CPU Limits and Blocks

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by MikeCobalt44, Aug 21, 2022.

  1. MikeCobalt44

    MikeCobalt44 Ensign

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    Hey everybody :), I'm building a rather large spacestation and The CPU with the maximum number of *Allowed extenders has fallen far short for the job.
    First question why do inert, does nothing blocks require CPU? or is this a system to limit structure and vehicle sizes/complexity for the game engine sake?
    Second, why limit the number of Extenders? if somebody/a group wants to put in the effort/group activity to keep adding more extenders, why stop that?
    Last Question, After researching this a bit and thinking I need to change the settings to allow this (and possibly others) to function will I "Lose" all of the structures and vehicles I have already built with my time in Empyrion with a New Game *Or can I change that setting as it is (Creative Mode atm)?
     
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  2. XLJedi

    XLJedi Lieutenant

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    My take on the structure having an impact on a CPU would be that blocks are not just blocks, they contain power conduits, ventilation, and fuel lines that allow your systems to function. The hull of an aircraft carrier would probably be more complex in these terms than a small fighter or hovercraft.

    Although I think the 10 million limit is far too small for tier 4 (given the cost of large thrusters) and should be more like 50 million, there is an endgame Advanced (unlimited) CPU that you can earn with the galactic tokens. Keeping in mind, some of this is also limited by Class Size which is a control mechanism for spawning stupid large CVs and BAs on the MP servers.

    Creative mode doesn't have an option to enable/disable the settings (they are just off), however you can change them anytime in a Survival mode game at the screen you use to resume any save game.
     
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  3. MikeCobalt44

    MikeCobalt44 Ensign

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    Yes that figures. I would like to keep atleast a few of these builds and this station in particular sine I started it I'm coming up with a few story ideas for a scenario centered around this station (The Bad guys , POI).
     
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  4. ravien_ff

    ravien_ff Rear Admiral

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    Well good news is POIs ignore CPU! So you can go crazy if it's a POI.
    Now whether or not players can make use of it after they take it over is another story...
     
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  5. MikeCobalt44

    MikeCobalt44 Ensign

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    Wow, thanks. this really changes the entire subject. Plenty of different steels, doors and other structural building mats.
     
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  6. spacegal

    spacegal Commander

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    Hello guys,

    may I borrow this thread for a... similar topic? If I may not of course tell me and I'll open a new thread no problem :)

    Now I've never had an issue with blocks and CPU but I must admit I like to play only in Survival and in that mode I guess I don't spend all the time in building huge things.

    On the other hand I like a lot to play with both volumes and CPU active (in my last playthrough I've disabled both just to try and I felt like cheating :) ) and I had a question on the CV: even installing the T4 CPU and having a lot still to build to reach the cap CV have a predefined limit on some turrets.

    Why is that happening? Wouldn't be a good thing to leave to players the choice of how to use CPU points? In CV you may still have 1mil CPU points at your disposal but no more turrets of some type can be installed: why does it happen if the CPU can still manage those?

    Thank you: if my question is OT sorry and please tell me so that I can ask elsewhere.
     
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  7. Insopor

    Insopor Lieutenant

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    Just do some simple math.
    Divide the CPU cost of an XL thruster by the CPU cost of a turret. As that's most likely what you'll be swapping out.

    1 XL thruster is 54 rocket turrets.
    I can have two XLs in each direction, making my ship go stupid fast. If I only use 12 XL, I think that'll leave me around 2mil CPU to play around with considering all the other stuff needed and how I usually build ships
    With 2mil spare CPU on a fully kitted CV, I can then add 206 rocket turrets without going over the 10mil limit.
    I could go over by another million before seeing any noticeable performance hit.

    So that's 300 something rocket turrets, or about 150 plasma/artillery, 1200 miniguns, or 2300 flak.

    With those numbers, just say goodbye to decent framerates. And if you're on server, well... RIP.


    So performance is a factor.

    But also balance. Weapon CPU cost vs thruster CPU cost is so far off that there would be no viable tradeoff between the two. Your best option would always be to just stack crap tons of turrets.

    I think I could reasonably build a CV sans weapons for 3-4 million CPU. So my above example of numbers goes even farther. You could have literally thousands of turrets if you built it right.

    So yeah, that's why.
     
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  8. stanley bourdon

    stanley bourdon Captain

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    You can turn off device limits when you set up the difficulty of a game. If you set block limits for certain devices to false.
     
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  9. MikeCobalt44

    MikeCobalt44 Ensign

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    Just noticed this additional bit; ofcourse it can run on this thread, it's discussing the same issue. What I'm building now is a Space Station so it doesnt have any thrusters just structural componets some weapons, doors and (hopefully) signals (trying to simulate a thinking/responsive enemy). It is big but there are Larger and far more Complex Ships and Base's already here and that's why I was surprised when I first noticed the Maximum CPU was going to run out long before it was finished. Having this as a POI and the focus of several missions within a scenario means it doesnt have to be *Active, just sit there; It's only impact on the engine is to "Be There".
     
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  10. Arthmoor

    Arthmoor Commander

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    Not sure what all you're doing to run into problems with 10 million CPU, but it's a hell of a lot. So much so that it takes a concerted effort to stick so many guns on a ship as to be nearly insane.

    I have a ship where I put literally everything you could onto it, and didn't come anywhere close to 10 million. Even with a ton of turrets on it, it's only sitting around 4 million or so. Well within vanilla limits.
     
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  11. Insopor

    Insopor Lieutenant

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    PvP ships push the 10mil limit all the time. But that's only because they come pretty much standard with 20 - 40kt of xeno and then also need a good amount of thrusters to move such a beast. Then you have to account for redundancies and backup devices.
    Personally, I could build up to about 15mil or thereabouts, depending on the design. But again, I also have some T3 ships that I have smoked people with, and can smoke most AI ships in the game with little difficulty.

    Yeah, 10mil is a lot. You can definitely make use of it. But for most people's needs, it's way too much.
     
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  12. spacegal

    spacegal Commander

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    Thank you Insopor: sorry for being late but job has returned with all the strength of 10.000 meeting per day ;)

    In my last playthrough I've removed the limit of course but it's the first time in years I'm playing like that since alpha 2 and I must confess that the game is incredibly 'easy' if you're used to respect volumes CPU and the like... it seemed to me like cheating sometimes ;)

    About mr Arthmoor yes that's exactly the point: why having 10M CPU if you can add only 14 or 16 of some kind of turrets and dozens of others and not reaching at all the CPU limit? And about that or friend Insopor answered :)

    ...oh sorry I forgot to say that I'm playing SP and with that of course even 30 turrets is more than enough but on the other hand cannot add a turret when you still had to fill 5M CPU is bad.

    Happy playing friends!
     
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  13. The Big Brzezinski

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    This topic has long been on my mind.
    [​IMG]
    I don't know when or why block limits started. I know the option to disable them came sometime in alpha 7.3, but not if they were meant for technical or gameplay purposes. What I do know is that they can't be interacted with. They are hard limits that effect every ship you make, and cannot be worked around.

    CPU limitation I know to be a gameplay system. It pushes you, and you push back. It effects every part of design exponentially. Armor, weapons, propulsion, power, cargo capacity, everything pulls against everything else. Finding the right balance to fulfill a structure's purpose is gameplay.

    Block limits frustrate CPU. They dictate which weapons may be on your ship in spite of your choices. For some blocks, this is unavoidable. The limitations of solar power would be meaningless if you could add infinite solar panels, for instance. But when block limits only allow you to outfit a random assortment of disparate weapons worth 4.5% of a T4 ship's CPU allotment instead of cohesive and useful primary, secondary, and tertiary batteries, they are causing pointless harm. At best, block limits are moot because CPU has already moderated the design so they are not reached. A T1 SV with six 15 mm guns is very well armed, for instance. At worst, block limits strangles the very concept of a battleship in its crib. A T4 ship has 667% of the CPU of a T3, but can barely even double its firepower.

    This isn't to say CPU is perfectly balanced. It's far from it, in fact. But I don't think CPU costs can be adjusted anymore. Too much time has passed, too much work done that would have to be replicated. Instead, weapons other blocks themselves could stand to be readjusted. Current values are already the product of such work, so I think they're already on the right track. For T4 ships, with their significant size, I think some new larger weapons are needed. I imagine something as simple as double, triple, and quadruple versions of existing turrets would fit the bill just fine. My own battleship carries over a hundred artillery and laser turrets. Cutting that down to a third or quarter of that number of triple and quad mounts would be very reasonable, especially if their multiple-round-consuming shots counted as a single projectile for reduced processing load.
     
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  14. MikeCobalt44

    MikeCobalt44 Ensign

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    Right now that Space Station This thread is about is really nothing but blocks, there are some doors, maybe 10 weapons (to get an idea of what I want) but otherwise, it's just blocks. So for now it's headed for "Over CPU" for just blocks. As before this is *Hopefully going to be a repeating POI for a scenario I'm trying to build and one of the main hubs for the story, being Impressive is helpful to the story. I could understand if I was building something full of weapons and giant engines, but for now it's just a shell with corridors and rooms.
     
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  15. The Big Brzezinski

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    For a POI, CPU is only worth considering if you want to accommodate players taking it over as a base. Same goes for power. It's not fun popping in your own core and hearing every generator in the joint go snap crackle pop, but thems the breaks. If that doesn't happen, though, it might be worth considering to move in.

    Otherwise, extenders are just greebles and salvage. Everybody needs more optronics, so the sight of more big green tape decks is always welcome.
     
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  16. XLJedi

    XLJedi Lieutenant

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    How big is your ship?

    The 10 mil limit (for me) has nothing to do with guns. I obey the block limits for weapons.

    If you try to build something that actually maxes out the size of the creative build area you need quite a few XL engines. I'm probably close to the limit with nothing but the hull, but I haven't actually stripped it to check.

    To spawn it in game will require the unlimited CPU acquired via galactic tokens. I'm already at 53 mil CPU and still not done building it. Not sure if I will ever finish building it.

    There are a few pictures on this workshop page showing a small fighter landing on it.
    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2849689207
     
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    Last edited: Sep 18, 2022
  17. Arthmoor

    Arthmoor Commander

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    I see, that's a pretty nice Battlestar, but it's the kind of thing I was talking about. That took a specific effort to build something that big and that close to running out the CPU limits.
     
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  18. XLJedi

    XLJedi Lieutenant

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    Thanks. I think my main point is that if you use the creative space available without any mods, then there should be a CPU limit that allows for it.

    Presently a 10 mil CPU limit is just not adequate for the creative space they give you. Based on the builds I've attempted that use the available space, the CPU limit needs to be more like 50 or 60 million to accommodate the CPU draw from simple block usage. So it's not like I'm just barely close to reaching 10 mil, I surpass it by like 5x or 6x.

    I have also criticized the lack of a "glowey block" for engines that would allow you to put several of them together so they look like one large engine, as opposed to 30-50 XL thrusters pointing backward.
     
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  19. Escarli

    Escarli Rear Admiral

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    You trying to build the death star or something? Can do a hell of a lot with 10 million cpu, and sorry but 30-50 XL thrusters?!?!?!?!?!?!!
     
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  20. XLJedi

    XLJedi Lieutenant

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    I posted a link to the pictures a post or two above. Here it is again:
    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2849689207

    No, nowhere near the size of a deathstar. It's about a one-quarter scale Battlestar actually.

    Old pic of the main thruster array before I textured it.
    [​IMG]

    The CPU limit should be properly scaled to the size of ship/base you are allowed to build in creative and spawn into the game.
     
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    Last edited: Sep 19, 2022

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