shields that conform to the rough shape of the vessel, but suspect they'd be a lot of work.

    I don't know how shields work internally, I had proposed - ages ago now - that they work differently. I.e. they didn't just apply to all block uniformly. Rather things like Doors and turrets would not be directly shielded, allowing for the player to raid structures via blasting through doors and still be able to take out sentries, spawners and the like. I actually suggested separate shields that could protect nearby devices such as main turrets. I suspect options are a bit limited here though, but would like to see things evolve more.

    Scoob.
     
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  9. Needleship

    Needleship Master of Custom Terrain

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    @Scoob:

    #1
    Shooting range can be set in a config file, per-weapon, if I understand it correctly...
    Maybe the zirax laser weapon is set too long in reach? This is in Vanilla, too?
    (But in Config_Example.ecf, it seems to be set to 110m?)
    In RE... - - Perhaps the range of a handheld weapon got upped, since the player can use some Zirax weaponry? - - Which could then result in the Zirax being able to shoot with that stuff further, too...? :D


    #2
    Don't know, never happened to me. Could be just dumb luck -
    ....But, is that more tied to a certain kind of cockpit?
    (Then, mabye it could be a messed up/missing DamageMultiplier for a material of either the weapon or the cockpit...?)
    (Thinking of the time, when we could drill through Zirax POI walls with a shotgun - - Since the POI still used the old 'hull' blocks'? - -Those were days... :D)


    #3
    Hm. Bug? - - If that could be narrowed down, what this triggers..?
    (E.g. can you remember in which type of cockpits this does seem to happen? And only in damaged ones?
    Just guessing - - If the player still has a hitbox- - Perhaps the player still peeks out after certain cockpit gets a bit 'damage-scewed'?)


    #4
    Don't know of the hard limit...- - In 'atmo' playfields POIs -can- reach you much further?
    At least since worlds got bigger than the old 'small' (size class 2) planets?

    E.g. BarrenMetal had extra low atmo density, so that the rocket POI can have a further reach for protecting Zc, Er deposits.
    Plasma turrets had a very short range, though. With standard atmo density and Plasma, you usually ended up with about 200-300m range max...? And, if you have a playfield that has high variance in atmo densites set, you could get changing turret max reach for each new world? The better you see stars at day, the further all turrets go...



    #5 reads as if there would be a 'memory leak' somewhere...?
    (=Computer's memory gets used for some process, but not completely 'freed up' after use. Accumulating more and more junk, over time.)
    If so, that probably would be really hard to track down. - - Especially if you have to play long times for it to kick in. Since it's not directly'broken, but 'just' somehow messed up.


    From your experience - - Is there something that might make this lag happen sooner?
    (E.g. lots of playfield changes? Lots of turrets on that build? Visited a lot of POI?)


    #6 - Not sure, - - Could have been in the game since a long time?
    And this rogue playfield is an edge case that makes it obvious...?
    (Creature spawns can be tied by design to the vicinity of a POI, regardless of that POI's faction or other factions territory overlapping it. Maybe that was a crashed 'Zirax' ship, and these troops were the survivors...? :))

    Once made a world (years ago) with rather high re-spawn rates next to resources. IIRC then these creatures popped in, too.
    The creatures always have a fixed spot where they will show up and respawn. Don't know if the game checks for distance to player when the respawn time is reached. So in worst case, it may happen right in front of you, if you are close to their spot?


    If the respawn times got much shortened in that playfield, and the creatures have a high placement density (maybe due to it being 'ultra hard'), ... then the chance of 'direct respawn popup in front of you' might be much more increased...?
     
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  10. Vermillion

    Vermillion Rear Admiral

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    I've checked this and the range of the laser zirax's weapon in RE is 100m. Less than vanilla to accomodate the intervening space between enemy troop render distance (120m) and their ability to detect the player. Giving a 20m buffer safe zone to engage an enemy in the open at long range.
    He's also able to see their shots. All zirax hand weapons ignore atmo or else their tracers and muzzleflash don't render to the player (it's a problem with the render system. It may have been fixed in the last 2 years, but I haven't tested it.); which means they'd need to be within render distance to see the effect.
    Players do not get access to these zirax weapons. They get their own player-specific version.

    #2 Sounds like a bug. Even the regular HV cockpit has a minimum of 500hp and a hardness of 15; while the Laser zirax deals 65 damage per shot with a 5x damage modifier against small blocks. That's only 21.6 damage per shot to any SV block. Not even enough to break a steel block.

    #4 Atmospheric density of the planet reduces POI range. On moons and completely airless worlds, the POIs can fire at extremely long range.
    Note: Missile Turrets are still bound by maximum turret range; however a missile launched has a maximum travel distance that is longer than the turret's tracking range. So they can follow the player up to 1km.

    #6 I've seen playthroughs of people encountering the spawning issues on terrain. It seems to happen with long-travelling entity groups like the Ripperdog+Zirax squads. The ripperdogs run after the player and leave the zirax contingent to unload once the player moves out of render distance and when the ripperdog is killed, the unloaded parts of the squad respawn at the ripperdog's location. Such a problem would be a game issue; but i've also seen new groups spawn in the same way right on top of people.
     
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  11. Khazul

    Khazul Rear Admiral

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    AFAIK when seated in a cockpit or seat, you kind of cease to exist as a separate entity and instead become part of the seat or cockpit.

    What I suspect is actually happening is that when you become part of the seat/cockpit incoming damage is applied to the cockpit/seat AND to you your proxy entity. If you have less health than the cockpit/seat, your proxy dies (which ejects you and reactivates your player entity in dead state) while the cockpit/seat remains apparently intact.

    As for turret firing beyond their range, I suspect that targeting is done via two stages with the first being about the distance between the origins of the two involved structures. In a case where the origin blocks are in range, but a turret is not, then it does seem to engage beyond its range as firing control gets enabled on the turret even while it beyond range. I can see this being a more efficient way to do the in range entity list partitioning rather than always asking each turrets if anything is in range and LOS.

    What seems to be missing is the enabling of firing control needs to be a final decision with respect to the specific turret rather than the host entity (the turret still has final say via LoS, but not range it seems). Things like this tend to happen when pretty much industry standard code design principles go out of the window I guess...

    These are guess from piecing together observations and comments about how stuff apparently works in this. ('works' - well that debatable... ;))
     
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  12. imlarry425

    imlarry425 Captain

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    I'd agree, except there was a bug within the last year where your legs extended out the bottom of a cockpit SV and regardless the ship I was in at the time had a fully charged shield generator onboard. My understanding is that shields should prevent any/all block damage (including the cockpit) until they are exhausted and it never fell below 90%.

    The way things seem to move is that an entity (player, vehicle, etc.) has an x/y/z position and rotation, in the case to a cockpit or seat, that position is updated for a seated entity as the entity that seat is mounted in moves- this would be why getting out of a chair leaves you floating in space after passing through the walls of the moving vessel. For a cockpit I'd guess all they are doing is making you invisible if you sit down, but as you say- only one group of folks actually knows and they aren't telling! 8^)

    It would be funny if the act of sitting is what made you bound to the entity the seat was in more generally .. then you could use tables in the galley, a random bench, or a toilet as a passenger seat.
     
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  13. .TGHS. Gabriel

    .TGHS. Gabriel Ensign

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    I personally believe the cockpit bug is a good example of lazy code....
    The player entity object is indeed merged with the cockpit block and that allows for a headshot damage calculation depending on the RNG's result and even if I am not totally right in my opinion about how it is caused the fact remains that it doesn't occur in a CV with a huge glass window in front of the players :)
     
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  14. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    A "headshot" requires a "head" part on the model, which a "cockpit" doesn't have. If this was not the case then players could "headshot" enemies while shooting at their feet. RNG does not decide "this random shot at a random part of X target is a headshot".

    The reason this behavior is different in CV from what happens in SV/ HV is that the "prefab" used for the PEntity (the Player Entity, my guess) to be visible "seated" is different for CV and for SV/HV.

    There would be no reason to "maintain" an invisible player model outside a cockpit when the player camera is now attached to the vessel in a specific position. In fact what @Scoob mentions might be closer to what the game really does : when the player sits in a cockpit he "becomes" part of it, and the sitting model is just there for display (with head turning) but still has lots of HP (20 000), if what is shown in the EClassConfig.ecf is what I believe it is. The other, "normal" player model is probably "destroyed" (removed from memory) and also its characteristics (hp & stuff) after having been "passed" to the "sitting" entity. That may be where a reference is still pointing to a (now) zero/ nil health entity while the player is actually controlling another one. Just a wild guess.


    There still has to be separate damage for both the player and the cockpit because of hunger, O2 missing, health conditions counters still ticking, etc. If things were not set up that way then players could "evade" such ailments by jumping in a cockpit, which would "suspend time" for these conditions, and they could then search for a cure safely from their ship.

    In the EClassConfig.ecf, around lines 310 and below, there are the 3 "player-vessels" classes definitions for when a player is in control of a ship : Entity Name: HV_Player, SV_Player and CV_Player. Both SV and HV share the same "prefab : SV" while the CV class uses the "prefab : CV" which, according to the small relevant comment, "determines the PEntity prefab that is used". The reason for having different PEntity for CV and for SV/HV is most probably because of the block scale difference between CV and SV/HV, thus requiring different "attach" points defined relative to the "parent" block's origin (SV/HV "seat" is 3 blocks in length, CV "seat" is less than 1 block length).

    Because we were not provided with any details regarding weapons or player character "attach points" and other specifics to have models positioned (or weapons working) correctly, when I tried making a custom cockpit the player just got spawned at the ship's core location upon "entering" the cockpit I made (CV), and all I could do was rotate the view while at the core's block origin. I can't remember if I even had a "body".

    We can also see the "MaxHealth: 20000" parameter, which is the same for the 3 types, and obviously unrelated to any cockpit's real HP pool.
     
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  15. imlarry425

    imlarry425 Captain

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    Good to see you K. Yeah, I can see how that might be the way it is but in my case the cockpit was shielded and took no damage while I (the pilot) did.

    I suspect they carry the pilot in a cockpit along as an instantiated entity because it would be the easier approach- you already need to do it for open cockpit seats, you can find faction pilots in the map view, pilots getting near stuff can trigger events, etc. There are so many behaviors tied to player proximity that doing it two ways would be an unnecessary complication with no tangible benefit.

    That and having seen my legs dangling out the bottom as if I was going to a costume party dressed as a space ship... 8^)
     
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  16. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    Oh I did get one-shotted too once or twice while in a cockpit and died while the ship stayed intact floating above me. Clearly this can't be explained with only "visual" clues and there must be a gap somewhere in time for bullets to ignore the first thing they encounter to hit the player instead.

    If I remember well we used to be able to raid POIs in a mini-SV with an open cockpit and we were virtually immune to damage even if exposed. This changed when they allowed critters to "melee" through a closed cockpit at some point, as players reported this being a bit far fetched for some animals who could "lash" through the windshield... I even wonder if it was not @Scoob who reported this at some point.
     
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  17. Scoob

    Scoob Rear Admiral

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    I do recall mentioning being attacked through an intact cockpit by melee attackers, can't recall if it was a formal report or not though.

    While I've not been melee attacked through a cockpit in ages - I assume that issue at least is now fixed - melee attackers do walk through my enclosed cockpits at will. So, there's something odd about enclosed cockpits that allow critters to clip through them with ease which might be linked to the cockpit snipe bug.

    Scoob.
     
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