Little Work in Progress

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Taelyn, Sep 17, 2020.

  1. ChumSickle

    ChumSickle Captain

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    Well, to be fair, "time" is basically the answer for anything. My point being, the changes to sound files and explosion graphics doesnt >seem< like it would be too difficult to change unlike a massive undertaking like adding new storyline missions, land claiming, or any other "roadmap" style project.

    I get it, as much as anyone, there are just a few dudes out there building this sucker. But its hard to imagine one of them seeing how awesome Vermillion made his weapons sound and then just copy the files over and poof...new sounds.

    And again, to make sure this is made perfectly clear: I am not bashing Eleon, not in any way.

    I think, actually, a more fair question would be to @Vermillion and @Ravien to see exactly how difficult changes like sound effects and explosion effects are. For all I know, they could be stupid hard to code.
     
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  2. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    What was done in the "mods" is simply enabling/ disabling sound effects that were already used, or shuffling them around. You can see by yourself by comparing the original and modded configs. Just check vanilla ItemsConfig.ecf and the modded version side-by-side in notepad++ and see what the differences are. Open both files, then click on one of the file's tab and "move to other view" and you will see the 2 files each in a 1/2 window. Then scroll down in both and compare items.

    We can't add/ remove new sounds or textures, these are compressed in resource packs. There is no way that we can, for example, modify spatial distribution of sound (stereo panning, surround effects, etc) without coding it, we can't have new and more varied "footsteps" (they all sound equal = too few samples), and these have to be either recorded, cleaned, compressed and inserted in some database, and scripts have to be created to play them at different volumes depending on location (for stereo/ surround effects).

    Eleon has provided many scenarios, the tutorial among others, but they know better than us if it's worth spending lots of time on these, if some components are due to be changed or improved. For exemple, when the first tutorial came out, we only had the PDA interface to script it. They tried to improve it a bit, but then we got the "dialogues" system, which renders the old way of doing these things obsolete. While it's cool for scenario makers, those who spent lots of time on the old system might not see it that way...

    What lacks now regarding sound is, really, more "ambiant" effects (water dripping from pipes, electric buzz from neon lights, rusty door hinges noises, more variety in containers open/ close, thrusters with progressive intensity, etc), and make sounds fit in space (close/ far, left/right, etc). It can be done with the old sounds, and we can also have all new samples, but that is secondary to the function.

    Not going into animation here, but we all know there are lots to be addressed, and these take time, even with a dedicated team of animators. Sound is much easier to fix than animations.
     
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  3. ChumSickle

    ChumSickle Captain

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    So, yeah, it >is< a simple fix then that shouldnt take time at all to enhance the sound effects. My point still stands, there are some real low hanging fruit that could be picked that would enhance game play. I am looking forward to them being done in the future.

    Im not, in any way, speaking ill of Eleon. They have a priority list and I am confident they will get to it.
     
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  4. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    Well it depends on what you refer to as a "simple fix" for sound effects. Most of us agree that hearing Zirax growls from the 3rd floor below as loud (and "centered") as the ones in the same room is "bad" and most likely a placeholder solution, and simply changing these sounds is not a "fix".

    I know you are not speaking ill of Eleon. I just want you to understand that the configs (txt edit) and code ( C#, Mono) are two very different things. Anyone can change numbers and shuffle (some) properties around in the configs, but only Eleon can make the scripts driving sound (proper position/ distance, multiple samples playing simultaneously without muting each other, etc) and make new, better samples, if that is planned.

    So when comparing what Eleon does /can do with scripts and what players do /can do with the configs, it is like comparing a drill with a screw.
     
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  5. ChumSickle

    ChumSickle Captain

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    No, I totally get it. But a simple example is making the pulse rifle not sound like a direct rip off of Aliens. The reforged fellas managed to change the sounds of most of the weapons and they all (in my opinion) sound far more genuine and "realistic". So if this is a matter of just shuffling the properties, then make it happen. I fully understand how some of the other stuff isnt so easy. I never mentioned the matter of sounds coming from different places, just that its the exact sounds over and over and at times its sounds (weapons) that should (in my own opinion) be switched up.
     
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  6. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    Apart from the sound volume, there are no "properties" to adjust. As for "shuffling" :

    Reforged Pulse Rifle uses old vanilla Assault Rifle T2 sounds
    Reforged Assault Rifle T2 uses vanilla Assault Rifle Epic (& Debug) sounds
    Reforged Assault Rifle Epic uses vanilla old (disabled) Assault rifle Epic sounds

    No "new" sounds here. These are all auto rifles, and we heard all these sounds, just not on the same weapons or in the same version. It's not like if the Pistol had a rocket launcher sound and finally got a more "pistolly" sound, isn't it ?

    And just like mining, combat balance or resource distribution, these all point to personal preferences. The fact that some players like a particular setup does not mean all players should have that setup imposed on them, and that's why Eleon gave us the configs.

    You could as well tell me "CPU is cool and fun" but you know what I will answer : my playstyle is better than yours.
     
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  7. ChumSickle

    ChumSickle Captain

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    I never said they were new. I never said they explicitly added anything. I said they were changed and improved, and I explicitly stated that it was my opinion. So you keep reinforcing my point that these changes are extremely simple to implement because they are already there. Just in the files.

    I now feel like you are arguing a point that I am not, nor have I ever attempted to make. But to further kick you in the "I feel like arguing this" button: It doesnt matter if every sound effect in the world is already coded in, it isnt what the player is presented with. If I go to a restaurant and complain that the burgers are too plain, they cant say "Well, we have the ingredients in the back to make it how you want, we just dont." then they sum total for the customer is that it doesnt matter what is in the kitchen, only what ends up on their plate. And saying "Its in the config files if you want it" is just saying "well the customer is welcome to go into the kitchen and make it himself" but ignores the fact that most people dine out because they dont feel like cooking or more importantly, dont know how.
     
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  8. Khazul

    Khazul Rear Admiral

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    A wierd thing I have just noticed:

    If you change the capacity of PentaxidTanks, for eg to double it to:
    VolumeCapacity: 1200, type: float, display: true, formatter: Liter
    Then existing created tanks on structures will NOT update. The new value only seems to take effect if you first remove and then replace the tank, or spawn a new structure.
     
    #68
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  9. krosbonez

    krosbonez Lieutenant

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    None of this seems like game breaking bugs or glitches. All of the above can be handled in late Beta polish. I would rather the devs spend time on game mechanics, balancing current implementations, and adding new/more content. If I were strictly "playing" and not actively playtesting maybe I would feel different.
    Take Star Citizen as an example of devs polishing a T*rd. They spend so much time on the looks and sounds of the game, but yet there is only maybe 2-3 hours worth of any content.....if you make it that far before a crash/glitch!

    Just my thoughts on the subject.
     
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  10. ChumSickle

    ChumSickle Captain

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    Oh, I totally and completely agree with you. Its fluff and buff. But just speaking from the perspective of someone who is flitting about Steam and see the game and decide to give it a go. They arent thinking "in a few months/years this will be fluffed out", they are thinking "what am I seeing now?" So I am coming from it from the direction of "just playing" and not with a tester or a hard core fan who has taken the time to dig in and see what exactly Eleon is working for.
     
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  11. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    Yeah, and just like so many of these new players you just don't care about what others tell you, you want the employees of the restaurant go into the buffet and make the burger for you while other customers wait in line to get served for what is not in the buffet but only possible to be made back in the kitchen where customers are not allowed.

    Your analogy puts the "burger ingredients" in the kitchen, while the subject is that config files are like a self-serve buffet. The "employees only" part is where they make the ingredients for the buffet. Is that clearer now ?

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    A little story :

    Once upon a time there was a small take-out restaurant where they served burgers and sandwiches. Customers would come in the front door, get to the counter and pay for their food, got it wrapped and then went out to enjoy it. Sometimes customers would ask for a different type of sauce or cheese, and the restaurant's owner went in the kitchen and asked the employees to get that new sauce type and cheese. That made the restaurant very popular, as clients spread the word around that "this restaurant would do everything to please its customers".

    But over time, more and more customers asked for new ingredients for sandwiches and burgers, and the kitchen could hold only a small staff, so at some point they could not serve customers at the counter and run around fetching new ingredients, so the owner made the decision to make a self-serve buffet, where the most commonly ordered ingredients would be, for customers to make their sandwiches and burgers themselves, from an assortment of ready-made ingredients.

    Still, from time to time, new customers would come in, look at the self-serve buffet, and not finding an already made burger for them would walk to the counter to ask employees to make a generic burger. The employees now being mainly busy running around for new ingredients and to restock the self-serve counter were still trying to please everyone, but other customers back at the self-serve counter were not always happy to see another, new customer go at the counter ask for someone to make the burger or sandwich for them, knowing that the self-serve buffet will not be restocked if employees start serving individual customers back at the counter.

    At some point, some clients volunteered to make burgers for clients at the self-serve buffet. The restaurant owner was please by this generosity, but warned customers that this part of the restaurant was not covered and customers were using the service with "no strings attached" for the restaurant. At some point, new customers coming in began to think that the volunteers at the self-serve buffet were the same kind of employees as the ones running around for ingredients and cooking stuff in the kitchen, and started asking them for things they could not do or did not know, because they were not the restaurant's employees.

    And that is where we are now. The restaurant's owner could of course put up a sign somewhere explaining that the volunteers at the self-serve counter can not make new ingredients, but given now that the self-serve counter had close to 14 thousand ingredients customers were a bit confused as to what was possible to get at the buffet, and what was only possible to obtain at the counter (new ingredients).
     
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    Last edited: Nov 17, 2020
  12. ChumSickle

    ChumSickle Captain

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    Brother...config files are not on the buffet. I would wager that the VAST majority of gamers in the world download it to steam, click play, and never even see where the files go.

    Mass/Vol, CPU, Keep Inventory on Death, Resource amounts, Enemy difficulty...that is the buffet.
     
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  13. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    I edited my post.

    The options in the game's menu are just the most popular, already-made burgers and sandwiches available on one of the plates. To get the other options, customers have to open one of the numerous insulated ingredients compartments. Some customers understand that, and some don't, and still ask at the counter for an employee to come at the buffet, open compartments and make the burger for the client.

    And again, just because you think that X burger should be on the main display plate, ready to take-out, does not mean that other customers agree.

    But there is this option : open a thread for weapon sounds, and make a poll. There is no point trying to convince me that your taste is better than others, and that surely is the same for many players.

    And in the poll, ask these questions : do you want Eleon to spend time on small things we can change ourselves (or ask another player to do it, or to show how to do it) or do you want Eleon to focus on new things and bugfixes ?
     
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  14. ChumSickle

    ChumSickle Captain

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    At this point I am just going to assume that you are intentionally keeping an argument going that no one really cares about or that is even on point.

    My initial comment was that there seemed to be some low hanging fruit in changes that could be made. You backed up the claim that these changes are not difficult. In fact, they are so simple we can do them ourselves. So cool.

    I never insisted my opinion was superior to anyones, on the contrary I have stated a few times that this is all >my< opinion.

    It is >your< opinion that messing with a games config files is something that is normal accepted practice for most gamers. It may be for some, but for most players dont go digging in config files to switch things around. I am thrilled that you, and others, are capable of this with skill and certainty.

    I have also stated, a few times, that I have no issue with the direction that Eleon is going in thier development, or that I would even care to intervene with a poll in an attempt to sway them. In truth, I have little need to as the Reforged mods are mentioned many times in the "wanted/enhancements" thread on this self-same forum. So, they know, they have seen it.

    You are insisting on making a mountain out of a mole hill in regards to this discussion, and I have been happy to oblige you because I really have the free time today. But seriously, I do not disagree with you, so please stop coming up with new ways to argue with someone who, at the core, doesnt have an argument with you.

    And I did not go back and read your edit, because I really just dont care at this point.
     
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  15. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    If you consider yourself being "no one" then I must agree. I suggest that if you're still here trying to push the same weak point across after all what I wrote, it's because you care.
     
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  16. ChumSickle

    ChumSickle Captain

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    I am terribly sorry that you have taken such personal offense to whatever has transpired here. I have never seen anyone get so worked up and argumentative about someone who, at the core, doesnt disagree with them.

    My point being "weak" is a matter of your personal opinion...and it wasnt even a point. It was a question, and you had an answer. One that I acknowledged, time and again, as valid. But the point still stands: There are probably some low hanging fruit that Eleon could develop, but are busy doing other things. And I will repeat it again, in case you still cannot get this point: I am fine with them not doing it.
     
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  17. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    How can you say anything about how I may feel just by reading what I write on a forum ? Are you so sensible that seeing someone disagree with you is like an "offense" ? Get out of your bedroom and take a walk in the real world, and you might see people that disagree with you while still being polite and unaffected.

    Well generally speaking, like you are doing now, either you are the frustrated one and you're now trying to deviate the subject on attacking the messenger and not the message, or you just don't really know what you're talking about. In either case, I'm not offended, this just shows a lack of education on your part. And this does not make me angry. Next step will be insults? Don't worry, I'm used to insults too, so go at it if that's all what you have left. You're just the n'th new player that tries this on me.

    Like the saying goes in English language : "from kettle to pot".
     
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  18. ChumSickle

    ChumSickle Captain

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    I freely admit, I am a bit "frustrated". I made a simple comment about wondering why they dont implement some of the easier changes. From there this has led into some petty back and forth and I really, truly, have no idea what you are trying to argue or prove.

    The whole subject was "I think there are some low hanging fruit they could grab that would enhance the game". That was the sum total of my entire "argument" here. And you yourself supported the fact that many of the changes that I, and many people in the "wanted" section, want are simple adjusting of the files. Your basic response was "Its a matter of time, priority, and many of those changes are a matter of opinion." And none of those have I had any issue with being valid.

    I never disagreed that it was a matter of "time" and of priorities. I never disagreed that they have more pressing things to work on. I never disagreed that many of the changes are a matter of preference and opinion. I have never implied any form of superiority in my wants or desires in the game. My comment was merely "I wish they would make some of the simpler changes, and I am not sure why they dont."

    I have yet to insult you, nor will I. Though you have made veiled insults towards me with implying a "lack of education" and my being " in a bedroom needing to take a walk in the real world".
     
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  19. Spoon

    Spoon Captain

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    Your post is good, if you think that the burgers that are made as standard are also tasty to the majority of people who purchase them.
    What if the majority of people thing that the main burgers could be better by swapping some of the ingredients from the buffet. That would make most people happy.
    I don't know the percentage of people who comment about the poor sound of the weapons, but there are quite a few.
    Even if a pole was put up and the majority was to agree with a change then that feedback may just be ignored, like it was with the change to the crosshair.... Also you would have to be able to hear the sounds of each option, so that people can then vote properly.
     
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  20. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    First, let me get something out of the debate : when you imply that I have "taken such personal offense to whatever has transpired here" and that you have "never seen anyone get so worked up and argumentative about someone who, at the core, doesnt disagree with them" you're in fact throwing the first blow. And you disagree, even though you pretend that you don't.

    When you write that you don't understand why Eleon does not copy the "customization" some players made, I answer " because of time", to which you agree. I think I explained the reasons why Eleon gave us the configs, and why they may not see the need to integrate some changes made by players (they may, and may not). Now you saying again and again that because these are "low hanging fruits" does not mean that all players want these same fruits picked up, and this is where you go back at the start of the loop : if it's easy to do, why Eleon doesn't do it ?

    And you try to give more weight to this argument that these changes should be made (by Eleon) because some players mentioned them in the "wanted" thread. I suggest you also look at many other "wanted" features in there, and see why should Eleon spend time on X more than Y.

    That is why I suggested you make a poll, but given the tiny fraction of the playerbase that would answer there, I think it's not even worth the effort.

    I got your point that you don't mind Eleon not making these changes. And now I think you understand that what Eleon can do and what Vermillion and Ravien have done is not for the same audience, and all this "low hanging fruits that could/ should/ might be picked up" is highly subjective, and that is reason enough by itself for Eleon to leave it to players to customize their game as they like, intead of imposing another "subjective" change upon everyone because a handful of players had fun in a scenario, while all the other players have been waiting for years to get some fundamental bug fixes and feature enhancement.

    And yes, @Spoon : while we can simply lower the volume if some weapon sounds annoy us (or be courageous and get in the config activity), we have zero option for the crosshair, not even in the config files. And this is another "low hanging fruit" that is, in my view, way more important than weapon sounds, as this can ruin the experience for some players.
     
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