Soapbox ON: My opinion only, But after over 25 years of playing (and designing/modding/modeling) in video games, in multiple game engines, I have come to the conclusion long ago, that ANY game utilizing constantly respawning enemies, in any way, is simply lazy game design, PERIOD. You want to throw hordes of enemies at me, fine, just let it end at some point. Especially in games that use a leveling system, it's basically an exploit once you figure out that: A: The enemies ARE constantly respawning and, B: Where this trigger is located. It is then a simple matter of retriggering this to level up/ improve faction status/ whatever, as long as you have ammo! The problems begin when you don't REALIZE there are constant respawning enemies until the 3rd or 4th pass thru once you die, and you will, (spare me the stories of your leet slillz) you have essentially "cheated" without even knowing you did it. Yes, I like to "role play" in survival games and take death very seriously. (Personally, if I die before getting a base established, I restart a new game, but that's just me) I also play with poor resources and high environmental impact too. This is a survival game after all. ;-) Anyways, I am finding more and more of this constant respawning crap in POI's (I wont list them here, just know I am making the changes to them and re-saving so at least I don't have to deal with this B.S. when I find them) But it's getting more prevalent in Emperion and I don't like it one bit. I have done level design for years, I KNOW there are better ways of increasing difficulty without resorting to constant respawning enemies. Disclaimer: "This post is not meant to offend anyone it is not directed at anyone or any clan. The authors opinions expressed here are valid only at the point in time he is writing it. The Author reserves the right to withdraw any comment or change his opinions entirely." Have a good day!!! -(C) 1998, R.Hunter Inc. All Rights Reserved. Soapbox OFF
I think in games like Serious Sam or Space Invaders it's ok to have lots of enemy spawning, but in games like Empyrion where we have to mine and scavenge for hours, getting wrecked and seeing "work" (not "play") crippled by endless waves of (the same) enemies is indeed "lazy". Add to this that in Empyrion there is no effort to "hide the mechanic" as the game uses very obvious spawn plates in structures. At least it leaves a chance to stop the invasion, but if the plates can't be shot rapidly players can get drowned... I remember the arcade era, where most games were a question of beating a score or completing a puzzle in a given time. After the rising popularity of 3d/ first person shooters, there was a switch in paradigm where "death" had become some kind of "game element" just like others, to the point where in recent years we even saw this new genre where death is practically unavoidable, moreso if the game had a "Prepare to Die" motto under its main title. I never enjoyed that kind of gaming philosophy, and I think it distorted some people's perception of what a "fun" videogame could be. To be honest and blunt, I think many players have a problem if they enjoy losing that much. Maybe it compensates for a lack of achievement in their real life, or they feel that "punishment" was "earned" because they have that perception about themselves... go figure. In any event it's not even a question of "skill" because it's just long and boring pattern learning. While some people may be tempted to say that it takes genres for all tastes, I would be tempted to say that some tastes are questionable, and some even rejected by social norm. New games always try to push the visual elements further towards more realism, but on the other side the "content" didn't move an inch from the first computer games where story was central and graphics were just a support for it. Because of that most players rush through a game in just a week or two, and the industry now sees the opportunity to make very shiny "empty shells" with the same recipes for content, and the "story" often feel as an afterthought. There are gems that stand out of the lot, of course, but in the whole production these gems are becoming a very small fraction of the whole. Empyrion has one big advantage here by being highly customizable. We just need a bit more polish and robustness to start seeing what can really be done with that beast. The way it is already set up is very promising, so I don't give much importance to the "infinite respawn" because like you wrote, Space Ghost, we can fix it on our side. Would be much better to have more variety, as many players now realize that we see the same things spread all over the galaxy. I would personally prefer bigger structures with less colors, larger corridors and rooms, fewer but more dangerous enemies only when needed, and I would not try to make each POI an "ultimate mini game" that will look like all others in the end. The POIs we have are nice builds, but to my taste they are too detailed for no reason, because most players will simply not notice half of those details and just rush to core/ dismantle it. And that's a pity for the guys who spent hours and days building them. But honestly, this is a game where the playground is a galaxy and whole planets, so the POIs really need to represent that scale, and maybe let go a bit of the fine details everywhere and focus on shapes, size and function. Same for turrets : because the POIs are so small, their weapons are all crammed together in a tight visual space, and it's not fun for players because it's like trying to put our hand in a basket full of crabs. The rules for POI building were put long time ago on the forum, and unfortunately I don't want to follow these, because that's not my idea at all of how to make "game levels". You wrote that you designed levels yourself, so I think we're on the same page here. We've all seen many other games, we know what can be done, and there is no reason not to try it in Empyrion. .
We aim to have no endless waves of enemies in the Default Survival scenario - but we have about 900 POIs so I cannot guarantee that the older ones still are set to infinite. If you find some, let me know. But note: the newer ones MIGHT have endless spawn as well BUT there is either a way to destroy the spawnpad (we use that visual spawnpad in this case, which is destructible, even in admin cored POIs, to indicate what you should do) OR a mechanic will take care of it (like a lever or such). All in all, I agree that "endless waves" is not appropriate for Empyrion - this is why we changed that.
Agreed with all. I will freely admit I have been struggling with design in Empyrion as it is quite a bit different than others I have worked with from a "level design" stand point. This game, due to the procedural nature of it, relies more heavily on the "programming side" <-- My weakest aspect of level design, clearly) than say, at least the games I have worked with at length, Cryengine and Unreal engine for FPS single player level design, since the "levels" themselves don't get "made" until run time. I also do better in the other engines as (for the most part) you are utilizing existing game assets to set the stage as it were. Here, you have blocks. And everything I ever seem to build, be it a ship or a base, ends up looking like a brick. Flying or otherwise. But I digress. But my point (yes, long winded, just ask my wife) There certainly can be some unintentional oversight with the increasing complex and fantastic POI work being done now, but there are some that it is clearly an intentional design element due to it's prevalence.
No disrespect but I feel like we're playing 2 different games. I have never seen endless spawns. In fact, I stopped shooting the spawners as they seem to only spawn 2-3 enemies at the same time and then nothing ever again. My big complaint about POIs, especially newer ones or ones you find in specific scenarios, is the use of POI based turrets INSIDE THE DAMNED BUILDING! Ridiculous design in my opinion. I'm not talking about the little turrets designed as "anti-personnel" I'm talking about those huge laser turrets POI creators usually put on the outside as a defense against HV tanks, SV, and CV ships.
I take it that the original post is about enemies constantly respawning from POI spawner pads and not enemies/wildlife in general? That I can understand. Still need to emphasize though: Respawn (enemies, creatures, resources etc.) is absolutely vital for any sandbox and/or freeroaming game. By intentionally limiting it is no different than a soft time limit on lasting appeal. These are games that's supposed to be played endlessly until the player him/herself burns out. For that, there should always be things to shoot and mine without having to travel further and wider each time to find it. Until it all runs out anyway. Unlike real life, you cannot add 9 billion NPCs to a single planet or resource veins that you can mine on industrial scale for decades. Respawn exist to make up for this. The trick is in making respawn mechanics dynamic to give the impression that they're actually coming from somewhere.
There has to be a middle ground : if players can get to level 25 shooting enemies in a corridor it makes no sense. It also makes no sense to ask for a galaxy and then complain that we have to explore to find something. Some players only explore 20 planets then say "the galaxy is empty" because they did not find the ONE thing they were looking for. If POIs can respawn, there is no real need for many enemy respawns as a general rule for POIs.
If there was 9 billions of the little f*****s then I think we would want nukes for orbital bombardment to keep them in line...
Be that Zirax or spiders? For Zirax, 9 billion would be enough to prompt a massive nuclear strike. For spiders, just 9 is enough...
Empyrion actually already have a middle ground in the form of drone base dropships, come to think of it. It doesn't always work as intended but, it can be improved. With more reliable/responsive dropships, we don't really need enemies in POIs to respawn at all. Dropships bringing new troops is already a more dynamic form of enemy respawn. Yes, it is easy to just park an HV outside the POI to shoot down incoming dropships but, that's part of strategy. I would actually prefer to respawn the POI itself instead of the enemies inside. It will give the impression that enemy factions actually try to take back territory they've lost. In a more dynamic/conditional method than simple POI regen though.
