My thoughts on the crafting system.... Well I personally don't enjoy it to the degree that I probably should... As a big fan of space engineers (and annoyed at it since seem to refuse to focus on optimization and making a better engine...) I really enjoyed being able to place down a scaffold or template and have it be there so that I could bring parts along and weld them in, it also made construction of larger vessels by smaller vessels feasible. Trying to build a small ground vehicle at the moment in survival and being quite annoyed every time I misplace an object, have to slowly grind it down, repair any blocks in the vicinity, then go recraft another with the parts that I got back. All in all, I do not enjoy the current block crafting system, and I will agree with other members about the tooltips and window size, but that's either an easy fix or can come later. I agree with jake on the micromanagement, and this extends to moving power packs and oxygen tanks. Management is fine an all, but between picking crops, hunting, getting air, filling my air, moving items, eating, crafting everything, and then trying to build on top of that, ehhhh... a lot of interuption. This is fine, as Emprion IS a survival game, but I really don't enjoy the block crafting system... I don't want to be too harsh as making games... is a lot of work and I love your game, but I think here I will have to disagree with the majority on the crafting of blocks to place down. (hey look i can store cargo crates inside my cargo crates) Edit: BWONG
How about making an option or plan/blueprint so that we can create robots that will "manage"the tedious part of construction? That will at least provide more RP reality to the whole process whilst making it shorter for those who want to be out harvesting or exploring while crafting is happening. Perhaps keep the basic crafting as it is but have the robot(s) function in such a way that the raw materials are loaded along with a plan or blueprint and left to create. Alternative to adding the plan to the robot would be having classes of robots that build specific things ... mothership bots, landing craft bots etc. Then have these bots hold the plans for the classes that they can build only? Just some ideas to help make it more interactive and realistic whilst reducing crafting time for players
Micromanagement and a lot of manual work is OK for the first few days of playing. Later in game you really should be able to set up machines that make things easier. A Managing Computer would be nice that makes every inventory of a base (or a mothership) available to every machine, refills fuel tanks and oxygen tanks. The material requirements can be made so that you normally can't afford it at the start of a game. Another useful block would be a Life Support System that fills closed rooms with air and recycles CO2 to O2 automatically. You only need to fill it once with O2 and you don't need to refill unless you have a leak in your base or ship hull. Mining on ice planets should produce ice. Oxygen Generator and Water Generator should be able to process ice in addition to liquid water from a lake.
I like that idea. A robot equipped with a big constructor, a generator and enough resources that creates structures from blueprints.
My two cents on crafting: 1) Some of the items take a wee bit long to craft. Ammunition is the one I hate the most. It would be interesting if there were different crafters that had improvements for specific items. Or hey, even upgrades/modifications to allow same. 2) I see there's a science station added. I assume there will eventually be a tech tree. I find it slightly odd that the real limitation to crafting higher tier stuff is just the materials. It feels like there should be some more balance and requirements: e.g., more power, higher level, some chance of failure, prerequisite research, etc. We see a tiny bit of that with large constructor vs. small constructor. 3) It would be cool and add some flavor if people could have something unique to themselves. Call it alien technology, augmentations, epic loot, or whatever you like. I'd like things only I can craft, so I can trade them with my buddy for things only he can craft. 4) There's a strange lack of armor or shielding. Only thrusters can be armored. I'd like to craft tougher components or lighter components, depending on my need. 5) Either a sticky window, a total parts breakdown, or some way of knowing that Fridge is going to take computers, which take controllers, etc. 6) I'd like to be able to modify the crafting queue by dragging things around, or at the very least remove things without turning the crafter off. 7) Oh how I wish I could move things in and out of the crafter (or other inventories) with some automation. I am very grateful for the shift-clicking that was added though!
I really REALLY don't like the idea of research. I just hate anything that boils down to "sit and wait while a bar fills up". I'd much rather see advanced blueprints instead be "discoverable" for players to find and fight for out in the world. Maybe have an advanced weapon blueprint be on a heavily guarded spacestation, in some monster infested cave, etc. You could even ad some type of scanner so that the player can search for the blueprints he wants to find.
Why not both? That way you're not stuck on the other kind of grind. Looting random box after random box is essentially waiting around but in a different way. Sometimes I just want my green HUD display without searching 20000 random crates.
Good point, I could live with that. Though if they did that scanner block thing I'd suggested then you wouldn't have to search for random crates, you'd just select which blueprint you want to search for and it would tell you the nearest location that has it. (Might even just randomly generate one on the fly somewhere for you to go attack/explore)
That's a pretty cool idea, especially if it led to what amounts to instanced events. Sounds like fun! I guess another alternative would be to have science as a resource that you mine or collect and then you can spend to unlock whatever you like.
Crafting System Feedback Having come from playing games (MMOs) with incredibly complex crafting systems like Star Wars Galaxies... Empyrion's crafting system is a little clunky but it has good promise and I personally, like the complexity of it. However, with complexity, comes frustration when new players cannot figure out what the crap nebula they need to make or end up wasting resources on stuff they didn't need. In fact, this happened to me while trying to build stuff for my first BA in survival mode. I ended up making SV/CV stuff instead and totally wasted the components. This was about the time I noticed that the small constructor can only craft certain items and many of the items have the same name... but can only be used on certain bases/vessels. You can have the cake (complexity) and eat it too! (Filtering/Scalability) It took me a bit to discover the color coding system for craftable items but this is really important. So much so, that we need to ability to toggle on/off items through a database category system embedded into the UI/game. It's not as complex as it sounds, but every craftable item needs to have a set of identifiers (BA Flag, GV Flag, SV Flag, CV Flag, Component Flag, Primary Systems Flag, Secondary Systems Flag - See my post in UI Feedback on Primary and Secondary Systems for more) on it through the item database inside the Unity engine. This way, the player can search for items, scale the information in the window through toggles and make it easier for them to work with the constructor. Let's talk about crafting theory before I get into more detailed suggestions: Crafting Theory Crafting will not always be on top of everyone's list (players) but if you, the developers want to make a memorable sandbox style game then you will need a complex crafting system to keep those of us, like me, infatuated with it. With that in mind, let's break down crafting into simple terms: 1. Resources: The players gathers raw resources and turns them into usable components for crafting. This requires the player to identify, search and harvest the required resources. Resource quality is an extremely advanced component to crafting that I feel should be left off the table for now. Essentially, resources can have their own quality which is scaled from say, 1-1000 with 1000 being the highest, purest form. When premium resources are used to construct things like weapons, that resource quality directly impacts the damage, ammunition capacity, range and reload times for the weapon. Thus, higher quality resources equal higher quality weapons. Again... resource quality is something I would not implement until the crafting UI is widely accepted by the player base in quality of life and scalability. 2. Components: The player creates components that can only be used in the creation of craftable items. Things like electronics, metal pieces, pipes, etc... these items cannot be placed in the game environment and have no real use other than crafting. Managing these components is absolutely critical because an average player may not understand that they can only be used to build other things. Components therefore, should be categorized and flagged appropriately in the UI and database. 3. Schematics: (Side Note: Yes, Schematics, we aren't cooking. Recipes are for cooking/preparing food, schematics are blueprints for building tangible items.) Schematics are a template and require a combination of resources and components to create a tangible item(s) used in the game environment. Schematics should be flagged as to their purpose and display their requirements as well as supporting/adjacent schematics to build a series of items. (For example: An Assault Rifle Schematic shows the ammunition it requires in order to be operational as a system. The player then knows that they must construct additional items. 4. Crafting: Crafting is utilizing resources, components, schematics and a constructor to convert these items into useable objects to be used in game. The crafting interface must be simple enough for the player to navigate, easy enough for them to understand, yet complex enough to afford the player "room to grow" as they advance in experience and time invested in the game. A crafting station should allow the player to filter, sort and prioritize components and schematics in a manner that allows them to understand the progression required to craft an object. Crafting also requires that the player be able to queue items for crafting quickly and add/remove quantities without stopping the crafting station (constructor). 5. Recycling: Recycling is the ability to take an assembled item into the crafting station and break it down into base components and/or resources. This allows the player to recover from errors and helps to alleviate frustration. The only resource that is lost is time and power. Components can also be recycled into base resources to allow the player to recover materials when a mistake is made. 6. Research: Research allows the player to upgrade their knowledge in schematics and resource utilization. Schematics are improved, resources/components used are reduced, craft times reduced, recycling yield increased, etc. This is an advanced section for crafting similar to resource quality yet this could be slowly implemented as time permits without much real change to the schematic database other than "tiers" or "levels" for upgrades. Continued on next post...
CONTINUED.... Crafting UI & Quality of Life Improvements Given this is an alpha version, I expected a functional but clunky UI for crafting. Honestly I'm impressed that you guys were able to implement as much as you have. This is how I would change the UI: 1. Flagging System: Every item, resource, component, schematic needs to be flagged in the database with what it does, or is used for. This will allow scalability/searching possible. 2. UI Tabs: Information and organization is important, especially for new players! By creatings tabs, you can solve the screen space dilemma and still have scalable complexity. I would break the tabs into the following categories: Queue/Inventory, Resources, Components, Schematics (With Sections or Tabs for Each: Player, Base, Ground Vehicles, Small Vessels, Captial Vessels, Miscellaneous, Etc.) Blueprints, Recycling, Research, Options/Help. The research tab could also be used to help players understand what they can craft to start with to survive and what they need to plan for in the future if they want to get out and explore. You could combine a roadmap/help and research/advancement here. 3. Filters/Toggles/Search: With the items database flagged, you should be able to open the crafting interface and click the "Options" tab to filter resources, components and schematics that pertain to "X" such as: I want to build a Base, I click "BA" in the options tab and it removes everything that doesn't pertain to a base so that when I click through the schematics I can see exactly what I want without being overwhelmed. OR... the tabs alone would be sufficient enough to categorize everything. Depends on how advanced we get down the road really. You could also filter out tiers of upgrades and conduct a search as well. This should make crafting pretty easy to navigate and understand. The current color coding system is good, I would expand on this and make it a bit more visable and noticeable. 4. Resource Consumption and Queues: When I put an item into the queue, I'd like the resources to go with it. This will prevent over crafting and allow players to get a feel for costs. I would add to the color shading a little so that craftable items stand out a bit more either with a highlighted box around the icon or better contrast between the available and not available items. We should be able to add/remove and move items in the queue without having to shut the constructor off. Often times I will have the station going on a large project and I need to quickly make 10 of "x".... so I drop 10 of "x" into the queue and drag/drop it over to the number 1 slot and it takes priority now as soon as it finishes the current craft in progress. (If I had 100 Iron Ingots being made, it's in the middle of number 75 when I slide it out of the first position. It finishes the craft on # 75 and then starts on the new one. The 74 order stays queued in slot two. We also need to be able to "click to add or remove" 1, 10, 100 and 1000 in quantity without using 10 different hotkey combinations. I would suggest setting it via the UI in the options tab I talked about. So, when you queue up an item, it pulls the resources into the queue (not visible by the player), when you remove it, it drops them back into the inventory. If a player needs to craft a bunch of items to eventually build "x" and wants to queue it, that's fine, just keep it red like it is now. EDIT: I'd also like to suggest the ability to control crafting from my datapad (I know, it doesn't exist but I want to communicate the concept.) Let's say I'm really busy building a CV in space and I have a constructor or three setup at my base on Omnicron. I could, in theory, open my datapad, click on a tab and pull up all of my crafting stations in list form. Let's say I want to give one of them some instructions... I click on it, and it opens the crafting UI and I can remotely manage the queue. I won't be able to add/remove resources or components but I can at least get some stuff going remotely. That... would be incredible. From a conceptual standpoint, this "remote" viewing and limited control could be applied to several things in the game, not just crafting. 5. Resources, Components and Datapads: The constructor inventory could use some color coding and/or a divider for resources and components to help people organize things that can only be used for crafting. Should be simple and might be helpful for people to understand the difference. It may also be helpful to be able to click a schematic and "send requirements to datapad" to give players a quick reference for field work. Take/make simple notes in game and display them via a datapad or suit AI. Think of all the trees you could save if players can make simple notes! 6. Blueprints: The ultimate craft! I haven't played with blueprints much (currently) so I may be way off here as to what they actually do. With that in mind, here's how I envision it... A blueprint can be a complex structure that a player can "drop" into place. It could be a ship, vehicle or base and they could be shared, traded, imported/exported... lots of potential here and it's incredibly exciting for me! I could see pulling up a blueprint and it would list EVERYTHING I would need to make to build it. I send that blueprint to the Queue... the crafting begins! If I don't have everything... I can send a note to my datapad and go fetch it without forgetting. When it's done... it's a pre-assembled package that takes up a slot OR it takes up "X" notional slots either in the player inventory or blueprint database. I can then go out and place it on the ground or in space! Now... this feature does two things... not only is it awesome but it helps players who seriously don't want to dive into crafting. They can do "pop and drops" and just gather resources. For me, it's a massive convience and really frees up time in my conquest for galactic domination. I won't just survive... I will thrive!
I suspect the basis of these flags are already in the Unity item db. It's just a matter of filtering display now.
For this there should still be simple hotkey combinations like the shift+click = 10,etc. I would just make a new combination (mentioned if you hover over crafting templates) for example: shift + right click opens up a small pop-up window where you have e.g. a slider for different amounts or a field where you type in how many times you want to craft this template. Same for the "removing" of templates from the queue. This is something I would really love to see. I can't even see and end of potential with these, but this is for when (imo) the crafting system in general got an overhaul. There are so many awesome ways to do crafting/crafting systems! I am curious to see what the dev's will come up with since sooo many players request an upgrade of the current crafting system. As you mentioned, I am impressed by what they did so far (pre-alpha), too.
Turboxide ... have you seen The Repopulation ... that has the most complex crafting system I have ever seen. I am still trying to get my head around some of it.
I have not but I will check it out. I really enjoy crafting but I also sympathize with those who hate it. In Star Wars Galaxies, you could create a special class of character that ONLY crafts and literally spend your entire day harvesting, queueing and the like. I really enjoyed it because when I didn't want to craft I could log into my combat toon and go raid or fly. I think we have great promise here I just hope the devs can see the value of scalable complexity.
Thanks Bonsai! In regard to hotkeys, I'm not against them per say... I just prefer to have options to either set the hotkeys or toggle/select my clicky options when handling stacks of items.
I made some really crude pictures with powerpoint to illustrate how my feedback/suggestions above can be worked into the UI for crafting. I gave two options, neither are perfect but they capture the concept of tabs, filtering, sorting and how it could work. It's also worth mentioning that perhaps later, we could have some options to customize (within reason) the crafting UI so it's tailored to the crafter's needs by allowing them to select from a few window templates. Again, these are examples for reference only, I hope this helps my wall of text make sense! Crafting UI Version 1 (My favorite!) NOTE: With the tabs in the big window, items that you drop into the constructor would be sorted automatically into their categories... Inventory (Miscellaneous Items,) Resources (Ores, Ingots, Etc.,) Components (Metal Pieces, Pipes, Glass, Etc.) - It would be possible to remove those tabs in favor of "Inventory" and then divide the window into panes for the categories. Either way, this type of UI provides a ton of space and I feel that keeping items segregated is important, especially for newer players. Inventories can get real messy and then folks over-craft or forget they have something because they cannot find it. Not a deal breaker but quality of life. Crafting UI Version 2 (This version could be organized several ways!) NOTE: With this version, the Queue and Inventory panes are static. The center pane will have all the tabs needed and the player will need to drag/drop items. The Tab Pane could be pushed to the right in favor of keeping the Queue and Constructor Inventory closer to the Player Inventory for drag/drop actions. Either way, there's potential here but the space is more limited.
I really like the aforementioned idea of a, well, dynamic crafting system. Tedious microcrafting is fine with me, as long as it is a part of ONLY the early game. I'd love to see progressively easier crafting simultaneously to the advancing game. This gives two benefits at once: 1. It emphasizes the survival aspect in the early part of the game, thus enhancing immersion. 2. It makes room for other tasks in the later game. Maybe you could make it optional.. different crafting game modes you can set when launching a new game. Something like.. 1. Hardcore (no easier crafting); 2. Normal (see above); 3. Arcade (easy crafting from start)
I think I'd prefer it if crafting became easier as a result of progress. As an example, maybe an early crafting station is terribly inefficient but, as you progress in experience, technology, or whatever the limiting factor is, then you can build better crafters or more specialized crafters. Or upgrades. A lot of games handle this with 'quality'. Let's say you start building blocks and their quality is 5% of their total potential (in terms of hit points or armor). After you craft some, you get better and better at making them. This would be beneficial even in multiplayer. You could be the Block Man and your friend could be the Ammo man. Etc. This mechanic seems really easy to implement and would make things interesting rather quickly. Edit - it doesn't have to be implemented in a "grindy" way either. You could "discover" this kind of technology in the wild or as you craft have breakthroughs, etc.
