DEV BLOG Version 1.5 Dev Blog: Factions

Discussion in 'News & Announcements' started by Hummel-o-War, Apr 23, 2021.

  1. ravien_ff

    ravien_ff Rear Admiral

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    It's also for balance, to give a CPU cost to adding thicker armor to your ship. While I personally strongly disagree with building blocks costing CPU, that is why they have a CPU cost.
     
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  2. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    That is just not making more sense. What does the thickness of a slab of metal have to do with requiring more "computational power units" ? And don't take my 1-guy-only word for this : the topic has been sufficiently discussed to have this well covered.

    Balance could have been solved by proper mass and power demand from thrusters, which in turn cost CPU. More mass because more blocks = need more thrusters + gens (CPU++) or go slow. There you have the balance + CPU related cost .

    This redundancy was not needed apart for restricting size of builds, because even if blocks only cost a tiny amount of CPU, any large build requires thousands, while thousands of devices is never seen ( not talking about windows of course...).
     
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  3. Germanicus

    Germanicus Rear Admiral

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    I hate it to get drawn, again, into a discussion about CPU:mad:.
    We got CPU.
    We got Mass and Volume.
    And....
    We got Shields....Shields - Phasing shields that apply a CURRENT to the HULL and other Devices. This means to ALL Types of Blocks. Not only the most obvious METAL Blocks but Concrete too. And as much as I hate it to say that...Concrete is electrically conductive too. Therefore CPU counts for Blocks as well as for Devices. Because 'something' draws on the power distribution System in the Vessel or Structure. And those blocks do not loose there conductivity simply by not having the shields switched on.
    So here are coming CPU and Shields together. One legitimates the other and vice versa. And Mass/Volume...go figure:p.

    And if someone wants to know.:rolleyes:...I am a certified heavy current engineer. So, yes, I know what I am talking about.;)
     
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  4. ravien_ff

    ravien_ff Rear Admiral

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    The reason blocks consume CPU is to balance defense versus offense. I don't agree with that, and I don't like it, and I'm glad we have the option to remove the CPU use. Blocks are already balanced around their mass and cost, like you said. But that is the rational I've seen them state for it publicly, so that is what I'm going with at least with my personal opinion.

    I guess the idea is that if there's a limit on your weapons due to cpu, there should also be a limit on the armor you can have due to cpu.
     
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  5. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    You're stretching it quite a bit.

    Concrete is a semi-conductor, at best, and "phasing shields" are still in the fantasy realm and not in reality yet. They apparently do not follow the conductivity rules you mention because they also affect glass and wood.

    But the point was not if we wanted/ agreed with CPU, it was the reason why CPU made it in the game, to which Cybermech disagreed and for which I provided videos.

    You don't even need an "opinion" : there is a video that explains why the CPU was done. Don't have to watch it all, I gave the timestamps to find where it starts.

    The discussion starts and is interrupted right away because xCaliber is unable to get his ship off the ground. We can hear a voice that it neither xCaliber's or Taelyn's saying it's because the ship is at 100% CPU limit, and that's what prevents it from lifting up.

    And since it's really not a large ship, no wonder values were changed after that, because it would have totally wrecked gameplay, but it showed clearly its effect : huge CVs would not fly, period.

    So it's pretty obvious : "Will CPU have an effect on server strain/ performance ?"

    If a ship can't even move... do I need to say more ? It's not even remotely a "maybe". But it was clearly stated too, at the very beginning of the explanation.
     
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  6. Germanicus

    Germanicus Rear Admiral

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    "You're stretching it quite a bit"

    @Kassonnade You' re right:p. It's my Way how I can soften my Rage about CPU for Concrete Blocks....;)
     
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  7. Germanicus

    Germanicus Rear Admiral

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    You are aware that this 'concept' of Defense/Attack-Value was applied FAR after CPU was implemented, yes?;):D
     
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  8. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    Many players made the inference that I must be a max-grid limit builder frustrated by CPU to oppose it, but in fact I am a minimalist, design follows function and aesthetics are not important, and my biggest "nice" ship may not even be 150 blocks long, and it went against all my fibers building that. But, hey, I'm an artist too, so I had to prove I could make something a bit less ugly from time to time... ^^

    And same for "specialization" : that is about all what I made in this game, so reading that "CPU will enforce specialization" was like being told that my roommates did something bad and I was going to get the blame with them even if I did nothing wrong...

    But if it's CPU for blocks that irates you, for my part it's the way shields were done. Visually, they are non-existent, and that is quite a let down for me and others who expected some kind of "bubble" around the ship against which we would see the splash of enemy projectiles and a change in color, something, anything to show shields are on/ weak / off.

    I'm still trying to find out a way to emulate this effect with either decals (a box-type shield) or even a transparent model, but obviously this would need to be done on a per-ship basis. Maybe for AI driven CV /BA ? Then tie this visual representation with the actual "real" shield and make the model switch (other color, animated ripples, etc) below X points, and just remove the model when shields are dead.

    But right now it's just a word, not a real sci-fi shield. CPU can be modded to become virtually inexistent, even if we insist to play with it. But shields will stay like they are despites all modding, apart from what I mention.
     
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  9. ravien_ff

    ravien_ff Rear Admiral

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    Yes, and the purpose of CPU was obviously changed since then. Linking to an old video to when CPU was only available to a streamer running a closed test branch doesn't have much relevance for the current version of the game.
     
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  10. Germanicus

    Germanicus Rear Admiral

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    I hear ya!
    Its for me the reason why I stopped playing any Scenario and place my focus on testing Vanilla only. To give my impression to the Devs about the new/old/improved/mangled features they come up with.
    Oh, and it was Spanjymen too who complained at once not being able to lift the Ass of his Superlifter(?)off the Planet:p:D
     
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  11. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    Correct. The point was not to discuss CPU, it was to offer proof of the original reason behind it, which was contested. And it's a bit normal that a PvP player would react to being told that he's partly responsible for the feature that started a wildfire as soon as it was released, and that made many players leave the game, because CPU now has nothing to do with CPU then.
     
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  12. Germanicus

    Germanicus Rear Admiral

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    C = Create
    P - Peoples
    U - Uproar
     
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  13. Khazul

    Khazul Rear Admiral

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    I would MUCH rather face that than a bunch of cheating, exploiting, gankers.

    Have NPCs slowly spreading their territory if left alone (including from their NPC neighbours) - YES!
    Give us the ability claim territory - zones, planets, space playfields, systems and eventually clusters of stars - why? Well just to color it OUR color instead of zirax red or whatever - for the hell of it.
     
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    Last edited: Apr 27, 2021
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  14. CyberMech

    CyberMech Commander

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    Those. do you offer everyone to create their own dedicated server games there according to their own rules instead of completing what was started? I don't even know what to say to this ..... but one effect will definitely give it - the game will become 100% only for PVE, because everyone who wants to create their own little world on their own server and hope that out of thousands of other servers it will be a couple of people will come to him to play there. Look what is happening now - all the top servers are 99.9% pve servers with reforged eden ....., and before that there was only 1 WHS left, although earlier there were 5-6 such servers. There is a simple pattern - the more differences you can create in terms of reworking many laws of the game (reforged eden, for example) - the more polarized society becomes in which there is no room for pvp players. In the end, everyone will get tired of the pve game and the same pve players will simply go to other competing games in the wake of pvp players. This is a bad result of the situation and I don't like it.
    With this point of view, you can agree or disagree, but time will tell what will happen next over time.

    The only thing players complained about when the CPU was added was that it kills creativity by setting too narrow frames, putting shoes in size 30 on the foot of 40. I remember how players asked to add a T5 processor level and how the developers said that he would think about this decision , but in the end, the Advanced core was simply added between which and the T4 level there is a huge gap. It's as if you built a house with 8 floors, and then just hung the 30th floor in the air ...
    I have already said more than once that there is a huge gap between the advanced core and T4 and there are 1-2 chain links missing. And I substantiated this.
    I have already argued that for solo play there is no difference at all what the CPU limit is and whether there is one at all. And you also talked and provided links to the stream with the developer that the CPU system does not solve performance problems, because limiting the size class of the vessel is still effective.
    I have also said more than once that for players who play the original game, they play in pve mode, and that game and with those "physical laws" that the game developer has created - there are no imbalances, because they do not often go beyond the T3 processor level, and the T4 processor level is needed for ships close to the military to attack other players. And he also said that the T4 level greatly reduces the capabilities of warships, turning them into a flying toilet cubicle, killing the soul of space and Sci-Fi in it, because does not allow to have decks and compartments, or the presence of minimum compartments significantly reduces the combat effectiveness of such ships against ships completely filled with blocks inside which there is only a pilot's seat.
    I also remember how players suggested adding bonuses in the presence of all processor levels T1 + T2 + T3 + T4 and the developer said that this is an interesting idea and maybe this will be the T5 processor level ... And I don't understand why they abandoned such a logical decision which would add 1 more missing "floor" between the roof suspended in the air in the form of Advanced core and the floors below. After all, if you have 4 personal computers - i3, i5, i7, i9, why can't you combine them into a common group that will perform a little more tasks than just 1 PC i9 ....? I do not see logic and common sense here. And I also don’t understand why pve players resist this so much, if the T5-T6 level does not worsen their gameplay in any way, and even vice versa - will give them the opportunity to fly on more durable ships and not be killed in the first minute of the battle when they are attacked by a T4 flying toilet 100% without premises inside it ....?
    And I also don't understand how this can affect those people who play pve in a single player game or play pve on servers with a pve scenario - reforged eden, where the entire CPU system is turned upside down, some of their own are installed limits, and the gatherers cannot even force the T4 aircraft carrier of Jeff Rendel to turn correctly in the sixth size class ... I will even say more, the launch vessel of the 4 size class, which is slightly larger than a large SV yacht, turns disgustingly slower than a huge yacht from an interplanetary citizen at the cost of about $, where the physics of the game is initially realistic .... How does that hinder you? What will you sacrifice or what will you lose with the introduction of T5 CPU lvl? Why are you so stubbornly trying to protect a sluggish house with a hanging roof over an unfinished floor, because as if something will be stolen from you?
    Here is one of their old starter ships for the initial game and as the first ship to leave the starter planet. This is not an advertisement, the ship has been popular for a long time and was published a long time ago. This is a civilian ship !!! A T4 civilian ship consuming 6kk CPU, built in the spirit of the ship of the same name from SC which I own. I made it to play on official servers and servers using the laws of the game that the developers gave us. It was created to be able to fly from 1 to 4 people and is able to survive 5-10 minutes under the fire of an attacking PVP warship. Look at it and remember what kind of game it is, what it is about and why in this game a lot of people used to build, exactly before !!!! - not anymore!!! HMS Enterprise, Star Destroyer, Han Solo's ship to reproduce the rear of which needs to be fitted with 8-12 3x3x6 engines, each of which wants 533k CPU points .... And they were all ships in the size class from 6.50 to 10-12.
    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1897854580
     
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    Last edited: Apr 29, 2021
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  15. CyberMech

    CyberMech Commander

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    In this game have already reproduced the geometry of the star destroyer more than once within the 10.50-12.50 size class. It fits nicely into these boundaries and has always been a pretty good PVP warship. This is not theory, this is practice - I have flown several models of such ships. They also had some detailing of the ship's compartments and had enough military functionality for the existing laws and combat mechanics. I only played a single game for about 30 hours, I didn't have enough strength for more. And if there were no multiplayer from servers on which it would be possible to hunt other players, then the game would have been deleted after 200 hours. All the time I spent in the creative side of the military and civil courts and buildings and on servers and everything about I say - this is not a theory - this is practice.

    Why does everyone want to send me to make my own server, or play reforged eden? Why do I need it? In general, I like the original game, the game that the developers made. And while playing this game, I find and show where "the line cannot join with another line" here, forming an irregular gap and disfiguring the overall picture of the game.
    Those who play a modified and somehow inverted game - why do you need all this? Why are you trying to make me play redorged eden created for PVE when I'm not interested in PVE? in any case it is not interesting if there is no PVP. Why do you care about CPU balance in the original game and unmodified by third parties? In your reforged eden, everything is still turned inside out and there are generally different laws of the game, like some other game, not the official and original one. This will not affect you in any way, even if tomorrow only the T1 processor level remains in the original game or the T999999 CPU level is added.

    If you do not see something, then this does not mean that it is not. Military ships in 99.9% are not put in the steam workshop due to the preservation of military secrets of the design and location of vulnerable spots, so that you are not beaten with your own weapon.

    I am only stating the obvious facts:
    That often warships are such a square ugliness and that it will not disappear anywhere even if the processor threshold is = T1.
    And also that in such ugly ships there is no hint of Sci-Fi, and such ships are always physically smaller due to the fact that they do not have internal compartments.
    And also the fact that in the current state of affairs with the processor limit = T4 it is practically impossible to create a military vessel capable of withstanding such a flying square deformity. Formula + - ~ = Your light warship T4 in 7.50 size class with decks, internal compartments, a point-comit bow for attracting hits and a hull thickness of 3-6 blocks VS a flying coffin with a body lied in and multiple layers of armor within T4 CPU, which will be a little more maneuverable and have a size class 3-4 no more. 7.50 VS 3.50-4.50 .... Feel the difference right?
    10.50 can only resist toilets up to sizes 5.50-6.50. This is despite the fact that your ship is physically larger because of the internal compartments, and its size class is higher due to the more detail of the hull, more vertices, and the presence of lighting lamps from 10 to 50 pieces, and it requires more thrusters.
    I already wrote above and I will repeat again - if you have not seen the other side of the medal, then this does not mean that the medal has only one side that is visible to everyone. Usually, military ships do not invest in steam workshop, but I want to do it to break this stereotype and show that the game is more interesting and beautiful than it is commonly believed. I have already completed work on 4 military vessels and now i working on 1 more vessel, maybe I still have enough time to finish 1 more vessel. I hope that within 30 days I will complete everything and lay out 6 warships at once with some detailing of compartments, a hull and a + - the spirit of Sci-Fi in the size range from 5.50 to 12.60.

    The number of crew can be physically limited to some value. For example = 10 people. This is logical.
     
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  16. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    We all want the game to be completed. We just have to wait. In the meantime they made modding available even if the game is still in the oven. If players want to leave before it's ready well they can do that, sure, no problem.

    Was way more than that. CPU is not a problem, it's just an incomplete solution. Other components of the solution are mass/ volume, energy consumption, devices characteristics, shields recharge rates and power, etc. And tons of other things, among which some are still undergoing changes, or may not even be in the game before a while.

    I have seen PvP combat and honestly, very personnal opinion on this, very selfish : it looks boring as hell. Players operate ships like they're in 1st person, no sense of mass/ inertia, and 3/4 of the "Oh My This Is Such A COmbat" thrill is watching turrets shoot everywhere with no clue if they hit or not, but hey do they make a noise fest.

    I think that, as much as any CPU unbalance you can come up with, is one of the reasons players played for a while then came to realize that there are tons of other games out there who master physics and ship-to-ship combat way better than Empyrion. Sorry for being honest here.

    And that's also part of why some PvP rants become tiring : Empyrion is not focused only in CV vs CV auto-turret swing party as the ultimate moments of the game. Even if Eleon gives you the T5 - T6 you ask for, in two months you'll be back for something else, because even if a solution is offered and possible right now, you find excuses not to apply it and start the loop back at point 1. But that will not solve all the other issues I mentioned and that you are perfectly well aware of, but may simply just ignore for the time being because they're not constantly in your face.

    Do you play other genres in PvP ? What is your best reference for ship-vs-ship combat ? It's hard to believe anyone would put Empyrion ship combat on top of the list because of what I mentioned, but again that is purely personal. Flying a T-1 or T-25 makes no difference here, it's still non-immersive physics and motion, and auto-turrets based. Ships flying with whole missing sections. Come on...

    If at least foot combat was much more refined, I guess players wouldn't mind even flying on witches brooms...
     
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  17. ravien_ff

    ravien_ff Rear Admiral

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    If the majority of the players enjoy PvE more, then that is what they will naturally want to play.

    There are dozens of PvE scenarios on the workshop but not a single PvP scenario.
    There are way more PvE focused servers than PvP focused ones.
    PvE players have put in the work and appreciate the customization that servers and scenarios can provide to be able to offer a wide variety of game content from pure vanilla game play to highly customized content and everything in between.

    The last time I tried helping PvP players create their own scenarios I was called names that are against the rules to repeat here.
    My opinion is that the PvP community in Empyrion, or at least their most vocal members, lacks creativity and drive. They want someone else to do the work to tailor the game to them, without realizing that about 99% of the player base does not share their preferences.

    If you think people would enjoy PvP, then make a good PvP scenario, put it up on the workshop, run a server with it and see if you can get people to join. I can't and won't do this work for you. This is the work that the PvE community has done for themselves and it's paying off.
    You can't force people to like PvP. All you can do is try to provide a great PvP experience and hope that you attract those who share your preferences.
    Stop trying to shift all the work to others. The developers are unlikely to look at how popular PvE is and how unpopular PvP is and decide to cater to the minority PvP players.
     
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  18. Khazul

    Khazul Rear Admiral

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    Really? I though the PvP crowd for a long time were the only people being catered for while everyone else was suffering from the fallout changes, nerfings etc... ;)
     
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  19. Beasthammer

    Beasthammer Commander

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    What is the reason to have so many factions without their own tech diversity? I mean game should have at least some faction only content which have certain benefits right? Weapons, drives, armor, cpu cores etcetc... without them what is the use? I really like these faction only designs but why isn't there certain loot which would make the game more interesting?
    (Last time when i tried to salvage some zirax trash the only thing i got is player only stuff)
     
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  20. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    I was thinking the exact same thing a few minutes ago, then I checked this thread to see the ongoing "discussion" state.

    In the whole Star Wars games there are laser guns, ion guns, missiles, slow bombs, and not much more. It would have been hard not to share these weapons among all "factions" but they at least made the Alliance have the "orange" lasers, and the Empire with the green ones.

    But like you mention, since Empyrion has lots more diversity in terms of weapons and items, these could be more specific for certain types of aliens/ factions, just like they have distinctive architecture and design styles. Instead of having the T1 - T2 - T3 system, have each "faction" types of devices with diffferent characteristics, for example shields that recharge slower but have higher HP vs another type that is the contrary, so players might want to change types to adapt to situations instead of leaving the T1 on the shelves when T2 is unlocked, making all lower tier items dead weight in the files.

    Sure someone can invoke CPU points to justify going down 1 tier because higher tier costs too much CPU, but that can be changed.
     
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