FEATURE INFO Spawn, Respawn, Destruction settings of AI Vessels

Discussion in 'FAQ & Feedback' started by Hummel-o-War, Jul 28, 2020.

  1. Don't Panic

    Don't Panic Commander

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    Yes you could argue about it for hours, it's just a shame that the two camps PvE and PvP have separated so far from each other.
    Therefore it would be important to have the right game mechanics in the game.
    Eleon means everything that works in the SP goes to MP and the rest can be done by server owners and Senario writers.
    I don't think they know how much work it is to configure a server without the right options and mechanics to create the balance between the two camps.
    For this you have to do a full time job including API programming see HWS or the mods from ASTIC.
    I was recently on a German server where PvE players beat a PvP player down in the chat just because he asked if the new map to version 1 would add a little more PvP area.
    The player left the server and the server operator had one donor less. And the PvP player was not an ass, so for me sometimes the PvE players are the asses (don't want to offend anyone, so please don't get me wrong).
     
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  2. Brimstone

    Brimstone Rear Admiral

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    This is incorrect. EGS was conceived as a SP/CoOp game from the beginning. If anything, PvP intruded into it and has far more drastically curtailed PvE than the opposite. The fact that you can no longer log back in to a seat alone is more harm to CoOp/PvE players than anything the other way

    Not really, and it's to be expected. PvPers want to prey on PvE, PvE don't want to deal with PvP. Notice it's only PvPers constantly calling for forced mixed servers.

    PvP should be a separate scenario completely, so all the tweaks that work for it can be done there- and more power to those that want to play it. Let the majority of us that want SP/CoOp PvE do our thing with the settings that work for us too.
     
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  3. jones99306

    jones99306 Lieutenant

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    Yup, pretty much this, but I think it's mainly due to the nature of PvP itself. The strong prey on the weak, just like in the natural world around us. Ultima Online proved that player killers (PvP) is greatly disruptive to a community, so they need a seperate area. EVE Online does this with High security and Low security areas (though PvP is possible anywhere, just less likely in High security). PvE players tend to be juicy targets due to their high value cargo and ships.

    I really don't know what the solution is for Empyrion. Obviously there is a desire for PvP, and the game supports it. Trouble is, because of poor optimizations, the size of PvP is severely limited and not as juicy as players want. So, the other joy is destroying other ships, and PvE players totally hate this, so where to go?

    Perhaps a model similar to EVE Online would work? Making certain systems PvP enabled and others not? But, with warping the way it is right now (must warp with shields off, and always appear in the same spot), then destructo camps will form right at the entrances of PvP areas (again, like EVE Online) and people won't have much opportunity to get through. It's a nasty problem. I think Brimstone is right, PvP should be totally seperate.

    How did respawn destruction get turned to PvP?
     
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  4. Don't Panic

    Don't Panic Commander

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    That's wrong Empyrion was conceived as a multiplayer right from the start.

    https://forum.unity.com/threads/emp...rvival-game-you-have-been-waiting-for.271086/

    Yes, the internet forgets nothing.
     
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  5. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    Brimstone wrote " SP/ COOP " - this includes " multiplayer". To be more accurate, all 3 modes were planned from the start, according to the link you put here. Just below the series of images, in the section " Main Game Features " :

    Space and land combats:
    - Empyrion features a variety of enemies reaching from wild creatures living on planets to intelligent alien races that can attack you everywhere.
    - Single, multiplayer and co-operative:
    - Besides single player, Empyrion features PvP and co-operative gameplay

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    The problem is mixing PvE/COOP and PvP.

    About PvP : I am not absolutely against PvP, but there are some distinctions to be made here, and many players mentioned this:

    - " private " PvP can be fun. Some friends setup a server, make teams, and follow some rules. That can make for cool play sessions because players know each other and want to have fun in a fair environment. I plan to gather some friends when the game development settles down a bit, then make a simple game setup for 2 teams PvP, maybe with some objectives. We did that with other games, and Empyrion has the potential to make this fun and a "Friday night Beer and Frag party" on a regular basis.

    - " public PvP " has been described here enough, I don't need to explain it further. In a game like this where players have to spend hours and days to get resources to be able to adequatly defend themselves, this is the recipe for failure and frustration. I keep away from that, for all types of games.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    At this point I don't really care for server owners that tried to monetize their setup while following latest/ experimental branch, as they have been told repeatedly of the consequences. And I'm tired of repeating this. They could have stayed on a older version that was stable enough to focus on building a scenario and make playfields fair and fun. And if they can't spend the time to make things fair and try to attract PvE players to be cannon fodder for their PvP players, they are the ones to blame, like you wrote, for the players deserting their servers altogether.
     
    #165
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  6. Don't Panic

    Don't Panic Commander

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    I was referring to Brimstone pretending that PvP and multiplayer was later intruded into the game, as he says. And that's not right.

    But I suspect that he had very bad experiences with PvP the way he defends his point of view. And I can accept that.
     
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  7. Normal69

    Normal69 Lieutenant

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    There are games already with a honor/casus belli system.
    We could use something like that.

    Also we already have factions, but player and npc ones.

    if a playerkiller (and I do not consider that PVP) loots a base of a faction, all factions who liked the victim's will get more hostile to the offender (of course who hated the victim like him a bit more).

    All we need is that the positive change be a lot smaller than the negative - then a careless playerkille who does kill for loot left and right would be hunted by everyone (you see he is hated by all, so killing him repeatedly gets into the good graces of all existing other factions by the above rules).

    Also there could be war and peace declaration between player factions, to enable the good way of PVPing. :)

    Ps: dumbing down/automatize the game because there are dumb server owners isn't a fine idea - then why I've spent time to be clever, beside beaturiful? It was a complete waste of time. :D
     
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  8. Brimstone

    Brimstone Rear Admiral

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    I did indeed. Used to love PvP and spent time at the top of leaderboards in several games. The tone of the average PvP player is much different today than it used to be, and I no longer find it fun

    My problem with it in Empyrion specifically are the changes due to PvP exploit abuse that then negatively impact PvE, such as the seat logout issue, coupled with this rabid insistence on the part of some players that PvP be forced into every MP server.

    If people want to PvP, more power to them. I've said that there should be a specific PvP scenario that can contain all the tweaks PvP needs without impacting the majority of other players. I even encouraged someone to become the Ravien or Vermilion of PvP in another thread
     
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  9. DJNOOB

    DJNOOB Ensign

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    Yeah this just feels like the ages old issue. Destiny and The Division come to mind where they attempt to combine PVE and PVP in a single game and it just doesn't work. Trying to balance for PVP play just screws up the PVE gameplay and makes it less fun while creating content for PVE unbalances the PVP. I can't think of a single game that get's it right. I agree, they should be separated. I think most PVE players want nothing to do with PVP anyways. But it seems like PVP players keep trying to force this combined PVE/PVP scenario and I think that's just comes from a desire to have easy targets. (Whether they want to admit that is a whole other story)
     
    #169
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  10. IndigoWyrd

    IndigoWyrd Rear Admiral

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    Yes, absolutely. BUT... a few changes would have to be made to target recognition. Imagine:

    You capture a Zirax frigate and fly it around. Other Zirax ships see it, and go "It's one of ours, leave it be.", allowing you to infiltrate their bases/stations, or pass through their territory unchallenged - at least, as long as you're not opening fire on them. Or perhaps you're just fed up with that Polaris shop-keeper who always overcharges you, but you want to keep your reputation with Polairis, so you hurl a volley of plasma through the windows of his shop with that Zirax frigate, implicating the Zirax for the attack.

    Just a few thoughts.
     
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  11. IndigoWyrd

    IndigoWyrd Rear Admiral

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    Never played Destiny, well aware of the issues with Tom Clancy's: The PvP Exploit... err.. Division.

    The seat thing.. I could see fixing the issue in a different kind of manner - one that involves checking where a ship is - if it's in PvE space, fine, save and load players in their seats if MP, always save/load players in their seats in SP. If it's in PvP space, a little warning message: "You will be returned to your nearest "Home Spawn" or Base when you log in next." and give them the option to say "Nevermind, I'll go somewhere safe to log out first."

    Honestly, I'd say Empyrion does one of the better jobs merging PvP and PvE than most games. It's not perfect, it might never be perfect, but it's certainly better than most.
     
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  12. Fawk

    Fawk Ensign

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    I mainly kill Legacy ships now and I notice the following:
    1. Most of the time after i destroy a legacy infestor and decore it i am able to put my own core if im fast. Then i can salvage it but it has invisible containers blocking the salvage so I have to strafe around the ship and zig zag multi tool. Then I can get all blocks and loot. This is very time consuming.
    2. If for any reason im fighting a few legacy ships and go past a certain range, not sure what that range is, when i return the legacy ship is gone or poofed. Loot remains in little containers.
    3. Very rarelly im able to core the ship and have no invisible blocks.

    I always do generators only thereby disabling ship and half the time destroying core from ship fire. It seems the ships i decore by hand with plasma cannon are the ones i do not get invisible blocks after putting my own core in.

    --
    How destroyed ships should work from my perspective.
    (Disabled defined as no core, or no power, or no engines or no guns)

    1. All disabled ships: 15 minute self destruct.
    2. All ships: Upon core destruction, 6 minute reinforcements timer.
    3. All ships: Self destruct leaves no loot.

    -
    Challenge to above:
    1. Even a single ship doesn't mean you can kill and expect to loot without concern.
    2. You can decide to loot a ship longer but risk losing your unpiloted ship. Encourages team play.
    3. You either loot fast, even when fighting multiple, or get nothing.

    The invisible blocks thing has to go.
     
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  13. Paladin69

    Paladin69 Ensign

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    I agree, there should be options for game control in single player or a limited to friends server. You should be able to capture anything an everything. Take it and sell it at a trading station if you wish, or put it up for trade or sale to other players.
     
    #173
  14. Treeshell

    Treeshell Lieutenant

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    Also agreed. There's nothing more disappointing and demoralising when a game presents you with a system and opportunities, then (seemingly) arbitrarily takes them away again just as you thought you had managed to achieve your dreams.
     
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  15. ChumSickle

    ChumSickle Captain

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    Im late to the game in going through all of these posts, but I still would like some explanation on a few things:

    Last night I had fighting a Zirax destroyer I was able to finally drill through and kill the core. Looted some, but ended up destroying much of it in the fight because I like explosions because big guns go boom. After it was cored the map icon turned white. A short distance away was a freighter I had destroyed and some other unshielded Zirax ship. Both of them stayed red...and when they "despawned" their map markers remained and I can still see them on my HUD.

    Also, one of the unshielded corvettes had shown up, and I cored it as well. Because more food for my guns was needed. But it remains on the map, still with a red label...

    So I am completely confused by why stuff remains on the map if it despawns, why some labels turn red, and some turn white. While I love the surgical nature of CV on CV fighting, there are times I really wish some of these ships were more like the drones in that they just explode into a temporary container for us to loot, and then vanish. If they are keeping wrecks in the system after core destruction, then I would really like them to be relabeled like all of the other "wrecks" we see when out exploring.

    Or...perhaps I am just anal and want to be able to really just clean them out of a system and see zero red blemishes on my screen.
     
    #175
  16. krosbonez

    krosbonez Lieutenant

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    I am a cautious Survivalist in single player....I play with "limited" lives then start a new game if I die that many times. I have only been able to disable a couple of Zirax CVs, after a long and tense space battle. I only had enough time to loot a small amount and salvage a few items before the ships despawn. The amount of reward vs risk has really put me off of even engaging with the ships. The amount of ammo and pentaxid used did not pay off in the end. Now I just avoid them and it is a little sad as that is a cool part of the game. I, like another poster on here, can loot and salvage 10 times the amount from a static POI on the surface, with a fraction of the amount of effort. I don't have a reason to even attack the CVs now, other than to just clear them out of my sector.
    I feel that if I fought the hard fight, I should be able to take that ship and do what I want with it.
     
    #176
  17. Jake Greenland

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    I know the devs have probably ignored this thread by now, and everything I have to say in some way or another has already been said, but I still need to explain my view on this 'feature'.

    It's not fun. Why do people play videogames? To have fun. But this mechanic truly, and unequivocally takes the fun out of fighting other capital vessels. There is no point. Why would I waste roughly a stack and a half of pentaxid, many stacks of ammunition, and much fuel to fight for a long time to take out and fight what turns out to be a big middle finger? Heck, the game itself has a tip on the loading screen that says something like "Patrol vessels are tough, but are well worth the reward." False advertising perhaps? I have seen people already talk about the 'risk/reward' and how it is non existent with the current form of the feature, and I can't help but agree. The orbital patrol vessels serve no purpose at all in this game now except to deter you from mining some asteroids, or fighting a space POI. Basically, they prevent you from ENJOYING THE GAME. When you fight them, you risk losing your capital vessel, and in some cases, like my playthroughs because I'm not the smartest player, you can lose everything with you because you carry lots on your CV/mobile base. You basically could start from scratch if you lose to one of these things for some players, and the reward for beating one ought to reflect that.

    Another problem I have right now is the attitude coming from the studio about it (from what I understand at least. I am not the most active member of this community so if the devs have not come off this way recently then I apologize). Basically, "That's the feature. You don't like it? Deal with it." Like, I don't understand why you want to alienate your player base so adamantly? It just comes off as very distasteful, disappointing, and rude. Not a good look for a studio.

    Now overall, what do I know about game design? I have never made a game in my life, and have no idea how any of the coding works, especially with a tiny crew to work with. I always want to give benefit of the doubt, and so maybe there is just no way the code would currently allow for other ways for the mechanic to work, no one knows for sure. Maybe I just don't really understand the purpose of the feature itself? I don't know, but that said I would like to give my ideas for how the mechanic could be altered for what I think could be the better.

    - Don't immediately punish a player for finally defeating a dreadnought or any patrol vessel. One way might be to completely remove the self destruct but keep the despawn. Make the ship despawn after like 5 minutes with a warning for such, but once the ship has had its own core removed or a player puts their own inside, the ship wont immediately remove all the good salvage from the ship. Give the player some semblance of reward by letting them not only get the containers within, but also get the generators, the fuel, the O2, the shield generator, and the CPU upgrades. This alone would make fighting these ships worth it. After 5 minutes, the entire thing despawns with all the loot the player forgot to get or couldn't get for whatever reason. That way the server saves its memory, and the player actually is rewarded for their efforts.

    Thank you for coming to my ted talk.
     
    #177
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  18. Treeshell

    Treeshell Lieutenant

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    @jake. Agree completely and I don't think these things can be said often enough. It kills the fun and seems like an arbitary rule, not made by the world in which you're in, but by people trying to 'balance'. Sure, freedom needs boundaries within a system to give what you do meaning, but this is a boundary that gives no meaning in itself.
     
    #178
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  19. Germanicus

    Germanicus Rear Admiral

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    THINK again!:rolleyes:

    The Devs CREATED this Thread and for each posting sent they get a notification - and if you don't know this: @Hummel-o-War reads ALL.;)(he created this Thread)
     
    #179
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  20. Jake Greenland

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    Well I certainly hope so, I don't want to come off as mean spirited towards them, just upset over a feature is all. Here's hoping they reconsider in the future!
     
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