Spawners in general could use more skins. The spawning process itself could also do with more fanfare and telegraphing. Actually a lot of things could use more telegraphing. Alert barks, Zirax taking careful aim with their rocket launcher or rifle, Zirax popping off panicked shots that will miss before attacking properly, monsters and animals winding up before a swing or lunge, golems that damage you at the end of the punch animation instead of before it. Just some indicator that pain is coming your way if you don't take action very quickly.
Respawning thin pads is one of the rules for vanilla. Don't. Unless there is a way to turn them off. So in one of my poi's not released yet (admin core) I do have respawning thin pads done in a way I hope people understand, but there's a lever that turns them off and opens the door to allow you to progress. Once done, that's it, no more respawning 100% guaranteed. This is NOT something I would do in a standard core poi. There is an awful lot of thought put into making poi's and one of the things you learn is even spawn pads take a while to spawn the npcs which in my experience means half the time it's destroyed before the second one spawns. I tend to use them as decoys allowing time for the thin spawn pads to spawn the npcs without the player seeing them spawn in. As I said, it's not as simple as it sounds. I am not about to make a poi with 100% spawn pads and run the risk of players destroying most of the spawn pads with little resistance (and yes I know thats a sweeping statement). But that's not to say i don't try my best to build something that is fair to the player and fun.
How does the player know that's what the lever does? There's no inherent indication. Do you have explosive blocks under the spawner plates that go off on the same signal?
They'll hear the blaster doors open and there is a visual representation of the spawners, trust me I've thought of that As to exactly how, spoilers
Invisible spawners are meant to simulate the NPCs "living in" the POI. They are meant to be used out of sight from the player so it gives the appearance that the NPC was always in the room they are in. They are meant to spawn a NPC once only, not respawn them outside of very specific challenges. Get rid of invisible spawners and we're back to trade stations having spawning pads all over the place. Even animals and alien creatures would need visible spawn pads then. It would ruin immersion and POI design.
Fired from the hip there? Already mentioned and cleared up, including the point about civilian POIs. To quote myself: Escarli also already explained where invisible spawners with respawn can be useful. In interesting ways, actually.
Considering the content of your first post, I'd say it might warrant more than one reply, just to make sure things are clear.
That consistency is appreciated. Shame we cannot get more styles of Spawner, i.e. one that looks just like grating, with some depth to it. Perhaps another that looks like deep hole or crack for placing in a wall. Having an array of Spawner models to place in a POI would be pretty nice, plus it'd enable everyone to follow some form of standard across all POI's. How about a "Star Gate" spawner? There's an appropriate model already in the game, that'd be quite cool. While it's possible in some POI's to know that something will likely spawn from there because the designer is consistent with texture use, that doesn't apply everywhere. I've seen POI's using that texture just as a texture, nothing else. There was no indication anything would spawn where it did in the POI I was tackling last night - can't recall the name, sorry. At the end of the day, for me, these invisible spawners - which can be considered basically one-way teleport pads - aren't ideal as the player cannot counter them. Well-placed but visible spawners would be my personal preference. Remember though, that my post is about the perfect storm combination of factors, many of them vanilla, that impact things in POI's. A Visible and destroyable spawner would put a stop to "late spawn" issues, as the player would see and be able to take out the spawner. If spawning works properly, the enemy is already there prior to the player being able to see the spawn point.
The invisible spawner plates is totally fine for population in civilian type POIs (like trade stations) and present garrisons in enemy POIs that do not respawn. Enemies that respawn should use the physical spawner pad so you can destroy it and prevent them from respawning. Respawning enemies from an invisible spawner is also fine if used as Escarli described, they can still be disabled via a switch. I've had POIs here and there with invisible respawning spawners but, judging by the responses from people that actually make POIs used in the game (vanilla or scenario), this is not the intention, so those POIs are exceptions.
So long as the player isn't asked to stop in the middle of their super kill mode and solve a puzzle, it will probably be okay. But I remember that old abandoned POI that pitfall dropped you in front of a large turret. That's the POI that taught me to blast my way in with SV rockets and CV cannons instead of walking in the front door. Remember the order of operations. Kill first, then ask question later.
Yep. While I definitely appreciate the artistic talent and effort that goes into designing these pois, this game just doesn't have the necessary suite of features to make ground combat anything more than a tedious grind. I think a lot of designers get so caught up in their creations that they disregard this game's inherent limitations, and try to make an environment that would be fantastic in a quality fps game. But this game will never be up to that standard. It excels in different areas. Trying to make a doom level work with empyrion just isn't going to work. That said, I do intend to watch an earlier poster who cleared a tough poi on foot. If nothing else, just to appreciate the skill it takes to overcome this game's limitations as an fps experience.
That's it really, base game limitations and bugs impact how the actual experience of these POI's plays out, irrespective of how well designed they are. It really does ruin the experience at times. I'm perhaps overly-sensitive to this now, before I'd just battle on after I died due to one of these issues, collect my backpack, organise my inventory and continue through the POI. However, years of experiencing glitches is now making go "NOPE!" at the first hint of screwiness. It's a shame, but I'm not playing to get frustrated...even if it is largely unavoidable. Because POI's are such a huge part of the game, the things affecting how these are experienced really need to be sorted. I suspect these issues are why the death penalty is still just inconvenience. Indeed, even that has been lessened with the option to keep all gear and just have to re-spawn. Even with a penalty this light though, having to repeat an action multiple times because a broken game mechanic caused to to die is not fun. I'm personally too fatigued from taking constant invalid damage to put energy in trying to complete a POI the "proper" way, if the game keeps throwing these issues at me. Again, to be clear, this isn't a dig at the work the POI's designers are doing, but about the lack of robustness of core game features. Sure, the some POI's might deliberately try to cheese the player, but it does seem that this is rarely the intent behind the design.
As an example of one of the issues I frequently see, I took a screenshot. In it, you'll see me high up on a wall, just entering the POI. Below are some "Argos Major" critters. These critters were able to melee attack me from the position you can see them in. This is a prime example of things able to attack both way beyond their physical reach and, to a degree, through blocks that are blocking LoS. Note: I was stood back further than this when actually engaged, I took this screenshot after they were dead. They were actually further away when they first "hit" me. Which is nuts. If they climbed the walls and actually faced me, while getting close enough, that would be cool. But no, they are obviously too far away to hit me and they're not even facing my direction. Of course, despite being too far away, they did lots of damage and gave me varieties of space herpes. As this is a BUG (involving bugs, sorta funny) I used the console to cure myself. Emersion broken though, needless to say. So, my tactical approach vs. this POI was as follows: Scoped (sniper) from a distance, identifying the Sentry Turrets that had shot at me during a fly-by in my CV - CV parked at a safe distance. Approach on foot to take out all Sentries I could see. Bring CV closer for eventual looting support and to aid quick returns as needed. Next, send the Drone over the walls to see what's about - I'd already heard the critters, but broken audio means I needed a visual. Critters spotted, wall top way above them so I jet-pack up there. I shoot the critters as they approach, not rushing as they cannot get close. I suddenly take massive damage and space herpes from their attacks that magically "hit" me, despite the obvious range. Broken. As ever, I'm in a nimble light-armour build, able to move fast and jet-pack high, in theory perfect for avoiding such melee. So, my approach was tactically sound. Identified threats (Sentries) eliminated, low threat (well out of range) melee attackers spotted and engaged, still take damage due to bugs. The key is that I should be safe where I am from a melee attacker. What the player perceives is NOT what the game does evidently.
Main thing I would say about POIs is that they have pacing issues. They're often just room after room of enemies without much variety. You always assume the next room contains danger. You're always breaching and clearing until the very end. You don't dare stop for fear that some silent rocket trooper will stumble upon you. You don't go back an investigate after the place is clear because, now that you've destroyed the core, the POI is just a pile of scrap waiting to be broken up. There's never a chance to stop and consider the environment beyond a threat assessment. You never have time to think of the POI as an actual place with its own history. You certainly never read anything, assuming you even can; We're not John Wick. We're not Doomguy. We're not Tenno. We're random dudes with rifles, jetpacks, and multitools. We see a POI, and starting making a cost/benefit analysis. Weapons wear out. Armor only lasts so long before it's combat ineffective. You can't just ramp up a POI's level of fiery death and justify it with technicolor loot capsules full of shiny garbage. Eventually, the player realizes it's not worth the effort and gives up trying. One of several things then happens. They might skip that POI from then on. They might stop playing entirely. They might resolve to just level the POI with their vessel weapons next time and pick through the ashes afterwards. In any case, the POI has, at this point, failed as a dungeon. It would help a lot to just have some quiet rooms with no enemies nearby or sentry guns trying to kill you. A first aid station with some public medical equipment. A break room with a fridge. A locker room with some showers and an O2 station. Something to suggest that this building has some purpose besides making players miserable and depleting their expensive supplies. Something to suggest there are things to do inside the POI besides kill anything that so much as twitches.
I'd just settle for death not being some random roll of the dice out of the player's control. That's what I mean by the tactical thing in this post. I don't mind facing enemies, but when the encounter doesn't go as it should due to basic game mechanics failing / being poorly balanced, it ruins both the experience the designer was trying to achieve and the player's fun and engagement. Speaking purely about POI design, there are things I perhaps don't like, such as when we're deliberately swarmed by lots of enemies in close proximity. However, the main reason I don't like that, and other things, is largely because the game delivers that poorly due to its various quirks. I personally tired of avoiding an entertaining trap set up by the designer or successfully fighting off that swarm only to still lose due to a broken core mechanic. Be it me taking damage when I should not like just now or simply being caught out by a late spawn trigger, it all takes away from the experience and the work the POI designer as done. Another example, there's one POI that's particularly hard, in that you flip levers to take out the Core right at the end of the POI, then LOADS of guys appear. My first thought, after all the Core was GONE in a big boom, was that I'd be safe now, then literal swarms of super-tough troops spawn in. Some pop in quite close - no chance - some pop in a bit further away (good) some manage to spawn in clipping into the POI, so are able to shoot me through blocks. That sucks. So, I thought this "trap" a bit cheesy to have so many troops spawn after the Core is dead but, I do wonder now if that was another example of spawner delay and whether those troops were designed to spawn more gradually, as I approached these POI-killing levers rather than all at once, after the Core was dead. That's the thing isn't it? I mean, I decide I dislike a given POI as it cheesed me, so I'll cheese it next time, but it wasn't the POI's fault as such, that things played out the way they did. I was looking forward to tackling this POI today, now I've exited the game and I'm done with it for now.
Really? So, Coreless POI's can still actively spawn enemies? I know that's what happens, but this discussion made me wonder if that was intended. If there had been a group of guys delivered by troop transport waiting for me outside that would have been cool. However, loads of tough troops spawning inside like that - especially as it can be quite glitchy - can be a little frustrating as they've pretty much always managed to kill me instantly, as they're firing the moment they spawn in. That said, I have had glitches play in my favour, with these troops either not spawning in at all, or actually spawning in a little more legitimately and approaching from around the corner so I can shoot them.
@Scoob I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the Infected project Eden story mission POIs in Reforged Eden. I made those POIs with a particular balance in mind, so would like to hear how they actually play out in practice. Note if you do them set the difficulty to easy as that would be equivalent to medium difficulty.
The Infected mission chain are the ones with the base on a snowy planet (very easy, designed for starting gear IIRC?) and leads to the derelict ship in orbit, yes? If so, while I've not done them recently, I don't recall having any particular issues other than the challenge you'd expect. Thinking about it, I do recall the odd spawner delay - though I didn't really know what was happening at the time - as the consistency of the Nightmare's spawning when entering the individual offices (of the infected staff) on the planetary base would vary. I.e. I'd open the door and there was the Nightmare popping in right away (easy to shoot) vs. a room apparently empty then something spawned very close to me moments later. Perhaps each room did have varied spawn timings? Having done many of the mission chains in the past, I generally just do my own thing when I start a fresh game. How can I best pick up this mission chain now? Starting system, snow planet as before? I'm happy to pick up this mission chain again, next time I play and give feedback. Note: I used to always set the game difficult to "Hard" but as that just seemed to make enemies more bullet spongy, I generally select "Medium" now. I think I can change it to "Easy" just for these POI's and pop it back later, right?
